Do You Believe In Evolution?

[SuperFerret]

But you read that "God can't lie" in a book written by men. Men who are telling you that God told them to write those words. You are taking the word of those men at face value. And you've been convinced otherwise by your own need to believe it.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, the same can be said of anything abstract written in a scientific journal. It all comes down to who you feel you can trust.

Mind you, I dont believe you should follow the Bible literally, nor do I care much for most of abstract science.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

buuuuuut, im still gonna go to hell....

Not if you accept Christ you won't. The truth is that while God loves us all insurmountably, He also entails perfect justice. As such, He cannot allow the unrepentant to enter His kingdom. If He did, their still-fallen nature would corrupt everything like crazy. He offers the sacrifice of Christ as payment for sin, and those who embrace Jesus through repentance are given a new nature. They'll still make mistakes at times, but their heart is reborn. Think of it this way...

Before a person ever hears of Christ, their decisions are often determined by what seems right to them at any given moment. They may show genuine love to others, but in the end, their ultimate responsibility and concern are for themselves. They will also tend to rationalize nearly any behavior, so long as it benefits them or those they care for.

But upon hearing the news of Christ, a spiritual transformation begins to take place. They hear of a God who loves them greatly, but also holds a standard of perfection that none of us can keep on our own. Perfect justice demands a payment for every transgression, no matter how small; as such, it seems unfathomable to even forge a relationship with God...which, if only attempted through works, is futile. No amount of good works can ever make any person right with God, because our nature by default is to go our own way.

When a person realizes that their eternity with God depends on whether they accept both His standard and sacrifice, they're left with a choice. Taking God at His Word means giving up the notion that they make all the rules...and some see that as a personal attack on their freedom. But what God really wants is for everyone to come to Him through faith and repentance. He's been purposely delaying His judgment for centuries, so that as many as possible have the chance to choose Him. When all is said and done, it comes down to this: accept God's offer through humility and love, or reject Him through selfishness and fear.

 

[knowsbleed]

I know you've been asked this many times before, but I'm going to ask it again in scenario format.

!bata is born and the village rejoices in the entrance of a new male to the tribe and village. He is raised from a youth to be a strong male presence in the tribe so that one day he may become a powerful warrior/asset to the village. The older he gets the more he is taken in by how much power the tribal priest has over the village... he looks upon the priest as a mentor. !bata is taught that their god is the most powerful god in the world and that all must please him in order for the village to survive.

!bata grows up to be the powerful warrior that he was raised to be and eventually has a son of his own. The old tribal priest has passed away and in !bata's old age has taken over in his place. He raises his son as he is raised... and eventually dies knowing that he has lead a good life protecting his village and appeasing his god.






How does Jesus Christ forgive this guy?


*btw, sorry for the slight thread derail but I had to ask it.

 

[Bill]

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, the same can be said of anything abstract written in a scientific journal. It all comes down to who you feel you can trust.

Mind you, I dont believe you should follow the Bible literally, nor do I care much for most of abstract science.

Most articles written in science journals are there to be scrutinized and are not to be accepted until they have been rigorously tested and found to be sound. Nothing is accepted lightly or taken out of hand. Scientists are natural skeptics and don't trust everything they read. That's one of the reasons for the scientific method, to give them the tools to test it.

And it's not just who you feel you can trust, but who has the most evidence backing up their claims.

 

[The Dark Defender]

Indeed, just like the countless prophecies made in the Bible that have been heavily supported by modern discoveries, and the "scientific discoveries" that were already clearly stated in the Bible thousands of years prior to the births of those people that non believers credit with the discoveries, including the way that light travels, the function of blood within us and what keeps our bodies functioning, the shape of the earth, evolution...

Either the Bible is full of one impossibly accurate wild guess after another made by a bunch of ancient Hebrews, which relies upon random chance to the point of absurdity, or else it was inspired by someone with vastly more knowledge than any man.

Most non believers either aren't aware of these things, or when having them brought to their attention, simply discard them because they conflict with what the person wants to believe.

 

[The Dark Defender]

First of all, no one who subscribes to evolution believes that life arrived by random chance. Biochemistry is not chance, and it certainly leads to complex structures.

When people make this particular argument, they take what life looks like today as what had to be formed then. But the cells of today are the product of billions of years of evolution. The first life was far simpler.




Evolution does not deny a creator. Evolution does not propose how life began. It could have began with a creator, as far as Evolution is concerned; although the evidence points against it. Evolution is only concerned with life once it began. Before that, nothing biologic evolved. After that, it did.

There are many Christians and Christian scientists who happily accept Evolution as the most valid explanation for biologic diversity. It is, after all, just that.

I know that there are, I didn't say that there weren't Christians that believed in it. I was referring to people that believe completely in evolution and find the notion of God's creation absurd.

