DTL Season 6-Week 1 (Set 2)

[XFanTim]

Was it explicitly stated in the comics that Wonder Woman's "telepathy" actually creates visual illusions in the world (i.e., projections of light or whatever) as opposed to affecting the mind of the viewer? E.g., would a mindless machine "see" her projections?

I somewhat agree with Franklin that "telepathy" normally means something that affects the mind. But if the comics actually stated otherwise, or if her illusions show up to robots and cameras and such, then I'd accept that as definitive.

I'm not saying my vote will definitely depend on this point, but it's something I'd like to know before voting.

 

[Aristotle]

Was it explicitly stated in the comics that Wonder Woman's "telepathy" actually creates visual illusions in the world (i.e., projections of light or whatever) as opposed to affecting the mind of the viewer? E.g., would a mindless machine "see" her projections?

It's the Golden Age. Science and accuracy were not always well-respected. Yes, it was referred to as a "telepathic power," but it was also clearly and explicitly referred to as "projection." "Projection" means image creation.

Now I'm not explicitly saying that Hal's ring is fooled by the projections. I'm saying that Hal is fooled by them. And really, when we're being charged by an flying army of Wonder Women, are we going to be checking our power ring to see if they're real? Hal has never been that cool and collected. Never.

I somewhat agree with Franklin that "telepathy" normally means something that affects the mind.

Normally, no, it doesn't, but in the whole "form follows function" vein, the same power source that creates telepathy in a character often creates other powers, such as psionic blasts that have an actual, physical effect. In a similar fashion, while Wonder Woman can't conjure up an actual simulacrum of herself, she can project images in the real world, and there should be no debate on that point. It is clearly defined as a projection, rather than an illusion.

I would like to stress that this dispute doesn't substantially alter the course of the fight. It's a strong opening move, to be sure, but if the ploy doesn't work, it just makes the finishing move all that much more urgent. What takes Hal down isn't this initial onslaught; he's taken down by a huge super-punch from Wally and then a finish from Wonder Woman while he's stunned.

Now, Frank has argued that if this opening move doesn't work, then Hal wins by blinding Wonder Woman. Problem is, she's a telepath. No one is disputing that she's good enough with her mental powers that she can pinpoint where the forcefields are, and relay that to her teammates telepathically--but we're supposed to believe she can't continue to fight Green Lantern by telepathically locating him? And we're also supposed to believe that all it takes to blind Wonder Woman is "distracting" her bracelet-deflection trick and then hammering her eyes? Surely we've all seen Wonder Woman totally own enough projectile-shooters to know that's not happening.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I am going to respond to this.

What's wrong with Captain Atom turning Hulk back into Banner? There are two components to the Hulk's transformation: gamma energy and a very specific shapeshift. Captain Atom can siphon energy, which has itself forced Hulk to turn back into Banner when used by the Silver Surfer once or twice, and he can force people to shift back to human form--he did it twice, once against Maul, as I mentioned, and another time against the Engineer, which I'd forgotten until I flipped through CA:A again today. I don't see how I'm applying it in any way other than how it was applied in the comic.

I am just saying this is not the same Hulk the Silver Surfer (which I would argue has a mite more power then Captain Atom) drained and no one was able to do that to the Hulk when he threatenned the planet. I don't see it happneing here while the Hulk just takes it without putting up a hell of a fight.

Atom and Thor would be gone for a very short time. Thor's got very high super-speed, which he's demonstrated numerous times. The Hulk and Stark don't, meaning Thor could break away from them for a short while. Locating Atom in the Crossroads wouldn't be a problem, either, since Mjolnir can trace energy signatures--both Stark's teleport and Captain Atom, who's a giant quantum energy ball.

Thor was never shown to have that much super speed in battle given his losses to the Hulk. Plus it takes a bit of time to locate CA. And it would take less time for Hulk and Stark together to put away the rest of the team especially if Brainiac has already done away with Aquaman.

Captain Atom has never had the power to shrink, as far as I know. That's the Atom, a different guy. Captain Atom's an energy manipulator with a direct link to the quantum field. Magic's just another kind of energy and Captain Atom's body has been stated to absorb all kinds of energy. I'm sure Captain Atom, who can summon up enough energy to knock around the likes of Majestic, Superman, and Firestorm, could managed to put some strain on Strange's shields, unless Strange's shields somehow make him tuber. If your aim with the Rings of Raggadorr was to prevent a tiny Captain Atom from getting to Stark, sure, I guess it was valid, since Captain Atom doesn't shrink.

I have to admit a mistake here however I still do not see CA fighting off Stark who is firing off spells like a machine. And Strange's shiled in this instance is an offensive one which would strike at CA if he attempted to breach it.

