Sequels Do we really have that many villains left?

[IamProdigy]

Raimi could keep up with "Who REALLY killed my Uncle?" and have Shocker a suspect and then Rhino, then Vulture and it turns out that the true killer was the Beetle.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

I think we have plenty of great remaining villains:

Lizard
Mysterio
Kraven
Electro
Hobgoblin (I would like to see him in SM6)
Vulture
Spider Slayers (by Smythes)
Carnage (not a fan, but he is popular)
Scorpion

And on...Heck, guys like Shocker and Rhino would be good cameo villains.

Point is, at 1-2 villains a movie, they will never run out of quality villains in these movies.

BINGO! We still have plenty of good villains left. Though I believe Smythe won't come in due to: "Daredevil" owns the rights to The Kingpin.

However, I do think Shocker and Rhino should be used as filler or cameo villains.

 

[Vaportrail]

It's like the battle that's not even worth fighting, sometimes.

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-Bite]

It's not just a matter of how many villains do we have left. It's also a matter of how many things can we do in peter's life. Just because we got 20 villains left doesn't mean we have enough stories left to make a butload of movies.

 

[UltimateJustin]

It's not just a matter of how many villains do we have left. It's also a matter of how many things can we do in peter's life. Just because we got 20 villains left doesn't mean we have enough stories left to make a butload of movies.

Not true, the "villain comes from Peter's personal life and affects his growth" formula worked in the first two and exploded in the third and should be dropped. The problem with a continuous coming-of-age story like Spiderman is that at some point the character has come of age. You can continue to make good movies and tell good stories, they will just have to be interesting stories about about the character and his struggle to defeat some enemy. As long as there are still strong characters who are written realistically and enough humor and action to entertain, theres no reason why you should stop just because you cant figure out anything else Peter needs to learn. James Bond has been around for one hundred years and hasnt learned anything.

 

[DACrowe]

1. Bond has been around for 50 years (45 in cinema).

2. Peter ain't Bond and if the series goes that route, than it is just going to be depressing.

3. You're right that the coming of age thing kind of reached its conclusion in SM3. But it still has to be about Peter as a character and his life journey. If it is just him batting different villains every film it iwll grow stale and boring. The marriage angle can still be tackled adn I think it should in SM4. After that it will be much harder to keep these movies interesting. If it is just hero vs. villain it will become a boring SFX affair--like Transformers.

Just saying.

 

[Vaportrail]

I think you're taking "coming of age" a little too literally. You can be 80 years old and still get a life lesson.
Spider-Man has always been learning throughout his comics. Often there's a "moral of the story" bit near the end of an issue, or storyline. Aunt May is the tool through which we see this quite a bit in the film, and then Peter asserts his stance over the issue by the end of the film.

It's not that he can't learn from his villains, it's that he should now have more to bring to the table, and so should they.

And like I've been saying, of the remaining list, good luck finding that in some of them. The 'shallow' villains would feel like the movie Sandman over and over again. You can pair any of the S6 (or other villains) up, and have three movies about them.... but why? What changes for Peter here?
If there's no dramatic change, and "they will just have to be interesting stories about about the character and his struggle to defeat some enemy", then you'll fulfill the wishes of many of the fanboys, and no one else will care.

Story comes first, taking priority, but that doesn't mean that it's the first thing imagined or created. Sometimes it helps to know the villain in order to begin framing that structure, but the story should never "have to be" anything so something else can be shown.
That's the problem with SM3.

-Vaportrail

 

[DACrowe]

^^ Indeed (coughVenomcough).

 

[UltimateJustin]

I've never seen him drive a car so in SM4 his life lesson can be learning how to drive. Its good to know how to drive even if you arent going to own a car of your own. Throw in the Rhino and as the guy who refuses to drive cause a long time ago he had a driving test and panicked or something, and thats the reason why he never got to take out the girl he liked, leading him to a life of crime, and I dont see how that wouldnt work on film.

 

[Blader5489]

And like I've been saying, of the remaining list, good luck finding that in some of them. The 'shallow' villains would feel like the movie Sandman over and over again. You can pair any of the S6 (or other villains) up, and have three movies about them.... but why? What changes for Peter here?

That's up for the writer to decide. A villain should never have to be limited by its character in the comics.

Story comes first, taking priority, but that doesn't mean that it's the first thing imagined or created. Sometimes it helps to know the villain in order to begin framing that structure, but the story should never "have to be" anything so something else can be shown.

You're certainly one to talk.

 

[kevin00]

If the Venom movie is never made (which I doubt it will) a Scorpion, Carnage movie would be cool. Having Spiderman finding a was to defeat Carnage and the suit bonds to Scorpion, like in modern comics

 

[Mr Jide]

Raimi could keep up with "Who REALLY killed my Uncle?" and have Shocker a suspect and then Rhino, then Vulture and it turns out that the true killer was the Beetle.

and then you turn on cnn news to find out that Raimi had been savagely murdered by a group of spider-man fanatics.