There may be a fair amount of people that believe in God and evolution, but none the less, for millions of people, it was exactly what I said it was, an excuse to deny their creator and be deemed by society as rational for it. Millions upon millions of people do not believe in God because of evolution. For many, it is a replacement for God.

As for it not being random, you can describe the theories as elaborately if you like, but if you take out the presence of an intelligent designer, that's exactly what you're saying. I can come up with theories and tests to explain how the painting or the car got there void of a creator and say "oh it's not just random, I went through the effort of making a really complex theory..." doesn't make much of a difference, without a creative hand being at work, it still relies upon random chance whether someone wishes to see it that way or not.

 

[Ring Deacon]

the chicken and the egg is the key. if the chicken cqame first creastionalism is true if the egg came first evolution is true.

Maybe, but where did the egg come from? Don't you need a chicken to get one?

 

[The Dark Defender]

It's arrogant to believe that years of study by learned scholars is absolute non-sense and that you have had the answer all along due to you advanced connection to God. That is arrogant.

It is not arrogant however to believe that you do not know the truth but wish to seek out evidence of the truth. It is not arrogant to participate in the discovery and science.

I will never understand how anyone can think that the Christian "always right because God said so" mentality isn't completely and absolutely arrogant. When non-Christians who make no claim of advanced knowledge are being self-glorifying.

EDIT: Also in regards to your examples of paintings and cars, you already know that those things are man-made. You cannot work to discover the truth from the assumption that you already know it. If you had never seen or heard of a car before you would have NO idea that it was a man-made device.

All of this of course completely disregards everything that I've pointed out, including the objective facts that the Bible predicted the theory that you put so much stock in, and that people would find "evidence" of what they were choosing to believe thousands of years before those scientists existed. I'm not being arrogant by acknowledging that a being that is far, far greater than I knew everything about the way our bodies function and the way our minds would work, right down to the exact ideas that many of us would base our lives upon many, many centuries prior to our births...I'm placing emphasis on HIS knowledge, not on that of myself (which I would be if I were so arrogant). My faith in God humbles me, causing me to admitt my own weakness and need for salvation from someone else, as I would not believe I did if I were so arrogant.
To discard God and put full faith in humanity alone is to discard the need for that humility, we all came from animals, there is no absolute right or wrong and we can just make up whatever happens to work for us, there is no being out there that is higher than us that we are to be judged by since we just got here without one and hence can make up whatever rules we happen to like and totally discard God...this is human arrogance, whether people that believe in it would like to admitt it or not. Just the fact that so many non-believers find the very idea of being bound by God's judgment offensive only serves to confirm that.

The point of the examples I gave was simply that regardless of who had created them, they (and in the case of the car, the very specific functions) are too elaborate to simply get there own without a creator, obviously, hence things that are vastly more elaborate are also too elaborate to have gotten there on their own without a creator, obviously.

It's right because God said so...and he said it thousands of years before the humans that you put your faith in EVER EXISTED, and to this date, none of the many predictions that he made through his prophets has ever been wrong. Everything about our minds, bodies, the political and environmental state of the world...perfeclty supports what God said in the Bible, that is the backbone of the Christian belief of things being true because God said so. It's not simply a matter of "it is...because it is" as non-believers make it out to be.

 

[Bill]

I know that there are, I didn't say that there weren't Christians that believed in it. I was referring to people that believe completely in evolution and find the notion of God's creation absurd.

That's fine, but one doesn't have anything to do with the other.

There may be a fair amount of people that believe in God and evolution, but none the less, for millions of people, it was exactly what I said it was, an excuse to deny their creator and be deemed by society as rational for it. Millions upon millions of people do not believe in God because of evolution. For many, it is a replacement for God.

Then that is their decision. Evolution seeks to explain biologic diversity. There is no evidence that calls for or depends upon the existence of a god to make it work. If you have an issue with that, then take it up with your god and ask him why he made evidence of his handiwork nonexistent.

As for it not being random, you can describe the theories as elaborately if you like, but if you take out the presence of an intelligent designer, that's exactly what you're saying. I can come up with theories and tests to explain how the painting or the car got there void of a creator and say "oh it's not just random, I went through the effort of making a really complex theory..." doesn't make much of a difference, without a creative hand being at work, it still relies upon random chance whether someone wishes to see it that way or not.

In the world of science, not everything needs an "intelligent designer." And we're not talking about a car unless you're saying that the parts, or the paint, are naturally inclined to come together by themselves when given the opportunity. Nothing about being random is being said here. Biochemistry is not about chance or random occurrences. What you are doing here is creating your own version(or a version gleaned from some Creationist propaganda mill) of what science is saying and inserting that into your diatribe. So no, it doesn't rely on random chance whether you wish to see it that way or not. Read science books to learn about science and not some idiot on a Creation site that will mislead or outright lie to you in order to get you to believe what they want you to believe.

