Discussion: Voting Rights and Election Law

[MessiahDecoy123]

But....but...teh evil Republicanz!!!!

Are you suggesting there's no alterior motive? That the recent voter id push is only being done for fairness.

Sorry to destroy your fantasy but not all policy changes are done with pure intentions.

The ID push done this close to the election is bound to hurt Democrats at the polls. The bias can't be any more obvious.

 

[Kelly]

Are you suggesting there's no alterior motive? That the recent voter id push is onlybeing done for fairness.

Sorry to destroy your fantasy but not all policy changes are done with pure intentions.

The ID push done this close to the election is bound to hurt Democrats at the polls. It can't beany more obvious.

I think what he meant was, in some of these states, they are trying to make it as easily accessible as they can......contrary to what the Dems are putting out that it is the equivalent to a Poll Tax....which is just stupid.

 

[bell110]

Voter IDs, even given for free, are a bad idea. For one, while everybody is complaining that states are strapped for cash, we're going to start giving these things out to everybody free of charge? Who is going to pay for it. And two, it's a needless hurdle for the sake of it.

Imagine what's going to happen if this election comes down to a few hundred votes, and it comes out that thousands of people were turned away from voting.

I really hope this comes back and bites the Republicans on the ass.

 

[Donnie Darko]

While I would prefer requiring photo ID, as the vast majority of people have those or need those for some reason or another (such as driving), there are alternatives if we are going to not require a photo. Everyone is given a social security card and birth certificate, correct? Word case scenario, use one of those. I would prefer photo ID, but the government already gives out several forms of documentation already.

 

[Kelly]

While I would prefer requiring photo ID, as the vast majority of people have those or need those for some reason or another (such as driving), there are alternatives if we are going to not require a photo. Everyone is given a social security card and birth certificate, correct? Word case scenario, use one of those. I would prefer photo ID, but the government already gives out several forms of documentation already.

Without a picture, how do you know it is theirs????? The fact that a good number of illegal immigrants work, and pay taxes through fake Social Security numbers, that doesn't seem like a very good alternative to me.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Without a picture, how do you know it is theirs????? The fact that a good number of illegal immigrants work, and pay taxes through fake Social Security numbers, that doesn't seem like a very good alternative to me.

Very good point. That was really just my "the government already gives every citizen some form of documentation" argument, but I actually fully agree with you.

 

[bell110]

While I would prefer requiring photo ID, as the vast majority of people have those or need those for some reason or another (such as driving), there are alternatives if we are going to not require a photo. Everyone is given a social security card and birth certificate, correct? Word case scenario, use one of those. I would prefer photo ID, but the government already gives out several forms of documentation already.

Some people have lost their social security card and birth certificate. And it cost money to get a new one. Voter ID is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, this is going to cause a bigger problem if it's a close election and thousands of people report that they've been turned away at the booths. We've gone decades without requiring voter ID and it's worked just fine. If it's not broke, don't try and fix it.

 

[SV Fan]

I think what he meant was, in some of these states, they are trying to make it as easily accessible as they can......contrary to what the Dems are putting out that it is the equivalent to a Poll Tax....which is just stupid.

It's not literally a poll tax but if somebody has to go pay money to get a birth certificate or social insurance card so they can obtain that voter ID, it's a round about way of making somebody pay to vote(ie poll tax). Chances are most the people who will have to pay for those things are on the lower scales of the earnings ladder and while 20-25 bucks might not be alot to most people it is to some(factor in the cost of transportation and time).

If the Republicans were serious about creating voter IDs for the sake "of protecting election fraud" but wanted to keep the American public engaged in voting, they would go around the state and have Voter ID registration booths that would make it easy for the less enfranchised people to obtain the correct ID to get the Voter ID both for free, and spend a good 2 years making sure everybody has a chance to get this identification before you implement the laws. It's somewhat obvious that Republican State Senates or Governors are fast tracking these laws in order to disenfranchise large groups of lower income or older people(Ie 2 strong Democratic demographics). It becomes fairly obvious what is going on when you see College ID not being used as proper photo ID(ie people more likely to vote Democrats) but NRA memberships perfectly fine photo ID(Ie people who are more likely to vote Republican)

 

[Kelly]

It's not literally a poll tax but if somebody has to go pay money to get a birth certificate or social insurance card so they can obtain that voter ID, it's a round about way of making somebody pay to vote(ie poll tax). Chances are most the people who will have to pay for those things are on the lower scales of the earnings ladder and while 20-25 bucks might not be alot to most people it is to some(factor in the cost of transportation and time).

