Do You Believe In Evolution?

i think some people should read this http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
i've seen so many of these so many times. repeated even tho corrected, but maybe they'll take the word of christians about these things.

I've seen it, and while they're correct about those arguments, I notice they apply their own reasoning to why they shouldn't be used which most often is just as flawed as the original argument.

I find that site far more dangerous than someone's like Hovind, who is obviously a kook and the jumbled mess of information contained on his sites would only fool those who want to be fooled or are extremely ignorant. AiG uses very scientific sounding rhetoric, and it would easily fool those who have limited scientific knowledge. They know their intended audience very well and play to their shortcomings.
 
I've been reading this book called The 12th Planet. Its very good. I left my book at work but I am almost done reading it. It goes back all the way when the solar system was born and explains how the origin of life on earth began. Its so effing ... it hurts your brain after a while when you read so much into it.

Technically, Earth is the 7th planet in the solar system if lets say some alien spaceship from another galaxy passes by Pluto...though since Pluto isn't a planet no longer, Earth is the 6th planet. The book goes on about the creation of Man...Nibiru, the twelve planet. Like it goes all the way back to ancient times.

I recommand it. Its quite interesting.

Now on topic...Do I believe in Evolution? I do... in a way but how did evolution come into play? I guess we'll just have to find out on December 21st 2012.
 
^That is the date when the evolutionary links emerge from their hole and destroy creationists.
 
I've seen it, and while they're correct about those arguments, I notice they apply their own reasoning to why they shouldn't be used which most often is just as flawed as the original argument.

I find that site far more dangerous than someone's like Hovind, who is obviously a kook and the jumbled mess of information contained on his sites would only fool those who want to be fooled or are extremely ignorant. AiG uses very scientific sounding rhetoric, and it would easily fool those who have limited scientific knowledge. They know their intended audience very well and play to their shortcomings.

look while i recognise that, i think that it limits the number of incorrect statements and narrows things down to the fundamental falacies that can then be delt with, rather than dealing with millions of incorrect results of those falacies.
 
A Christain will also work hard here and now because it is our joy to bring hope and joy to as many people as we can touch. It isn't supposed to be all about ourselves, it's supposed to be about us reaching out to others. We cannot be Christians all alone. So we do work hard here and now because we too understand that this is our one shot at life as well. Our enterance into Heaven is not garunteed and we don't --or shouldn't -- take it for granted.

You know I love you Squeek, but as much as I applaud your way of thinking I have to say that you claim membership in a group that doesn't often (as a group) do what they are supposed to do.

Of course you can't help other members of your group if they're own foolishness guides them instead of a more "evolved" understanding of faith so I'll stay judgement from you. ;)
 
look while i recognise that, i think that it limits the number of incorrect statements and narrows things down to the fundamental falacies that can then be delt with, rather than dealing with millions of incorrect results of those falacies.

Oh, I agree. I just think that AiG is doing so grudgingly and putting their own spin on the reasoning as to why those arguments are invalid. I also think that they'll end up listing quite a few more. You have to wonder at what point does an argument become so obviously wrong (to them) that they have to give it up, and is it because it is wrong or that members of their congregation are starting to question some of the reasoning they use forcing them to reconsider.
 
yes but they had to use the same spin for alot of them. and some they were actually acurate about. so it's better than nothing.
 
You know I love you Squeek, but as much as I applaud your way of thinking I have to say that you claim membership in a group that doesn't often (as a group) do what they are supposed to do.

Of course you can't help other members of your group if they're own foolishness guides them instead of a more "evolved" understanding of faith so I'll stay judgement from you. ;)
It is a hard cold fact that if all Christians actually acted the way they are supposed to, we wouldn't get the bum rap that we so often do. We shouldn't be out there asking for money to feed the poor and then drive around in big limos and have huge houses. We shouldn't be turning our noses up at the homeless and throwing AIDS infected people out of our churches. We certainly shouldn't be killing anyone in the name of Christ, even if they did build a big ole Mosque on the site of the old Temple, or even if they should kill us for our faith. The list is friggin' endless and it breaks my heart every day, as it no doubt wounds God down to his very core. I have no solution to this problem because if I did I'd be out there trying to fix it. The best I can do it try to at least make it known that not all of us are the same and we are not all bigots and unable to learn and change as new information about our world presents itself. I'll say it again -- science does not disprove God, it reveals him instead, show us his glory and just how magnificent his mind really is to have given us such a playground so full of life and beauty. :)
 