Either way, there's both magic and tech. The tech leaves his armor open to technopathy. It's all or nothing, you can't just say that the magic would protect his tech from technopathy just because, you need something to back it up.

Not if the binding is made up of magic and the materials used as well. technopathy needs micro proceessors and wiring. There is no evidence of that. PLus CA's technopathy is per your own words limited.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that Captain Atom is solely limited to scientific energies. He's taken down an alternate universe's Dr. Fate before, so clearly he's got some means of fending off powerful mages.

I do not know the circumstances of that battle but there is no evidence of that occuring here. I do not see that battle in any case lasting very long as Stark was planning to banish him quickly.

Namor wasn't anywhere near water (http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/4775/namorfeat23wb.gif) and Captain Atom is not only already among the top-tier in strength with the likes of Majestic, Maul, and Superman, he can amp his strength up even further using energy from the quantum field.

OK that first of all is bad writing and second I think the bands get weakenned when Strange goes to Astral form. Namor is not that strong if completely dry. And in any case, the binds were only used for an instant to then banish CA which is and was the goal.

Thor fights the Hulk because 9 times out of 10, the Hulk is threatening people and property. Rulk had been cutting a swath of destruction around the country, was accused of murdering the Abomination, and was on the run from SHIELD. It's not like Thor just saw a big guy and decided he'd pick a fight because he's totally obsessed with anything that even looks like the Hulk. He likes to test his might against the Hulk, which I noted, but when push comes to shove, he's a team player and he'll fight the guy he's more logically suited to fight. Teamwork is one of my team's strengths.

During the initial Avengers run, how many times did Thor and Hulk exchange insults. They were at it without stop. Plus Thor has been defeated by Hulk too many times to just take it. Last but not least, who do you think Hulk will seek out in battle. It would be Thor and he could be teleprted there instantly. Stark would have already engaged Atom.

On a side note, I was surprised to see Hulk and Thor suddenly becoming friends in the Rulk comic (because it certainly is no Hulk comic) as it was the first time in over 40 years of comics.

Thor's mind is extremely resistant to any kind of mental tampering, and whoever or whatever is throwing energy at Thor would still find that energy absorbed or deflected by Mjolnir.

Not everytime as he has been hit in the past by balsts. i read thor as well and Mjollnir doesn't automatically absorb everything. It is a voluntary attack and not something he is always able to do to prevent blasts or people like Durok would never have put him down.

Death didn't live up to his name any of the half-dozen times he fought the X-Men. He's essentially Wolverine with a few more tricks, and Dane's held his own against Wolverine and Captain America and he's beaten powerhouses like Mr. Hyde in the past. At best, Dane and Wolverine are an even match, but Dane's got the advantages of better weapons and much more speed when he's with Strider. Taking out Dane's horse to even the score is fine and dandy, but Death has to catch them first, which is unlikely.

First off, he has a legion flight ring from the 843rd century meaning he will have the travel speed he needs. Second he is cloaked.

Not according to the rules: "Characters cannot remember previous seasons."

The only issue you could mention is Death and he is a non issue here as he does show a propensity to follow others especially God like beings like the one forcing him to do battle. The Hulk is not an issue.

I don't buy it. The Hulk's smarter, but he's never been that discerning of his foes. He sees a guy he hates, he attacks. He's unreasonable, even to his own Warbound, in WWH, in spite of his increased intelligence, and his bloodlust in that event was such that he'd attack basically anyone who tried to stop him from getting at his targets, including children in the WWH: X-Men mini and the Incredible Hulk tie-ins. This is not a guy who's going to easily fall in line and do the bidding of Stark, a guy who appears to be two of his worst enemies put together.

Still it is neither one and the Hulk never killed anyone and only defended his right to go after the ones he seeked. This Stark is not the one he seeked and had no involvement whatsoever. It is not like this Hulk went after the Leader just because he hated him. He was reasonable in so far that he had set his goal and followed it. His goal is to get back to that and to do so he has to go to battle.

 

[Nightwing]

The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps vs. The Immortals - Purely based on the few facts that were mixed up by Ahura with the waterbearer hand,Starks ability to cut off Mjolnir's power etc
Yancy Street Gang vs. The Authorititans - I just think this line up would be more effective esp with Brainiac in the team aswell. Kind of a home court advantage in that one.

 

[XFanTim]

Great writeups by everyone. I thought the stategies were creative, and I enjoyed how some of you included scans from the actual comics to illustrate your poitns.