 

[Mr Jide]

I've never seen him drive a car so in SM4 his life lesson can be learning how to drive. Its good to know how to drive even if you arent going to own a car of your own. Throw in the Rhino and as the guy who refuses to drive cause a long time ago he had a driving test and panicked or something, and thats the reason why he never got to take out the girl he liked, leading him to a life of crime, and I dont see how that wouldnt work on film.

Did you not see sm2?

That film clearly showed that he could drive and wtf is up with the rest of your post?

 

[Slipping_Halo]

First of all, I think that they made a big mistake throwing Venom into SM3 like that because it took the massiveness of that character and forced it into this tiny window just for the sake of saying that he's in the movie. There was a huge story arc that could have been built up and built up and really paid off, but because including Venom was a serious afterthought, everything was done half-assed and didn't come out as well as it could have. I personally think Raimi should have stuck to his guns and kept the original screenplay with the Vulture with the only compromise being that the black suit storyline will begin in this film.

I do understand the possibility of Raimi not coming back and therefore the prospect of Venom became much more urgent, but I think that in the end they ruined the climax of such a huge character and instead threw him on as a meager addition to barely satiate fans-not to mention how completely wrong for the role Topher Grace was.

As for future sequels, if they DON'T bring Raimi back they are committing suicide. If I were them I'd pay whatever it takes to get them back, because it's a guaranteed blockbuster smash every friggin' time. If Raimi doesn't come back, Toby won't come back, and that's serious. It will ruin everything because they've had such a great run so far. Also, it will give Sam a chance to do a little better because, although I did enjoy SM3, I think it is the weakest of the three films and Sam can definitely do better than that.

And as for the villains and the life lessons thing, you never stop learning. There is always some way for a person to better himself, and Spidey is no different. I think that Raimi's formula of binding the villain and the central themes of the films is a fantastic idea that is perfectly suited for Spider-Man because his villains are so closely tied to him personally anyway. It's a very nice way to artistically frame the films to have the villain basically be a manifestation of that particular crisis. It's all a big metaphor, which I think works wonderfully; it just doesn't have to be so clean cut. The theme could be less personal and more work-related. He can't be everywhere at once, he has to work hard to balance everything going on in his life, etc. You could come up with tons of stuff.

 

[lordofthenerds]

Here's the way I want them to do it: Introduce the mysterious small-time crook, Max Dillon. Dillon has a wife and a dying son who has a cane and needs medical attention for an unspecified illness. Dillon jumps onto a test site for an expermiment involving electricity. The scientists running the site will notice a change in the silicon mass, but they come to the conclusion that it's probably just a lizard and it will crawl off once they start up the lightning. After the experiment, Dillon generates the power of electricity and has become Electro. He picks up the locket of his dying son with all of the will-power he posesses, he will find a cure and he'll do whatever it takes.

Later it is revealed Electro was the true killer of Uncle Ben, Flint Marko and Caradine were just accomplices. It just looked like Marko was the one who pulled the trigger because he was the one standing close to Uncle Ben. Sandman also was full of horsepoop when he told Peter his soppy story about killing Uncle Ben; he just wanted to float away.

 

[BAT_WING]

well after the shocking treatment the gave venom he needs to be redone and if they wont redo him they have to at least do carnage and tell a proper symbiote storry none of this 3 secs here and there.

i mean he didnt even call himlsef venom he talked with a normal voive or screamed

and nowhere is he called venom in the film excpet the end credits.

bring back veniom he desrved to be treated better than he was,

 

[UltimateJustin]

Did you not see sm2?

That film clearly showed that he could drive and wtf is up with the rest of your post?

Thats true I havent seen it since it came out on digital versatile disc. So I guess that plot point wouldnt make sense. Maybe it could be something else like swimming. Alot of people have problems manuevering in the water so just take my initial plot layout and change it to swimming. Maybe the climax could involve the highdive, with Spiderman having to overcome his fears of the highdive like I did. Well I ahvent yet but I will by the time SM4 comes out.

 

[Visionary]

First of all, I think that they made a big mistake throwing Venom into SM3 like that because it took the massiveness of that character and forced it into this tiny window just for the sake of saying that he's in the movie.

That's what fanboys get for kicking and screaming "we want Venom in SM3" for three years straight, I couldn't be more happy that he's dead, simply because of Venom fans damning all other villains because of him. This is the part where I say, the less they listen to fans the better.

 

[UltimateJustin]

That's what fanboys get for kicking and screaming "we want Venom in SM3" for three years straight, I couldn't be more happy that he's dead, simply because of Venom fans damning all other villains because of him. This is the part where I say, the less they listen to fans the better.

I agree that the less they listen to fans, the better, but I disagree that a strong majority wanted Venom in 3. Also, its good to listen to fans when they're like "dont cast Freddy Prinze Jr" and "have good characterization over mindless action", but for the most part fans dont say stuff like that, they just complain.

 

[Visionary]

I disagree that a strong majority wanted Venom in 3.

