Do You Believe In Evolution?

[Danalys]

well when some one discusses evolution they are going to discuss the theory and visa versa. they are still seperate tho.

 

[Arcturus]

Yes, I do believe in evolution.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

So that means you can never prove the existence of God, considering whether or not God exists is subjective to one's point of view. Gotcha.

No, because even though people have believed in God (or "gods") through the ages, God Himself is not subjctive. He doesn't change to fit one person's particular viewpoint. He knows how to work with a changing people, but He himself never changes.

God is 100% absolute. His stances on such matters as righteousness, good works, salvation, sin, death, and punishment do not change. By contrast, people's views of these things change all the time, but that doesn't mean everyone is right.

I've always figured it like this: if God exists, and He's powerful enough to create and organize the cosmos in such a tenuous balance...then why wouldn't He have enough power or influence to make sure His will for humanity is recorded properly?

I personally believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, written not to give us a "free pass" in life, but to give us hope, and challenge our preconceptions regarding truth, justice, and honor. In the strictest sense, I can't prove to anyone that what I believe about the Bible is true...just as no one can conclusively prove that what it says isn't true. That's the beauty of it; God essentially states through His Word, "This is how I created the Earth, and this is what I expect of those who follow Me. Believe it or not; it's your choice...but the truth of it remains."

The genius of Scripture is that it offers explanations and evidence for God's existence, but never total "proof". It simply says, "This is the truth, whether you believe it or not, and your life - both mortal and eternal - will be shaped by your choices regarding Me."

 

[The Senator]

No, because even though people have believed in God (or "gods") through the ages, God Himself is not subjctive. He doesn't change to fit one person's particular viewpoint. He knows how to work with a changing people, but He himself never changes.

God is 100% absolute. His stances on such matters as righteousness, good works, salvation, sin, death, and punishment do not change. By contrast, people's views of these things change all the time, but that doesn't mean everyone is right.

I've always figured it like this: if God exists, and He's powerful enough to create and organize the cosmos in such a tenuous balance...then why wouldn't He have enough power or influence to make sure His will for humanity is recorded properly?

I personally believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, written not to give us a "free pass" in life, but to give us hope, and challenge our preconceptions regarding truth, justice, and honor. In the strictest sense, I can't prove to anyone that what I believe about the Bible is true...just as no one can conclusively prove that what it says isn't true. That's the beauty of it; God essentially states through His Word, "This is how I created the Earth, and this is what I expect of those who follow Me. Believe it or not; it's your choice...but the truth of it remains."

The genius of Scripture is that it offers explanations and evidence for God's existence, but never total "proof". It simply says, "This is the truth, whether you believe it or not, and your life - both mortal and eternal - will be shaped by your choices regarding Me."

But Scripture was written by man, and time and time again many of the events which have been written in the Bible have been proven to physically or scientifically inaccurate. A flood could not have covered the entire world; a whale could not have swallowed a man whole only to regurgitate him unscathed; snakes do not talk; etc. etc.. And because the Bible was written by man, there is no definitive proof that God exists; and because we were given "free will," ever single person's vision of God is subjective to their own personality.

You cannot claim to know what God wants, Moviefan, because you are not God. Nor can you claim to know that he definitively exists. And obviously, your own views are shaped by your own subjective interpretation of the Bible.

So... I can believe in a Magic Cigarette Lighter which orbits Mars as the highest power in the Universe... but I would have to prove that this lighter exists in order to make my points valid. Why is an invisible man in the sky any different? How can you say that God exists definitively when there is no physical proof that he exists, except for a book written by men which may or may not be God's word?

 

[Captain Planet!]

Yes.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I was in my Hindu Phil class today and we were talking about ancient scriptures. I believe many religions accept Holy Scriptures as Devine... the Koran, the Bible, etc... devout followers would argue that these texts are Devine hence came from God... not written by man. Take of that what you will. That's why I choose not to listen to the Evangelical Christian view points when it comes to evolution for example... because they accept the Bible as Devine and I can not argue with them if that is the case.

 

[Sentinel X]

Wow! I'm impressed! It took 6-pages before this thread inevitably turned into the clone of the "Do you beleive in a god/higher power" thread, I thought it'd change direction early on like page 3

 

[Moviefan2k4]

But Scripture was written by man...

Transcribed by men, yes...but originated by God, who influenced the authors to write as they did. that's where the saying "by God through men" comes from.

...and time and time again many of the events which have been written in the Bible have been proven to physically or scientifically inaccurate.

