Discussion: WikiLeaks

[Marx]

It was justified going in after Bin Laden at the time. It's pretty well known that he is in PAKISTAN however, and al Queda is not headquartered in Afghanistan. There is ZERO reason for American boys and girls to be losing their lives there right now. And the American people increasingly agree with me on this particular subject.

Whether anyone likes it or not, the US cannot just abandon Afghanistan without some form of a stable government or it will be worse than it was before we ever invaded.

That's not what I said at all and you know it. I was simply pointing out we have more reasons to be in those places than Afghanistan.

Whether that is what you were saying or not, I just found it interesting that you rail against 'typical warmongering american presidents' and then present three more options for war.

I'm not going to provide proof for something that has been so extensively covered in the news.

It's been so extensively covered in the news that I have not seen a story on it? I watch the news quite often and have seen nothing of it.

I think that's all a BS copout.

You can call it whatever you want. I'll call it what it is - an executive order for the closing of Gitmo was signed. The issue is what to do with the people who are there.

He's just as bad on wanting to curtail our rights here at home. His admin. issues as many or more denials to requests made under FOIA, Freedom of Information Act, as the Bush admin. did. And the Obama admin. supports the renewal of the PATRIOT ACT. He is still having us fight in an unnecessary war abroad, wasting lives and treasure. He still is taking a COMPLETELY un-Constitutional, Draconian stance in regard to the rights of U.S. citizens abroad.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[LOBO3315a]

Wow, I had heard there were people who thought Obama wasn't liberal enough...and I haven't actually met any.

Until now....

 

[Franklin Richards]

Where were you during the summer of healthcare? Every liberal, including myself, thought Obama caved and should have pushed the Single Payer.

 

[Violet Lantern]

Where were you during the summer of healthcare? Every liberal, including myself, thought Obama caved and should have pushed the Single Payer.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Has he been living under a rock?

Over half of Obama's base(note: not over half of ALL registered Democrats, talking about the liberal base) thinks he isn't liberal enough, for God's sake. It's nothing new, so don't try to paint me like some extraordinarily far out there Lefty. I'm just a Lefty, and you aren't used to actually meeting any. It's kind of like what the one non-American guy on here who's studied our politics said about how our politics are essentially just a choice between conservative and REALLY conservative. The American idea of what is "Left wing" and "Right wing" is severely tilted to the right. By European standards I'm actually just center left. In Europe even most of what is considered the Right Wing does not oppose the existence of a social safety net. The idea would be laughed right off the political stage there. At one point, maybe just 20-30 years ago, it would have been laughed off the stage here. However the American political spectrum has shifted significantly to the Right ever since the Evil Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken.

 

[BlackLantern]

there is a difference between a 'social safety net' and 'nanny state'....sad to say most Americans want a nanny state

our spirit of ingenuity and toughness is slowly dying

 

[Violet Lantern]

there is a difference between a 'social safety net' and 'nanny state'....sad to say most Americans want a nanny state

our spirit of ingenuity and toughness is slowly dying

We'd be SO much more creative and tough if we made poor families fend for themselves with out food stamps. If the unemployed had to fend for themselves without unemployment benefits. If the old had to work to the day they die with no Social Security benefits.

 

[BlackLantern]

Social Security is going to be dead inside of 20 years anyway if something doesn't change ....Im 31 now and there is no guarantee that the social security system I pay into now is going to be available to me when I hit that age

I'm actually thinking of pulling my 401K out and just stashing money somewhere (IRA, savings, something)

 

[Kelly]

When those programs, more specifically Food Stamps and Unemployment are not run in a way that it is to "help someone back on their feet" to again, "walk on their own"....but instead seeks to "carry them" indefinitely, it is then a nanny state....which is what BL is talking about....it is not right, nor is it sustainable. When money use in these programs is not efficiently and effectively used, then it is a waste of my tax dollars.

I think we need all 3 of these programs, but not in a way we are using them today.

 

[BlackLantern]

yea...when people look at unemployment as a "paid vacation", that's a problem

my company (I just found out) has been bought by a competitor....I may not have a job at the end of June/July....Im looking for another job already...I will not be caught with my pants down

 

[StorminNorman]

Whether anyone likes it or not, the US cannot just abandon Afghanistan without some form of a stable government or it will be worse than it was before we ever invaded.

I don't know about you, but I am tired of my tax dollars going to stabilize a government that can't walk on its own. I fail to see how we gain anything from Afghanistan anymore. I am as tired of Afghan Welfare as I am American Welfare.

 

[Kelly]

I agree......every bone in my body says.....GET THE HELL OUT.

 

[BlackLantern]

yea...granted its going to turn into the wild wild west when we do leave....but it's time to pull up stakes

 

[StorminNorman]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Has he been living under a rock?

Over half of Obama's base(note: not over half of ALL registered Democrats, talking about the liberal base) thinks he isn't liberal enough, for God's sake. It's nothing new, so don't try to paint me like some extraordinarily far out there Lefty. I'm just a Lefty, and you aren't used to actually meeting any. It's kind of like what the one non-American guy on here who's studied our politics said about how our politics are essentially just a choice between conservative and REALLY conservative. The American idea of what is "Left wing" and "Right wing" is severely tilted to the right. By European standards I'm actually just center left. In Europe even most of what is considered the Right Wing does not oppose the existence of a social safety net. The idea would be laughed right off the political stage there. At one point, maybe just 20-30 years ago, it would have been laughed off the stage here. However the American political spectrum has shifted significantly to the Right ever since the Evil Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken.