If the Republicans were serious about creating voter IDs for the sake "of protecting election fraud" but wanted to keep the American public engaged in voting, they would go around the state and have Voter ID registration booths that would make it easy for the less enfranchised people to obtain the correct ID to get the Voter ID both for free, and spend a good 2 years making sure everybody has a chance to get this identification before you implement the laws. It's somewhat obvious that Republican State Senates or Governors are fast tracking these laws in order to disenfranchise large groups of lower income or older people(Ie 2 strong Democratic demographics). It becomes fairly obvious what is going on when you see College ID not being used as proper photo ID(ie people more likely to vote Democrats) but NRA memberships perfectly fine photo ID(Ie people who are more likely to vote Republican)

Yeah, because...um, why would we want them to prove, they are who they say they are.....yeah....that would be really stupid. Totally unheard of....I began proving who I was early in life....I can't help it that people start needing to do this later in life. Sorry, that they are slow getting to that point.....BUT, to offset that, fine.....if they can prove financial hardship, as in on food stamps, let them do this for free....wouldn't bother me a bit, and I would be happy to pay a little bit more on my DL renewal in order to offset the cost....I do it on my electrical bill each month, no problem making the voting process that much more fraud free. : )

 

[SV Fan]

Yeah, because...um, why would we want them to prove, they are who they say they are.....yeah....that would be really stupid. Totally unheard of....I began proving who I was early in life....I can't help it that people start needing to do this later in life. Sorry, that they are slow getting to that point.....BUT, to offset that, fine.....if they can prove financial hardship, as in on food stamps, let them do this for free....wouldn't bother me a bit, and I would be happy to pay a little bit more on my DL renewal in order to offset the cost....I do it on my electrical bill each month, no problem making the voting process that much more fraud free. : )

I have no problem with trying to make people use voter IDs, my issue is with the way this is being fast tracked. As I said they should have came up with a plan how to implement the system in a few years that would try prevent all the potential problems doing it so fast might create(but let's be honest here the potential problems it will create is a big reason they are fast tracking these laws). Maybe all poor and old people should join the NRA, I am guessing that's fairly easy place to get a photo ID

By the way I found this add from 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all

In 5-Year Effort, Scant Evidence of Voter Fraud

Five years after the Bush administration began a crackdown on voter fraud, the Justice Department has turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections, according to court records and interviews.

Although Republican activists have repeatedly said fraud is so widespread that it has corrupted the political process and, possibly, cost the party election victories, about 120 people have been charged and 86 convicted as of last year.

So 86 cases of voter fraud in 5 years. I am guessing a few slipped through the cracks but even then if the number was 100 or 1000 times larger it's still a statistically insignificant amount of people compared to the hundreds of millions that vote over a 5 year period(with 1 presidential election in that period). While I have no problem introducing Voter IDs, I don't really see the need for it to be fast tracked at this point in time

 

[Kelly]

I have no problem with trying to make people use voter IDs, my issue is with the way this is being fast tracked. As I said they should have came up with a plan how to implement the system in a few years that would try prevent all the potential problems doing it so fast might create(but let's be honest here the potential problems it will create is a big reason they are fast tracking these laws). Maybe all poor and old people should join the NRA, I am guessing that's fairly easy place to get a photo ID

By the way I found this add from 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all

So 86 cases of voter fraud in 5 years. I am guessing a few slipped through the cracks but even then if the number was 100 or 1000 times larger it's still a statistically insignificant amount of people compared to the hundreds of millions that vote over a 5 year period(with 1 presidential election in that period). While I have no problem introducing Voter IDs, I don't really see the need for it to be fast tracked at this point in time

Well, actually I think Kentucky might change that number, and honestly, we have no clue what the actual number is....those are just the ones who got caught....lol

BUT, to me, why do you need to do this to take care of a problem?....

Why not do it because its the logical thing to do, and something that probably should have been done a long time ago......ooooh wait, this is about politics....nevermind.....logic...what was I thinking.

I also, have a sinking feeling....that this Presidential campaign as dirty as it is getting....will bleed over into individual precincts....and that really has nothing to do with Obama or Romney, it has to do with people doing most anything to make sure their people win...and I think this may be the year that trumps all others.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yeah, because...um, why would we want them to prove, they are who they say they are.....yeah....that would be really stupid. Totally unheard of....I began proving who I was early in life....I can't help it that people start needing to do this later in life. Sorry, that they are slow getting to that point.....BUT, to offset that, fine.....if they can prove financial hardship, as in on food stamps, let them do this for free....wouldn't bother me a bit, and I would be happy to pay a little bit more on my DL renewal in order to offset the cost....I do it on my electrical bill each month, no problem making the voting process that much more fraud free. : )

What is this "fraud" you speak of?