 

[Bill]

Indeed, just like the countless prophecies made in the Bible that have been heavily supported by modern discoveries, and the "scientific discoveries" that were already clearly stated in the Bible thousands of years prior to the births of those people that non believers credit with the discoveries, including the way that light travels, the function of blood within us and what keeps our bodies functioning, the shape of the earth, evolution...

Either the Bible is full of one impossibly accurate wild guess after another made by a bunch of ancient Hebrews, which relies upon random chance to the point of absurdity, or else it was inspired by someone with vastly more knowledge than any man.

Most non believers either aren't aware of these things, or when having them brought to their attention, simply discard them because they conflict with what the person wants to believe.

So what are examples of the way light travels, evolution or the shape of the earth found in the Bible?

I know that the Hebrews thought that placing stripped sticks in front of mating sheep would affect the physical characteristics of their offspring. I also know that it is wrong. Care to elaborate on how God got it wrong? I also know that the sun is a third generation star, meaning that it is formed from the nuclear waste of two stars that came before it. I also know that there is no record of a worldwide flood, either geologically or by other civilizations around at the time(2500 BCE). They seem to have escaped the destruction intact. Oh, and about getting rid of all the wicked people. How did that end up working out?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I know you've been asked this many times before, but I'm going to ask it again in scenario format.

!bata is born and the village rejoices in the entrance of a new male to the tribe and village. He is raised from a youth to be a strong male presence in the tribe so that one day he may become a powerful warrior/asset to the village. The older he gets the more he is taken in by how much power the tribal priest has over the village... he looks upon the priest as a mentor. !bata is taught that their god is the most powerful god in the world and that all must please him in order for the village to survive.

!bata grows up to be the powerful warrior that he was raised to be and eventually has a son of his own. The old tribal priest has passed away and in !bata's old age has taken over in his place. He raises his son as he is raised... and eventually dies knowing that he has lead a good life protecting his village and appeasing his god.

How does Jesus Christ forgive this guy?

God has placed the knowledge of His existence in every human heart, but we must be taught to recognize the full extent of it. God won't send anyone to hell who, through no fault of their own, ever had the oppritunity to hear about Jesus. If they do their best to serve God, yet have never heard of Christ's sacrifice, then I believe God will honor their service in the life to come.

However, once a person has heard of Christ, they are held to the same choice all of us get, once we know of Him. God has made no other provision for the cleansing of sin other than Jesus Christ. For those who never heard, God will apply the sacrifice of Christ to their life...but once we've heard the truth, our eternal destiny is our choice.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

I have a question for the sciencey guys, how do the Muppets fit into evolution?

 

[Captain_BluTac]

Oh and Christian dudes, if the theory of evolution is false why do men have nipples?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Oh and Christian dudes, if the theory of evolution is false why do men have nipples?

I always thought it was for marital purposes.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

And what purposes are those?

 

[Franklin Richards]

Why won't God heal amputees?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

And what purposes are those?

Think about it...you'll figure it out.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

I always thought it was for marital purposes.

That doesn't make sense as man was created in gods own image, so if men have nipples so must god and lets face it what are the chances of some omnipotent being needing anything let alone chest decoration for "marital purposes"

 

[Danalys]

so your saying god created man with items specifically for martial purposes before he'd even decided to create a woman. and in the creation of woman he'd added what was needed to feed infants, even tho adam and eve were to live forever and thus would have no children. and luckily all he had to do was double the males X cromosome to do this.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

Okay since the Christian explanation is less than convincing, would anyone who believes evolution to be true care to explain why men have nipples?

 

[Danalys]

because women do.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

because women do.

I was actually looking for something a little less blunt and more scientifically accurate.

 

[Carcharodon]

I always thought it was for marital purposes.

You had a vaginal opening when you were in the womb. How do you feel about that?

 

[Carcharodon]

Okay since the Christian explanation is less than convincing, would anyone who believes evolution to be true care to explain why men have nipples?

We all start out as female in the womb. The nipples and associated tissues begin to form before we sexually differentiate.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

So, you're saying God created man with items specifically for marital purposes, before he'd even decided to create a woman...

It's likely at the very least. Such a design in man would evidence God's forethought on the subject (since Eve was created before the Fall).

...and in the creation of woman, He'd added what was needed to feed infants, even though Adam and Eve were to live forever and thus have no children.

What makes you think they wouldn't have reproduced in the Garden? God commanded them to fill and subdue the Earth, before sin ever entered the picture.

Luckily, all He had to do was double the male's X cromosome to do this.

Luck has nothing to do with it. God created humanity, and that includes chromosomes. As such, He'd definitely know how to properly design them in the first place.