I find that site far more dangerous than someone's like Hovind, who is obviously a kook and the jumbled mess of information contained on his sites would only fool those who want to be fooled or are extremely ignorant. AiG uses very scientific sounding rhetoric, and it would easily fool those who have limited scientific knowledge.
Exactly. That's why it's a crap-chute: if people don't have that knowledge to begin with, it's not likely they'll ever bother to learn. The thing is, it takes years of schooling to get the knowledge necessary for such a concept as evolution. We're talking basic biology and chemistry taught throughout elementary school, middle school, high school and even college.
 
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i dont really understand the need for a God in the first place

^^^
our avatars match :D

religion and gods have essentially always been around to answer the unknown. it's human nature to want answers to all our questions. throughout history, religion has done this. It also gives people hope and purpose. I have no problem with religion, only when it is skewed, pushed upon, and effects me to further there own agenda. Christians can be EXTREMELY contradictory, one of the biggest being that in there own book, god/jesus says he does not want buildings built in his name. And what do we have? many; churches, cathedrals, colleges, schools, etc.. I truly believe Jesus was not the kind of guy who wanted to be praised as a god, he did not want to be worshiped. He wanted his followers to worship his ideals, not him as a deity.
 
Servitude is defined as "slavery", "bondage", and "compulsory service as a punishment for criminals". That's not what Christianity is about at all. In Luke 4, Jesus said, "The spirit of the Lord is upon Me, for He has annointed Me to announce pardon for prisoners...to set the burdened and battered free." Clearly, bondage and slavery are not on God's "approval list". Scripture details such things as happening in a historical context, but that doesn't mean God's in favor of it.

You still end up living your entire life according to an old book of myths. You serve a higher power, internalize that hierarchies are the way things are meant to be.

The structure of religious institutions paved the way for more malicious ones we yield to nowadays, most of us are just wage slaves anyways. A friendlier existence then actual slavery.

I really don't think you want to start with the whole "ignorance" angle again. That term is defined as "a lack of knowledge", and while I may be no science expert, I know enough about common sense to tell when a principle doesn't add up spiritually.

Actually I think ignorance is a fundamental aspect of religion, it openly discourages the quest for knowledge because it threatens faith. Don't eat from the tree of knowledge right? Don't ask to many questions, blindly follow scripture, discredit things that contradict the word of God.

Just you saying that you know enough about common sense to tell you when a principle doesn't add up spiritually, what does that even mean?
To me it means that the theory of evolution, along with a lot of geological data and other scientific fact threaten to shake up your belief so you instead chose to ignore fact.

You'll instead fill your head up with b.s. that reinforces your erroneous beliefs, things written by complete loons who don't back up their claims with anything else but biblical accounts.

On the contrary. Scripture explicitly says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). It's because of Jesus' sacrifice that Christians can relax, knowing their eternal fate is secured. That doesn't mean we're supposed to be led by our whims, but rather we can take control over our weaknesses through faith. We don't avoid things like strip clubs, premarital sex, illegal drugs, or public drunkeness out of guilt. We choose not to engage in those activities out of reverence and love for Christ.

Oh yes, I have heard that criminality is higher among the religious then atheist. Guess you can live life as you want to when your eternal fate is secured, someone is going to have to help me find a reference for that though. I can't google worth for crap.

God wants us to trust and lean on Him, but He also expects us to take responsibility for our own actions and mistakes. He knows people don't have the strength to completely avoid sin on their own; the more we trust in Him, the more He helps us to live a Spirit-filled life.

That is complete b.s., you don't need religion to avoid sin, you just need a conscience.
 
Bubonic said:
Actually I think ignorance is a fundamental aspect of religion, it openly discourages the quest for knowledge because it threatens faith.
Actually, Christianity doesn't outright discourage knowledge; it simply stresses that not all beliefs are in fact true. the world system's mantra seems to be, "All ways of life and all beliefs are equally true"; well, what about all the vast differences between them? So many belief systems constantly contradict each other, which means that at least some of them have to be false. Attempting such an "all faiths are equal" stance would be outright blasphemous to anyone who's really devout. Chances are, if you told a Hindu or a Buddhist that their views were equally true with those of Christianity, they wouldn't be very happy with you.