Can you direct me to any helpful stats or studies before we lock out thousands of voters from easy, last-minute voting.

 

[SV Fan]

Well, actually I think Kentucky might change that number, and honestly, we have no clue what the actual number is....those are just the ones who got caught....lol

BUT, to me, why do you need to do this to take care of a problem?....

Why not do it because its the logical thing to do, and something that probably should have been done a long time ago......ooooh wait, this is about politics....nevermind.....logic...what was I thinking.

I don't see where in my statement I didn't say it shouldn't be done , I can see the logic doing it but I do believe a proper implementation should be structured to make it go off with as little amount of pitfalls as possible. I personally don't see what's wrong wanting to have a systems created that won't cause any issues(and let's be honest here there will be more problems with people who are legal US citizens not being able to vote this election due to these Voter ID rules that were fast tracked then there was actual cases of voter fraud Bush and Co found in 5 years, but hey they are most likely going to be poor and old so who cares right)

 

[Kelly]

I don't see where in my statement I didn't say it shouldn't be done , I can see the logic doing it but I do believe a proper implementation should be structured to make it go off with as little amount of pitfalls as possible. I personally don't see what's wrong wanting to have a systems created that won't cause any issues(and let's be honest here there will be more problems with people who are legal US citizens not being able to vote this election due to these Voter ID rules that were fast tracked then there was actual cases of voter fraud Bush and Co found in 5 years, but hey they are most likely going to be poor and old so who cares right)

We have systems created....they can do it through the DMV, simple transportation could be set up (which has been talked about by those states wanting to do this...) same way as car registrations are done, which many large scale grocery stores could do that....set up a camera to do basic passport type photos, we have computer systems already in place in these stores, and could be set up in churches, community centers, etc....say....during the month of June, to bring those people in without transportation....and its done. My school does 900 IDs in 1 day for our students. They would need to bring in something that proves who they are....EVERYONE, EVERYONE, SHOULD be able to prove who they are....if they can't....there is something wrong, and that CERTAINLY NEEDS TO BE TAKEN CARE OF....that is just wrong. So those problems could be dealt with at that time, but not having ANY KIND of identification, needs to be taken care of....that is just basic.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I'm not a democrat or a republican and I am strongly in favor of a voter ID law. We have to provide ID for things like buying alcohol, buying rated M games, buying tickets for rated R movies, taking tests such as the SAT. So why shouldn't we provide ID for what are the most important decisions we are going to make for the direction our country goes in? Anything that makes out voting process appear more legitimate and accurate is good, and this also means getting rid of electronic voting machines and retaining the paper ballot system so we have a hard copy trail of each and every vote.

 

[bell110]

If you already think providing ID is idiotic in certain cases, why add another to the list, especially one of the most important decisions we are going to make? Plus, none of those things are rights.

The voter ID isn't about making things fair, it's about shaving just enough Obama votes out of the election so he'll lose, the exact opposite of legitimate and authentic.

 

[Kelly]

The reasoning behind doing this is certainly transparent. It is as transparent as the Dems reason for NOT wanting to do it....doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do, and something that should have been done a long time ago.

 

[bell110]

I don't think it is the right thing to do regardless of whether the Democrats are being genuine.

 

[Kelly]

I don't think it is the right thing to do regardless of whether the Democrats are being genuine.

Really? Its not right that you should prove who you are in order to vote?

ok...

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

You should absolutely have to prove who you are in order to vote.

 

[bell110]

Not if it does more harm than good. I'll take the 10 cases of voter fraud over the potential thousands of people turned away from the polls.

 

[Kelly]

Not if it does more harm than good. I'll take the 10 cases of voter fraud over the potential thousands of people turned away from the polls.

Those numbers you keep giving do not reflect the voter fraud in municipal elections, state elections, etc....and if you think it is ok for people to go into a voting precinct and vote, without having to prove they are who they say they are.....ok. IMO, get those 1000s some viable ID, which everyone should have anyway....

Wow, ya know....I bet we turn away 1000s when they try and register their car, because they don't have ID....that sucks...so unfair.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Owning a car is a luxury and privilege.

Voting is an essential right.

 

[Kelly]

Owning a car is a luxury and privilege.

Voting is an essential right.

Sooooo, because its a right, you shouldn't have to show that you are "you"....

ok...

hmm...

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sooooo, because its a right, you shouldn't have to show that you are "you"....

ok...

hmm...

No but the ID shouldn't be implemented mostly for a partisan political advantage and it should done in a way that doesn 't create a greater obstacles for poor people who much money or transportation.


If you charged military service members to pay 15 dollars for absentee voting expenses Republicans would be screaming ”poll tax”, ”unfair”, ”dirty politics”, etc.