When has anyone ever conclusively proven 100% that Scripture is wrong? I've never heard of it being done. I know lots of people would like to disprove it completely, but I'm unaware of anyone actually succeeding.

A flood could not have covered the entire world...

Says who? Did it ever occur to you that maybe (just maybe) the geography we have in the present day is drastically different from how it might have been to begin with? Who's to say that the world wasn't mostly land at some point, instead of water? A global flood would've filled all the shallow areas, turrning them into oceans, and probably carved out a few of the mountain rangers, too. It's a possibility, at the very least.

...a whale could not have swallowed a man whole only to regurgitate him unscathed...

Jonah was swallowed by a "great fish", not necessarily a whale. And if God wanted him to come out unharmed, He certainly could've seen to that as well.

...snakes do not talk...

Currently, you're correct; they don't. But how do we know for certain that they didn't, at the beginning of the world? We don't know for certain, one way or the other, apart from Scripture's notes on the subject.

So... I can believe in a Magic Cigarette Lighter which orbits Mars as the highest power in the Universe... but I would have to prove that this lighter exists in order to make my points valid. Why is an invisible man in the sky any different?

Because unlike said lighter, God has given people His Word as evidence of His existence. The "proof" arrives through their decision to accept that evidence.

How can you say that God exists definitively when there is no physical proof that he exists...

Look at the human body. It has a heart, brain, lungs, muscles, bones, etc. We know that most of the body's functions are controlled and/or caused by the brain...but we have no idea what sustains that organ. The heart pumps oxygen-infused blood to keep it healthy, and the brain sustains that heart...but after centuries of study, we still don't know why a perfectly healthy body could stay dead, with no visible cause. The only explanation is that something unseen must power the brain, and thus the body...but because science can't explain it, many assume it to be fiction, or ignore it altogether.

 

[Bubonic]

****ing tool, there is no point apart from your own entertainment on keeping up any discourse with this guy...

 

[squeekness]

And how is Evolution fact? From my understanding its still a theory hence the name THEORY of evolution
I happen to beleive in both (based on what I have learned about evolution, however I admit that I do need to learn some more about it before I can be definitely sure on my stance about it.

I was thinking about this as I was gone to supper. I mean, we've figured out the present day animals have adapted over time to their situations -- moles without eyes, squirrels with extra skin to glide and all that. But have we really proven that humans absolutely came from apes? If we have not done that, and I don't think we have, then evolution would still be theory and not fact. I mean, just the fact that we as a group are having this conversation about the different theories tells me that evolution hasn't been proven as an absolute fact and so is still a theory. I think that science has proven that evolution PROBABLY happened, but we haven't proven it as FACT. If we had, then Creationists would have no leg to stand on, no doubts to keep their platform going.

 

[Batman713]

Science > religion.. nuff said

 

[The Senator]

Transcribed by men, yes...but originated by God, who influenced the authors to write as they did. that's where the saying "by God through men" comes from.

And how do you know this? Because it was written on paper and such?

So if I wrote a book and said it was God's word, would you believe me?

Says who? Did it ever occur to you that maybe (just maybe) the geography we have in the present day is drastically different from how it might have been to begin with? Who's to say that the world wasn't mostly land at some point, instead of water? A global flood would've filled all the shallow areas, turrning them into oceans, and probably carved out a few of the mountain rangers, too. It's a possibility, at the very least.

Garbage. Mountains aren't made of dried up mud, you obviously didn't do well in your high school science classes if you think that. Moreover, a global flood is scientifically impossible, because the amount of water which would cover the earth would never be able to be evaporated at the rate at which it was. In order for that to happen, the sun would have had to increase its temperature or proximity to earth-- and at that point, the entire earth would have been too hot to sustain any life.

Science, again, proves that aspect of the Bible as false.

Jonah was swallowed by a "great fish", not necessarily a whale. And if God wanted him to come out unharmed, He certainly could've seen to that as well.

A great fish still has stomach acid. Of course, it's hard to beat the "magic superpower" card...

Because unlike said lighter, God has given people His Word as evidence of His existence. The "proof" arrives through their decision to accept that evidence.

No. He. Has. NOT.

God hasn't proved that he exists to the world. Men have written books and professed their beliefs and dictated sermons... but none of that is definitive proof that God exists. I, a non-Christian, can probably go all the way to East Nowhere, Alabama and yell "God spoke to me! He's told me what to do!" and I could get dozens of people to follow me. That doesn't mean that God is real. Furthermore, it proves that people use the idea of Christianity is a device for manipulation. Because this has happened so frequently, how are we supposed to believe people who say God is real? Because they said so? That doesn't make any sense.