Don't eat from the tree of knowledge right?
God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree because He wanted His creations to come to Him for that knowledge in trust, instead of being selfishly disobedient. God's in favor of knowledge, but He also knows there's right and wrong ways to get it.

Don't ask to many questions, blindly follow scripture...
Actually, Scripture encourages people to pick the verses apart in a search for truth. the problem arises when folks go into that search with a pre-formed opinion that it's false...because in that situation, they will be deliberately seeking random excuses to back up that pre-existing view.

discredit things that contradict the word of God.
Well, since God can't lie, anything that blatantly contradicts Scripture would inherently be false. You can't have both light and darkness, and both being equally valid.

That is complete b.s., you don't need religion to avoid sin, you just need a conscience.
And who do you think created that conscience? If it's simply a man-made "invention", then why do people freely ignore or corrupt it so much? Evolution ultimately teaches that people answer to no one but themselves; if that's true, then why do we have any moral standards at all?

If morals were just a relative concept (as some would seek to believe), then it would be perfectly acceptable to everyone worldwide for a situation like this to take place...

Man #1: "I decide my own morals. I decide what's right or wrong for my life."
Man #2: "OK, then I'm going to shoot you in 2 minutes."
Man #1: "You can't do that!"
Man #2: "Sure I can. See, I've just decided that I make all my own rules as well, and I think that it's perfectly okay for me to shoot you."
Man #1: "But...but you can't do this to me!"
Man #2: "Why? If all morals are truly up to the individual, then how can you say my shooting you is wrong?"

See where this kind of thinking can go really quick? If all moral views were equally valid, then there soon wouldn't be any. The fact that morals still remain is evidence that they're not just a creation of man.
 
Actually, Christianity doesn't outright discourage knowledge; it simply stresses that not all beliefs are in fact true. the world system's mantra seems to be, "All ways of life and all beliefs are equally true"; well, what about all the vast differences between them? So many belief systems constantly contradict each other, which means that at least some of them have to be false. Attempting such an "all faiths are equal" stance would be outright blasphemous to anyone who's really devout. Chances are, if you told a Hindu or a Buddhist that their views were equally true with those of Christianity, they wouldn't be very happy with you.

Who says they're all "equally true"? :huh:

That would be a blatantly idiotic thing to assume - just as saying any one is more true than any other.

God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree because He wanted His creations to come to Him for that knowledge in trust, instead of being selfishly disobedient. God's in favor of knowledge, but He also knows there's right and wrong ways to get it.

That trickster :hehe:

If only Adam obeyed his "daddy" like a good boy :o

Actually, Scripture encourages people to pick the verses apart in a search for truth. the problem arises when folks go into that search with a pre-formed opinion that it's false...because in that situation, they will be deliberately seeking random excuses to back up that pre-existing view.

Funny - considering there are several posters here who ended up disbelieving when trying whole-heartedly believe.

They didn't have a "pre-formed opinion that it's false" :huh:

Well, since God can't lie, anything that blatantly contradicts Scripture would inherently be false.

You mean, even when God contradicts himself? :huh:

For instance, when God had given man the 10 commandments yet then told men to wipe out cities and kingoms.

What happened to "Thou shalt not kill."?

You can't have both light and darkness, and both being equally valid.

Actually, light and dark can both exist at the same time (i.e. light source shining on an object thereby casting a shadow).

Could you use a better analogy to make your point? :yay:

And who do you think created that conscience? If it's simply a man-made "invention", then why do people freely ignore or corrupt it so much?

Aren't you someone you believes we have free will?

Evolution ultimately teaches that people answer to no one but themselves;

Evolution teaches nothing.

It is simply the changes in gene frequencies in a population over time.

if that's true, then why do we have any moral standards at all?

Moral standards come from an evolved sense of self-preservation.

Basically, they arose as a result of people's needs being projected onto society - thereby causing society's rules to adjust in order for order to be maintained.

(As a side note, most of the 10 commandments were already in place in several places many years before the event in the Bible supposedly occurred.)

If morals were just a relative concept (as some would seek to believe), then it would be perfectly acceptable to everyone worldwide for a situation like this to take place...