We'd be SO much more creative and tough if we made poor families fend for themselves with out food stamps. If the unemployed had to fend for themselves without unemployment benefits. If the old had to work to the day they die with no Social Security benefits.

Social Security is going to be dead inside of 20 years anyway if something doesn't change ....Im 31 now and there is no guarantee that the social security system I pay into now is going to be available to me when I hit that age

I'm actually thinking of pulling my 401K out and just stashing money somewhere (IRA, savings, something)

When those programs, more specifically Food Stamps and Unemployment are not run in a way that it is to "help someone back on their feet" to again, "walk on their own"....but instead seeks to "carry them" indefinitely, it is then a nanny state....which is what BL is talking about....it is not right, nor is it sustainable. When money use in these programs is not efficiently and effectively used, then it is a waste of my tax dollars.

I think we need all 3 of these programs, but not in a way we are using them today.

If those programs are ever going to be both moral and efficiently ran, they HAVE to be done at a state level. That not only allows greater efficiency due to the natural results of competition (50 states > monopoly) but allows states to opt to have no safety net at all, which gives individuals at least a chance at true liberty. It's a compromise I am willing to live with since I understand the fact I will likely never see my preferred stance during the span of my lifetime.

 

[Kelly]

If those programs are ever going to be both moral and efficiently ran, they HAVE to be done at a state level. That not only allows greater efficiency due to the natural results of competition (50 states > monopoly) but allows states to opt to have no safety net at all, which gives individuals at least a chance at true liberty. It's a compromise I am willing to live with since I understand the fact I will likely never see my preferred stance during the span of my lifetime.

Totally agree with this...

 

[StorminNorman]

I was talking with my Congressman the other day and I made a point that he claimed to have never heard before, and that is the National Security concerns regarding Federal entitlement programs.

The idea is this, when the Federal Government is operating programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicare and Welfare, their operation is a National concern. If any or all of these programs are insolvent and become monetary black holes, it puts the economy of the entire nation in danger.

If these are done at the State level, if Massachusetts universal health insurance program fails, it's awful for the state and does have negative consequences for the nation, but it doesn't pose any truly significant threat to the economy.

 

[BlackLantern]

I don't want to talk to my Congressman...Blumenthal is a class a d-bag and Liebermann is quitting

 

[Kelly]

I talk with Gene Green probably more than any of the others in my state.

 

[StorminNorman]

I don't want to talk to my Congressman...Blumenthal is a class a d-bag and Liebermann is quitting

He's my client.

I haven't mentioned it on the site yet, but I was made Economic Consultant for an influential Republican earlier this month. I didn't even apply for the job, just had a conversation over lunch and he hired me on the spot. He gave me his campaign credit card and asked me to run to the book store and buy him reading material right then and there. Not bad for a 21-year old at-the-time barista.

 

[BlackLantern]

he's an ass....both of them are....Blumenthal more so because of his anti-business activities

 

[Violet Lantern]

I talk with Gene Green probably more than any of the others in my state.

My Congressman is Louie "Terror babies are gonna git us!!!1" Gohmert. *shudder*

Because unfortunately I live in Tyyyyllllerrr(imagine a goofy accent). A clod-hopping, hick town. I can't wait until I can at least get moved to Dallas, and eventually out of this state.

 

[BlackLantern]

isn't Tyler the "we don't let the darkies buy homes here" town??

 

[Violet Lantern]

isn't Tyler the "we don't let the darkies buy homes here" town??

Dear lord. No, I don't think so. It's really bad here but not like THAT I don't think. There IS a little "town"(more like a rural community) up in the mountains of Alabama that's known for all being owned/leased out by the Sons of Confederate Veterans I believe, that won't sell to non-whites. It's called Grant Mountain.

 

[StorminNorman]

I just drove by a giant confederate battle flag on my way to Birmingham.

I understand respect for the Confederacy, but the use of the battle flag is simply racist.

 

[BlackLantern]

the Confederacy was a dubious time in this countrys history and I understand the respect for it as well, but it has been co-opted by the less enlightened

 

[StorminNorman]

the Confederacy was a dubious time in this countrys history and I understand the respect for it as well, but it has been co-opted by the less enlightened

Confederacy was right on the Constitution, wrong on slavery

What's amazing is that when one studies economic history, it really does give credence to the "the war wasn't about slavery" bit. More than once I have had it mentioned how ridiculous it was for the South to secede after Lincoln's inauguration when his message was relatively moderate on the peculiar institution. The answer? Lincoln TRIPLED tariffs (tariffs, not slavery, almost caused the secession of South Carolina under Andrew Jackson), and since tariffs effected the agrarian South more than the industrial North, the results were the South paying 80% of the money collected by the tariff with tariffs adding 40% to the total price of foreign goods.

Lincoln's inaugural address on the issue?

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so...

"In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

So the message was "yo south, I don't care about your slaves, but you will pay my tariff".

The result?

Secession.

Now obviously slavery played a role to the escalation of tension, but the continued notion that it was the only issue is a fairy tale deliberately told to tarnish States Rights with the taint of racist. Many of the Confederacies greatest leaders, including Lee and Davis, were not slave owners.

The South fought for the Constitution, the North fought for the Nation.