Physical evidence is required in order to PROVE the DEFINITIVE existence of something. Otherwise, it is entirely based in faith, and people cannot say for certain that God exists unless they have PHYSICAL evidence of its existence.

Look at the human body. It has a heart, brain, lungs, muscles, bones, etc. We know that most of the body's functions are controlled and/or caused by the brain...but we have no idea what sustains that organ. The heart pumps oxygen-infused blood to keep it healthy, and the brain sustains that heart...but after centuries of study, we still don't know why a perfectly healthy body could stay dead, with no visible cause. The only explanation is that something unseen must power the brain, and thus the body...but because science can't explain it, many assume it to be fiction, or ignore it altogether.

Or maybe because we are incapable of actually grasping the scientific concepts which are responsible for our existence, we conveniently concocted a magical being responsible for overseeing every aspect of the universe and our existence. We are a very imaginative species; if we don't understand something, we try to make sense of it.

That's why the Native Americans worshiped the Sun or the Bear; that's why early civilizations created mythological Gods which controlled every function in the world. This God isn't any different, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[michephantom]

Never watched dilbert so I missed to sarcasm I suppose.

Dilbert has not been funny for years, anyways.

 

[Nirvana]

Is this the new "Do you believe in a Higher Being" thread?

 

[squeekness]

No, it just got a little sidetracked.

 

[The Senator]

I wasn't the one who injected God into this thread.

 

[michephantom]

Well, look how my thread has grown in a day! Shame I had to work...

Looking at some stuff on the internet about evolution, dna/rna, the formation of the first kinda-living molecules... it's very hard for a layman to understand. I think if you don't have a good scientific understanding, it would be easy to be swayed either way.

I can understand how it would be easier to believe the creater made it all. Then you wouldn't have to have extensive knowledge of the fossil record and what a polymerase is. It was just some dud who said "Can we get some lights in here?"

 

[michephantom]

I wasn't the one who injected God into this thread.

I gues it'as inevitable. If you don't believe in evolution, what else can you believe in? Aliens? Although, that would explain a few things...

 

[squeekness]

Well, look how my thread has grown in a day! Shame I had to work...

Looking at some stuff on the internet about evolution, dna/rna, the formation of the first kinda-living molecules... it's very hard for a layman to understand. I think if you don't have a good scientific understanding, it would be easy to be swayed either way.

I can understand how it would be easier to believe the creater made it all. Then you wouldn't have to have extensive knowledge of the fossil record and what a polymerase is. It was just some dud who said "Can we get some lights in here?"

Well, just because you believe in God doesn't mean the science is wrong. As I have said elsewhere, I think science reveals God. It tells us how he did it. It would be just as sensible for a person of faith to know the fossil record, geology, and paleontology and what a polymerase is and all that good stuff.

 

[michephantom]

Well, just because you believe in God doesn't mean the science is wrong. As I have said elsewhere, I think science reveals God. It tells us how he did it. It would be just as sensible for a person of faith to know the fossil record, geology, and paleontology and what a polymerase is and all that good stuff.

Question- as a christian who is scientifically minded, what do you think of the bible, since science rules out a few things stated there? The only things I can think is is that the bible (from what I've heard) estimates that earth is only thousands of years old and the sun orbits the earth.

But what a great world it would be if everyone tried to learn more about science, instead of buying new shoes, getting tans, and complaining about gas prices while driving gas guzzlers.

 

[squeekness]

Question- as a christian who is scientifically minded, what do you think of the bible, since science rules out a few things stated there? The only things I can think is is that the bible (from what I've heard) estimates that earth is only thousands of years old and the sun orbits the earth.

I get away with a lot because I am not a Biblical literalist like others here. I think of the stories in there as being mostly metaphorical with morals or other wisdom to teach us. I think science has pretty much proved that the Earth is millions or billions of years old and the universe is older still. I believe in the Big Bang and all that. I find science and religion to be compatible for the most part. I think of science and math as the language of God.

But what a great world it would be if everyone tried to learn more about science, instead of buying new shoes, getting tans, and complaining about gas prices while driving gas guzzlers.