Man #1: "I decide my own morals. I decide what's right or wrong for my life."
Man #2: "OK, then I'm going to shoot you in 2 minutes."
Man #1: "You can't do that!"
Man #2: "Sure I can. See, I've just decided that I make all my own rules as well, and I think that it's perfectly okay for me to shoot you."
Man #1: "But...but you can't do this to me!"
Man #2: "Why? If all morals are truly up to the individual, then how can you say my shooting you is wrong?"

You're assuming this would be isolated - that, somehow, no one would mind this kind of action taking place.

Is it not reasonable to think that people witnessing this kind of event would think "I don't want that to happen to me - I need to do something!" and then act on it?

See where this kind of thinking can go really quick? If all moral views were equally valid, then there soon wouldn't be any. The fact that morals still remain is evidence that they're not just a creation of man.

Clearly, all moral views are not equally valid. How could they be? Any that go against someone's sense of self-preservation would not last without some sort of enforcement of that "moral view".
 
Actually, Christianity doesn't outright discourage knowledge; it simply stresses that not all beliefs are in fact true. the world system's mantra seems to be, "All ways of life and all beliefs are equally true"; well, what about all the vast differences between them? So many belief systems constantly contradict each other, which means that at least some of them have to be false. Attempting such an "all faiths are equal" stance would be outright blasphemous to anyone who's really devout. Chances are, if you told a Hindu or a Buddhist that their views were equally true with those of Christianity, they wouldn't be very happy with you.

I'm not sure about Hindu's, but Buddhist's aren't dogmatic.

Well, since God can't lie, anything that blatantly contradicts Scripture would inherently be false. You can't have both light and darkness, and both being equally valid.

But you read that "God can't lie" in a book written by men. Men who are telling you that God told them to write those words. You are taking the word of those men at face value. And you've been convinced otherwise by your own need to believe it.

And who do you think created that conscience? If it's simply a man-made "invention", then why do people freely ignore or corrupt it so much? Evolution ultimately teaches that people answer to no one but themselves; if that's true, then why do we have any moral standards at all?

No, it doesn't. It doesn't do anything but explain biologic diversity. It doesn't give you a philosophy for which to guide your life.

If morals were just a relative concept (as some would seek to believe), then it would be perfectly acceptable to everyone worldwide for a situation like this to take place...

Man #1: "I decide my own morals. I decide what's right or wrong for my life."
Man #2: "OK, then I'm going to shoot you in 2 minutes."
Man #1: "You can't do that!"
Man #2: "Sure I can. See, I've just decided that I make all my own rules as well, and I think that it's perfectly okay for me to shoot you."
Man #1: "But...but you can't do this to me!"
Man #2: "Why? If all morals are truly up to the individual, then how can you say my shooting you is wrong?"

See where this kind of thinking can go really quick? If all moral views were equally valid, then there soon wouldn't be any. The fact that morals still remain is evidence that they're not just a creation of man.

You've managed quite a slippery slope to get to the argument above. There are people who argue subjective morals, but it's certainly not one taken up by the majority of atheists.

I'd check this link out, it may help you to understand where one gets morals without being subservient to an alleged god. I'd stop believing what people who aren't atheists tell you about atheists and listen to atheists themselves. You don't go to a foot doctor to clean your teeth, don't go to church to learn about science and atheism.
 
Actually, Christianity doesn't outright discourage knowledge; it simply stresses that not all beliefs are in fact true. the world system's mantra seems to be, "All ways of life and all beliefs are equally true"; well, what about all the vast differences between them? So many belief systems constantly contradict each other, which means that at least some of them have to be false. Attempting such an "all faiths are equal" stance would be outright blasphemous to anyone who's really devout. Chances are, if you told a Hindu or a Buddhist that their views were equally true with those of Christianity, they wouldn't be very happy with you.

Many Hindus recognize Jesus as a deity. Most Buddhist would say that any views that reach the same end goal are all valid. This is why there are many schools of thought in Buddhism.

God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree because He wanted His creations to come to Him for that knowledge in trust, instead of being selfishly disobedient. God's in favor of knowledge, but He also knows there's right and wrong ways to get it.

...God doesn't want you to find knowledge, he wants to give it to you.

