Discussion: WikiLeaks

[StorminNorman]

He's as much of a hero as John Wilkes Booth.

You can make a case for Booth, hard to make one for Manning.

 

[LOBO3315a]

Apologists can downplay this all they want, but using lies and false pretexts for reasoning of war is criminal. I don't understand what's so hard to get about that. There's no sane reason to defend the suppression of that information. None. "Because it makes us look bad" is not a sane reason. People are ****ing dying every day, tell their families that. Nope, can't do that either, because then that soldier's death would be in vain, he wouldn't be a "hero". And that brings up another point.

The military does not serve us. They haven't for a long time. They serve the interests of corporations and banks and war is one of their best businesses. I know there are people that have served on this board and please understand I'm not doubting any of the reasons of why you volunteered, I don't doubt your conviction at all of what you believed to be the right thing to do. If it helped you, helped you get in college, if you made good out of it or whatever, great, more power to you, none of that changes the fact that the military overall is just a tool for business. Not for freedom, not for justice, but the bottom line, profit.

If that's the case, then why is the US going into debt to fund these conflicts? If I were an accountant trying to balance the ROI on these 'investments', I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Every time the military is deployed, there's a loss in money. Speaking as a guy who server under Bush Sr, and Clinton, we were always told to find a way to "Do more with less." Especially under Clinton.

I'm still trying to figure out who made a profit off of us pushing Saddam out of Kuwait. Maybe you can enlighten me.

 

[Kelly]

If that's the case, then why is the US going into debt to fund these conflicts? If I were an accountant trying to balance the ROI on these 'investments', I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Every time the military is deployed, there's a loss in money. Speaking as a guy who server under Bush Sr, and Clinton, we were always told to find a way to "Do more with less." Especially under Clinton.

I'm still trying to figure out who made a profit off of us pushing Saddam out of Kuwait. Maybe you can enlighten me.

There is sooooo much more to our debt than defense spending....I think you should actually look more at Bush's TARP spending and Obama's Stimilus (aka Spending) package....

This is coming from someone that does not believe we should be in Iraq OR Afghanistan.....but I'm also a realist....and defense spending is not the culprit. I also think we should cut 25% across the board, everything should be on the cutting board, including defense spending.

 

[Paradoxium]

It's a pretty sad when you can throw out the ENTIRE military and defense budget and it is not enough to address federal budget deficit.

 

[Kelly]

It's what 16% of the budget.....? Yep, even cutting it 25% won't put a dent in the debt...

 

[Matt]

Holy crap indeed. I'm not a conspiracy theory nut or anything, but this can't be good for him. If the right politicians were pissed about it, they could pressure for a harsher sentence. Which I know shouldn't happen, but let's face it...a celebrity can run someone over drunk and get a slap on the wrist (mainly due to fat bank accounts), and a normal citizen do the same and get manslaughter. If they wanted an example to be made to prevent further leaks, this guy could be it. Then of course on the other hand too harsh and he becomes a martyr, and ppl will get an even bigger desire to know what's so important to enforce such a harsh punishment over.


To play devil's advocate (with myself lol), he had to know what he was getting into as well. I doubt while leaking all of those documents that he didn't atleast somewhere in his subconcious have some lingering feeling that he could be caught, and that he would atleast be imprisoned down the line. No way they would leave something like top secret document leaks alone without exhausting all resources to track down who did it.

He committed treason. That is the penalty for treason. Its not about covering anything up. My guess is, he will receive life imprisonment.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Or a high profile pardon.

 

[Paroxysm]

Okay lets put aside Manning's guilt or innocence and ask "what should Bradley Manning have done when he saw evidence of war crimes, other crimes and constant deception of the American people and others?

Should he have hidden the evidence? Taken it up a chain of command? Or expose it? or what?

Manning exposed it not because he is a traitor but because he is a patriot that wants to make the United States a more perfect union.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

Okay lets put aside Manning's guilt or innocence and ask "what should Bradley Manning have done when he saw evidence of war crimes, other crimes and constant deception of the American people and others?

Should he have hidden the evidence? Taken it up a chain of command? Or expose it? or what?

Manning exposed it not because he is a traitor but because he is a patriot that wants to make the United States a more perfect union.

I gurantee you if he had gone through the chain of command we would've never even known about any of this.

 

[Zar25]

I gurantee you if he had gone through the chain of command we would've never even known about any of this.

And the sad story of this world just passes on without a care.... The military hasn't executed anyone in years so I think Manning is safe from the death penalty. Still... life imprisonment looks very likely. That sucks man.

 

[Sloth7d]

Okay lets put aside Manning's guilt or innocence and ask "what should Bradley Manning have done when he saw evidence of war crimes, other crimes and constant deception of the American people and others?

Should he have hidden the evidence? Taken it up a chain of command? Or expose it? or what?

Manning exposed it not because he is a traitor but because he is a patriot that wants to make the United States a more perfect union.

No one will understand that. No one wants to. To a lot of people America is a perfect and just nation not because it is just and perfect but because it puts on a strong appearance of it. Somewhere a Glaucon is shaking his head, unsurprised at it all.