Oh I agree. I mean if we could put a man on the moon, why can't we have gasless cars? There are lots of scientific things we could be spending our money on.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Let me just get my two cents on why I think about life and evolution in general... as a molecular biology major and an aspiring scientist myself (before you say good for you I am a long ways away from that)... I personally believe there is a chemical explanation to every phenomena we see in the universe. Obviously we are a ways away... but you can map out the genetic changes at a molecular level for an enitre linneage of a specie and see how these changes led to better adaptation... as far as life as a whole... scientists today are able to chemically synthesize long strands of ribonulceic acid (RNA) from naturally occuring metal/ion catalysts... we are not far off from chemically synthesizing "life" in a laboratory from nothing but chemistry... we aren't nearly there yet but we are getting there. It's a work in progress.

 

[Bill]

Transcribed by men, yes...but originated by God, who influenced the authors to write as they did. that's where the saying "by God through men" comes from.

And I bet that saying originated with a man writing it down. After all, how else would you get people to give credence to your words? Just write that a god influenced it.

When has anyone ever conclusively proven 100% that Scripture is wrong? I've never heard of it being done. I know lots of people would like to disprove it completely, but I'm unaware of anyone actually succeeding.

Great, then perform the sheep breeding in view of striped sticks experiment and let me know what you come up with.

Says who? Did it ever occur to you that maybe (just maybe) the geography we have in the present day is drastically different from how it might have been to begin with? Who's to say that the world wasn't mostly land at some point, instead of water? A global flood would've filled all the shallow areas, turrning them into oceans, and probably carved out a few of the mountain rangers, too. It's a possibility, at the very least.

It would actually be quite easy to look at the geologic column and tell by the types of sediments present and the order of organisms as to whether or not a worldwide flood occurred given the timeframe you've outlined previously. There are no instances within the geologic column that suggest, even remotely, that a worldwide flood occurred.

Jonah was swallowed by a "great fish", not necessarily a whale. And if God wanted him to come out unharmed, He certainly could've seen to that as well.

Then we're not dealing with science, but rather mysticism.

Currently, you're correct; they don't. But how do we know for certain that they didn't, at the beginning of the world? We don't know for certain, one way or the other, apart from Scripture's notes on the subject.

Lack of snake fossils with vocal chords, perhaps?

Because unlike said lighter, God has given people His Word as evidence of His existence. The "proof" arrives through their decision to accept that evidence.

All it would take is someone writing down the Lighter's doctrine, proclaiming it as being breathed into him by the Lighter, getting some especially gullible people to buy into it, and then getting it published. It worked out for God okay.

Look at the human body. It has a heart, brain, lungs, muscles, bones, etc. We know that most of the body's functions are controlled and/or caused by the brain...but we have no idea what sustains that organ. The heart pumps oxygen-infused blood to keep it healthy, and the brain sustains that heart...but after centuries of study, we still don't know why a perfectly healthy body could stay dead, with no visible cause. The only explanation is that something unseen must power the brain, and thus the body...but because science can't explain it, many assume it to be fiction, or ignore it altogether.

The lack of an explanation does not prove mysticism as the default position.

 

[squeekness]

Let me just get my two cents on why I think about life and evolution in general... as a molecular biology major and an aspiring scientist myself (before you say good for you I am a long ways away from that)... I personally believe there is a chemical explanation to every phenomena we see in the universe. Obviously we are a ways away... but you can map out the genetic changes at a molecular level for an enitre linneage of a specie and see how these changes led to better adaptation... as far as life as a whole... scientists today are able to chemically synthesize long strands of ribonulceic acid (RNA) from naturally occuring metal/ion catalysts... we are not far off from chemically synthesizing "life" in a laboratory from nothing but chemistry... we aren't nearly there yet but we are getting there. It's a work in progress.

I saw on the Today show the other day where some scientists had manipulated the DNA of a cat they had cloned. Its skin could glow in the dark. Not sure what the biological advantage of that is supposed to be, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we're messing around with stuff we shouldn't be because as yet we still don't fully understand how things work. I worry that we might accidently create a disease like AIDS or some form of life that was never meant to be that might somehow kill us all off.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I saw on the Today show the other day where some scientists had manipulated the DNA of a cat they had cloned. Its skin could glow in the dark. Not sure what the biological advantage of that is supposed to be, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we're messing around with stuff we shouldn't be because as yet we still don't fully understand how things work. I worry that we might accidently create a disease like AIDS or some form of life that was never meant to be that might somehow kill us all off.

Yeah I am gonna stop trying to explain this stuff to people on the Hype...