[/quote]
And who do you think created that conscience? If it's simply a man-made "invention", then why do people freely ignore or corrupt it so much? Evolution ultimately teaches that people answer to no one but themselves; if that's true, then why do we have any moral standards at all?

If morals were just a relative concept (as some would seek to believe), then it would be perfectly acceptable to everyone worldwide for a situation like this to take place...

Man #1: "I decide my own morals. I decide what's right or wrong for my life."
Man #2: "OK, then I'm going to shoot you in 2 minutes."
Man #1: "You can't do that!"
Man #2: "Sure I can. See, I've just decided that I make all my own rules as well, and I think that it's perfectly okay for me to shoot you."
Man #1: "But...but you can't do this to me!"
Man #2: "Why? If all morals are truly up to the individual, then how can you say my shooting you is wrong?"

See where this kind of thinking can go really quick? If all moral views were equally valid, then there soon wouldn't be any. The fact that morals still remain is evidence that they're not just a creation of man.[/quote]

Morals are not all equally valid, morals are a social creation based on social cultures. Both civilized and otherwise. This is why if a monkey kills another monkey all the other monkeys will be totally pissed at him.

I don't know why Christians assume that without God humans would decay into immoral behavior. I mean, God is here right? We do that anyway. Morals are determined by the society in which a person resides. This is why ancient Roman orgies were A-Okay and would be frowned upon today. This is why Jesus' mother was a 13 year old.

Morals are relative to the culture in which you are a member of, regardless of faith or religion.
 
Actually, Christianity doesn't outright discourage knowledge; it simply stresses that not all beliefs are in fact true. the world system's mantra seems to be, "All ways of life and all beliefs are equally true"; well, what about all the vast differences between them? So many belief systems constantly contradict each other, which means that at least some of them have to be false. Attempting such an "all faiths are equal" stance would be outright blasphemous to anyone who's really devout. Chances are, if you told a Hindu or a Buddhist that their views were equally true with those of Christianity, they wouldn't be very happy with you.

So because by birth you ended up in a region where you'd be much more likely to believe in the Bible, then the Bible must be the one that is right? Ever think to yourself that if you had been born elsewhere you'd be just as adamant about some other religion?

All religious text contain bits of human truth and wisdom, but it is also filled with a lot of tripe as well.

God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree because He wanted His creations to come to Him for that knowledge in trust, instead of being selfishly disobedient. God's in favor of knowledge, but He also knows there's right and wrong ways to get it.

Sure, the only right way to get knowledge is through him... :whatever:
Nice system you've got there.

The Bible and such things were a nice way to make sense of the world and give yourself direction back in the day. But many people have worked much harder since then at getting actual answers for how the world functions, and they continuously revise their findings. Religion is basically stagnant, completely conservative in that you have to take things as they are and not question any further.

Actually, Scripture encourages people to pick the verses apart in a search for truth. the problem arises when folks go into that search with a pre-formed opinion that it's false...because in that situation, they will be deliberately seeking random excuses to back up that pre-existing view.

Sure, and that's why Christianity has tens of thousands of denominations, because the way the book is written is so often ambiguous you can interpret it just about any way you'd like, or even better, focus on one part of it that rings true to you and ignore most of the rest.

Well, since God can't lie, anything that blatantly contradicts Scripture would inherently be false. You can't have both light and darkness, and both being equally valid.

But where did you get the notion that God can't lie, that there even is a God? In a book written by men, filled with stories that were passed down by word of mouth for many years, evolving into something different by the time it was actually added to the book.

You talk about common sense, but your admitting you'll only go so far as the Bible tells you you can go. How will you ever expand past the bubble you've set yourself in if you can't even let yourself consider anything but what an outdated, erroneous book tells you?

Your views on geology and science in general are completely out of whack with what anyone who has given the subjects the slightest attention know to be true due to overwhelming amounts of evidence... And you've got the nerve to talk of common sense!

Your just learning from creationist sources, like Bill said, don't go to church to learn about science and atheism.

And who do you think created that conscience? If it's simply a man-made "invention", then why do people freely ignore or corrupt it so much? Evolution ultimately teaches that people answer to no one but themselves; if that's true, then why do we have any moral standards at all?