Did you view any of the polls of villains people wanted to see in SM3, Venom was beating the other villains with 90% vs. 10% (even The Lizard) for the remaining villains? Every interview with Raimi, Arad, Kirsten, Tobey was about "we want Venom this and we want Venom that," especially at the Comic-Con. Unfortunately, for the first time, Raimi actually listened to the fanboys, and the results were geeks molesting him in the end for doing so. Even though they knew Sandman and GG2 would already be in SM3, they still wanted him in SM3. Only a few smart Venom fans didn't (and there are very few SMART Venom fans) because they knew that he would work best in his own film with Spidey.

 

[Vaportrail]

You're certainly one to talk.

Weird. When I wrote that, I thought I was supporting my arguments.



The plan just works so well. Ugh.
Unless I develop some sort of financial pull for a fanfilm, yeah. It's never going to happen is it?

Especially not after that Raimi interview on the front page today. "Start over?!?" Dear lord, please not another one. Not this one.

-Vaportrail

 

[chaseter]

Did you view any of the polls of villains people wanted to see in SM3, Venom was beating the other villains with 90% vs. 10% (even The Lizard) for the remaining villains. Every interview with Raimi, Arad, Kirsten, Tobey was about "we want Venom this and we want Venom that," especially at the Comic-Con. Unfortunately, for the first time, Raimi actually listened to the fanboys, and the results were geeks molesting him in the end for doing so. Even though they knew Sandman and GG2 would already be in SM3, they still wanted him in SM3. Only a few smart Venom fans didn't (and there are very few SMART Venom fans) because they knew that he would work best in his own film with Spidey.

He speaks the truth. I am a small Venom fan and knew the 3 villian plot would screw things up and it did. Venom needed his own movie or with a minor villian. He's dead, he had his shot, it's over..no more Venom. There are a lot of other classic villians that deserve a chance before Venom and his red re-hash make their way into a film.

 

[UltimateJustin]

Did you view any of the polls of villains people wanted to see in SM3, Venom was beating the other villains with 90% vs. 10% (even The Lizard) for the remaining villains? Every interview with Raimi, Arad, Kirsten, Tobey was about "we want Venom this and we want Venom that," especially at the Comic-Con. Unfortunately, for the first time, Raimi actually listened to the fanboys, and the results were geeks molesting him in the end for doing so. Even though they knew Sandman and GG2 would already be in SM3, they still wanted him in SM3. Only a few smart Venom fans didn't (and there are very few SMART Venom fans) because they knew that he would work best in his own film with Spidey.

If that was the case then I guess you're right. I didnt really goto any Spiderman boards until after the movies come out, in fear of getting spoiler'd. I meant people I talked to in real life, who dont make up any sizeable portion of the internet, mostly wanted single villain films for the first three and to have one classy trilogy and then jump into Venom, Carnage, S6 for the next.

 

[Blader5489]

The plan just works so well. Ugh.

It doesn't. Your ideas have things happening for no reason with a greater focus on villains than the actual main character.

I don't know why you thinks it works so well, because it's so far removed from the current movies and the tone they've established.

 

[Slipping_Halo]

Did you view any of the polls of villains people wanted to see in SM3, Venom was beating the other villains with 90% vs. 10% (even The Lizard) for the remaining villains? Every interview with Raimi, Arad, Kirsten, Tobey was about "we want Venom this and we want Venom that," especially at the Comic-Con. Unfortunately, for the first time, Raimi actually listened to the fanboys, and the results were geeks molesting him in the end for doing so. Even though they knew Sandman and GG2 would already be in SM3, they still wanted him in SM3. Only a few smart Venom fans didn't (and there are very few SMART Venom fans) because they knew that he would work best in his own film with Spidey.

The people who wanted Venom in SM3, in my mind, are the same type of people who think the possibility of a Wolverine + Spider-Man movie are not only possible, but a good idea. These people don't get that comics and films are different. With comics you have an unlimited amount of time to develop characters and tell a story. With a movie, you've got a maximum of 3 hours. It's a different animal. They don't understand that to do Venom justice you have to develop Eddie Brock well and develop the symbiote story well and then develop Venom well. It's not 1-2-3 like they tried to do it in the movie. Realistic people would know better than to just throw in somebody with as complicated a story as Venom at the last minute of a film's production. That needs to be planned out from the beginning to be done any kind of justice.

And actually I think it was mostly Avi Arad and the rest of the higher ups putting pressure on Sam to put Venom in, and then those rabid fans to boot. When I saw the first photo of black-suit Spidey, I was hoping that Venom would end up in SM4. That's how much development you need for something like that. I think it was a terrible, terrible move.

Another thing I don't really like is that almost every villain isn't an evil person-making them one-movie villains. Even if Doc Ock ISN'T dead (which is another thing that pisses me off-didn't we learn anything from Batman?), what would motivate him to be a villain again? Sandman too; no matter what you do, he won't be a bad guy, he'll just be forced into the situation somehow, which changes the dynamic dramatically. Friggin' hollywood.