 

[Marx]

UPDATE: ACTIVISTS PROTEST 'INHUMANE' TREATMENT OF MANNING
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...s-protest-abuse-bradley-manning_n_838006.html

 

[Kelly]

They aren't going for the death penalty....they should be happy with that...

 

[Dr. Evil]

Bradley Manning has brought shame to anyone with the last name Manning.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

They aren't going for the death penalty....they should be happy with that...

Yeah, never mind he's a human being with rights, just be happy they don't kill him. Do you read the craziness you write?

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Manning exposed it not because he is a traitor but because he is a patriot that wants to make the United States a more perfect union.

No, he is a traitor. As a member of the armed forces, he's held to a higher standard than the average citizen and is expected to keep confidential information as such regardless of what it is.

And he didn't reveal it because he's a patriot and wants the US to be better, he did it because he was vindictive over DADT.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

Someone explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old:

A person reveals the crimes of the super elite (of which we wouldn't have known of otherwise) who, under their rules, say that because he revealed those crimes, he himself is a criminal, that a "higher standard" would be to keep your mouth shut and not reveal the crimes, because it doesn't really make us look good.

How does any rational thinking person take the side of the super elite criminals that has all the power and everything to lose? They're basically saying "Hey this guy is going to expose us to YOU, our own traitorous actions and interests, and we can't have that so we have to label him what's he's showing us to be." Why are we LISTENING TO THESE PEOPLE ANYMORE? Why do we even trust them? They've been lying to us.

I don't get it. We all say we want to know about corruption, but we get this person who has basically ruined his life for that annnnnnd we're going after him. Saying things like "Be happy they aren't killing you" and calling him a "traitor". You know how absolutely ****ing hypocritical, and not to mention brainwashed, that sounds?

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Someone explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

I think that's over simplifying things just a tiny bit, don't you think? Especially when, you know, some of those lies led to countless people ending up dead? That's a pretty ****ed up sense of right and wrong. If it's wrong to expose the crimes of your own country, what separates us from everything we say we are against and say we are better than? Maybe the the truth is that we're not. We're the same once you get right down to it.

But people, like Marx and Kel, grasp desperately onto to this false ideal, this false image of America, it's system, thinking that we are different. There are TONS of those people, tons that buy into that crap hook, line and sinker. Why? Why BS yourself like that?

 

[Spidey-Bat]

You asked me to explain it like you're a 5 year old and that's what I did.

 

[Paroxysm]

I gurantee you if he had gone through the chain of command we would've never even known about any of this.

Oh, I know. Manning wasn't stupid. He knew they'd sweep it under the rug. Isn't that standard military practice?

No one will understand that. No one wants to. To a lot of people America is a perfect and just nation not because it is just and perfect but because it puts on a strong appearance of it. Somewhere a Glaucon is shaking his head, unsurprised at it all.

That's pretty sad.

No, he is a traitor. As a member of the armed forces, he's held to a higher standard than the average citizen and is expected to keep confidential information as such regardless of what it is.

And he didn't reveal it because he's a patriot and wants the US to be better, he did it because he was vindictive over DADT.

It was Bradley Manning’s duty to report that murders had taken place. Manning neglected to use the chain of command to report the crime, because he lost faith in the chain of command’s willingness to take the initiative against the criminal act.

The other information that Manning is alleged to have released did not provide information of troop movements, operations, troop strength, tactics or strategy. While the information may have been embarrassing, it in no way rises to the level of providing intelligence harmful to the military’s mission.

 

[Paroxysm]

I think that's over simplifying things just a tiny bit, don't you think? Especially when, you know, some of those lies led to countless people ending up dead? That's a pretty ****ed up sense of right and wrong. If it's wrong to expose the crimes of your own country, what separates us from everything we say we are against and say we are better than? Maybe the the truth is that we're not. We're the same once you get right down to it.

But people, like Marx and Kel, grasp desperately onto to this false ideal, this false image of America, it's system, thinking that we are different. There are TONS of those people, tons that buy into that crap hook, line and sinker. Why? Why BS yourself like that?

Totally agree with you.

 

[LOBO3315a]

Sounds like a trial is the perfect way for it to be decided whether he committed treason or not. If he did, then throw him in for the rest of his natural life.

If he didn't, hail him as a hero for doing the right thing. Personally, I prefer to have all the facts before hailing or condemning.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

You asked me to explain it like you're a 5 year old and that's what I did.

That's how you would explain it to a kid? That you listen to the criminal organizations that say what this guy did was wrong? Seriously, is it just me or does that sound crazy to anyone else? Manning is only "wrong" because they say so. Imagine that, a criminal that is exposed as such labeling the person who outed them was wrong, that he's the one who needs to be locked up.

 

[Bat-Mite]

That's how you would explain it to a kid? That you listen to the criminal organizations that say what this guy did was wrong? Seriously, is it just me or does that sound crazy to anyone else? Manning is only "wrong" because they say so. Imagine that, a criminal that is exposed as such labeling the person who outed them was wrong, that he's the one who needs to be locked up.