Evolution doesn't teach us anything. And it functions on a group level, ultimately behaviours that are only beneficial to the individual organism but a nuance to the group won't increase the groups chances of transmitting its genes into the next generation, therefore behaviours that promote group selection will be more likely to help that species advance.

If morals were just a relative concept (as some would seek to believe), then it would be perfectly acceptable to everyone worldwide for a situation like this to take place...

Man #1: "I decide my own morals. I decide what's right or wrong for my life."
Man #2: "OK, then I'm going to shoot you in 2 minutes."
Man #1: "You can't do that!"
Man #2: "Sure I can. See, I've just decided that I make all my own rules as well, and I think that it's perfectly okay for me to shoot you."
Man #1: "But...but you can't do this to me!"
Man #2: "Why? If all morals are truly up to the individual, then how can you say my shooting you is wrong?"

See where this kind of thinking can go really quick? If all moral views were equally valid, then there soon wouldn't be any. The fact that morals still remain is evidence that they're not just a creation of man.

It is sad that some people think that as soon as you remove the iron hand of the Bible from your life that you become some self-centred raving lunatic.
 
If morals were just a relative concept (as some would seek to believe), then it would be perfectly acceptable to everyone worldwide for a situation like this to take place...

Man #1: "I decide my own morals. I decide what's right or wrong for my life."
Man #2: "OK, then I'm going to shoot you in 2 minutes."
Man #1: "You can't do that!"
Man #2: "Sure I can. See, I've just decided that I make all my own rules as well, and I think that it's perfectly okay for me to shoot you."
Man #1: "But...but you can't do this to me!"
Man #2: "Why? If all morals are truly up to the individual, then how can you say my shooting you is wrong?"

See where this kind of thinking can go really quick? If all moral views were equally valid, then there soon wouldn't be any. The fact that morals still remain is evidence that they're not just a creation of man.

Morals are not all equally valid, morals are a social creation based on social cultures. Both civilized and otherwise. This is why if a monkey kills another monkey all the other monkeys will be totally pissed at him.

I don't know why Christians assume that without God humans would decay int

yay the moral relativist! the most intolerant of all the beliefs, because you believe your way is the correct way, destroying your own logic
 
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The Battousai said:
Who says they're all "equally true"?
Very few would likely say it outright, but many act like they believe it. A very popular view nowadays suggests that truth is entirely relative, its value determined solely with a person's opinion.

...just as saying any one is more true than any other.
You've just proven my point. Statements like this are a prime example of the "relative truth" phenomena. In the end, there must - absolutely must - be a permanent divide between truth and lies. Otherwise, honesty and integrity are nothing but illusions.

That trickster :hehe:

If only Adam obeyed his "daddy" like a good boy :o
God gave man free will, and that includes the choice of rebellion. If we didn't have that option, then love would be forced, and utterly meaningless.

Funny - considering there are several posters here who ended up disbelieving when trying whole-heartedly believe.

They didn't have a "pre-formed opinion that it's false".
I don't know the hearts of others, so I can't speak with regard to their motives or situations. But I do know this much...

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

For instance, when God had given man the 10 commandments yet then told men to wipe out cities and kingoms.

What happened to "Thou shalt not kill."?
I've already addressed this; you'll find the reply a few pages back.

Actually, light and dark can both exist at the same time (i.e. light source shining on an object thereby casting a shadow).
That may be true with the physical world, but not with God. He is light, and there is no darkness in him at all.

Aren't you someone you believes we have free will?
Absolutely; but I also recognize that God gaves us that will...and as much as He loves us, He will not force Himself on someone who truly desires separation from Him.

Clearly, all moral views are not equally valid. How could they be? Any that go against someone's sense of self-preservation would not last without some sort of enforcement of that "moral view".
So you think that morality is purely a human concept? If that's the case, why haven't we destroyed one another by now? Why is there even such a thing as love? If self-preservation were all that mattered, the majority of human beings would've killed each other in selfish quarrels centuries ago.
 
This is interesting - you're answering questions that I had answered in that post, but managed to ignore for some reason...

I didn't ignore any of your post :huh:
 
Absolutely; but I also recognize that God gaves us that will...and as much as He loves us, He will not force Himself on someone who truly desires separation from Him.

buuuuuut, im still gonna go to hell.... :dry:
 

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