I'm a bit skeptical about how Corp beat Ahura's ubers, particularly Thor beating Stark. But Ahura basically treats Captain Atom (an uber) like the Atom (a regular). They're two totally different guys. So that's the bigger sin in my opinion. I also thought Corp effectively rebutted Ahura's strategies for beating Thor and Aquaman with specific references to the comics. So in my mind, he won the debate.

The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps


Ari's writeup seems very dependent on Wonder Woman's telepathy and the fact that her opponents wouldn't anticipate it. As Franklin mentions, they'd see it on her list of powers. Ari argues they would still expect her to mostly fight like regular Wonder Woman, and maybe they would, but Franklin also produced a scan that clearly shows Hal could readily shield himself and a teammate from telepathy. So I think he'd probably do that just to be on the safe side after seeing telepathy on the list of powers -- even if he didn't know it'd be a huge factor in the battle. Especially given that without that psi-shielding his team is rather vulnerable to telepathy.

Now, Ari argues that shielding his brain wouldn't help, because she's actually psionically projecting an image into the real world. It seems this is based on the word "projection". But I don't interpret it that way. I think "telepathically projecting an image" means "projecting it into the vision center of a person's brain". In general, I would assume telepathy effects the brain and can be stopped by psi shields unless explicitly shown otherwise, which doesn't seem to be the case here. I also think psi shields would cloak Hal from mental detection, which seems to be Ari's answer to Hal's blinding attack.

Even if Wonder Woman can avoid being blinded, Franklin also mentioned the fact that Hal can make himself invisible. I believe an invisible, psi-shielded Hal has the advantage on Wonder Woman, and while I think Barry is at a slight disadvantage against Wally I think he could at least hold him off until Hal can help out.

I also think that how Ari took out Invisible Woman goes against the "ubers can't preemptively attack mediums" rule. I'm fine with Wonder Woman locating her with telepathy, since "finding someone" and "attacking them" are two different things. But for Flash to break through her personal forcefields seems like an attack, especially since Quicksilver would have had no chance of beating her otherwise. Yes, Quicksilver struck the finishing blow, but Flash did all the work.


Yancy Street Gang

 

[Franklin Richards]

I'm really torn between the Immortals and the Corps right now. It seems to all hinge on that Sorcerer vs. Thor battle. I think I agree with Corp in the way that Stark prolly couldn't sustain that spell for long but I love giving Old School magic the respect it deserves.

I'm re-reading and looking for an X-Factor that maybe you guys didn't notice that will tip my vote either way.

EDIT---

Ok. I've figured it out. The winner in this match is the one who "gets along" better. Tony Stark is no Stephen Strange. That's prolly the only reason that I have for Stark not beating Thor. That and the rainstorm in Kandor. Nice touch.

As for the "get along", Hulk prolly would still be angry at Stark, especially in this WWH incarnation. Sure enemies can work together for a common goal but this WWH get's his boosted strength from the hatred he feels for the Illuminati.

I just don't see him working well with Stark.

Match : The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps

 

[Aristotle]

Ari's writeup seems very dependent on Wonder Woman's telepathy and the fact that her opponents wouldn't anticipate it. As Franklin mentions, they'd see it on her list of powers.

Sure they do, but they don't see the ways in which she uses it. The image projection is not what most people think of when they think of telepathy.

Now, Ari argues that shielding his brain wouldn't help, because she's actually psionically projecting an image into the real world. It seems this is based on the word "projection". But I don't interpret it that way. I think "telepathically projecting an image" means "projecting it into the vision center of a person's brain". In general, I would assume telepathy effects the brain and can be stopped by psi shields unless explicitly shown otherwise, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

All I can say is that, grammatically, you're incorrect. Because of the use of "projection," the burden of proof is on those who think that it's not in the real world. Unless someone can prove that "projection" means "projecting it into the vision center of a person's brain" in this instance, then that's not what it means.

I also think psi shields would cloak Hal from mental detection, which seems to be Ari's answer to Hal's blinding attack.

Yeah, but that's the old negative-space problem. If you can sense everything except a Green Lantern-shaped nothingness, then you still know where he is!

I also think that how Ari took out Invisible Woman goes against the "ubers can't preemptively attack mediums" rule. I'm fine with Wonder Woman locating her with telepathy, since "finding someone" and "attacking them" are two different things. But for Flash to break through her personal forcefields seems like an attack, especially since Quicksilver would have had no chance of beating her otherwise. Yes, Quicksilver struck the finishing blow, but Flash did all the work.

Come on, dude. Seriously? It's not an attack unless he strikes a blow on her person. I mean, this wasn't even disputed by Frank! He didn't even think it was a problem! (Now he will, I'm sure.) I mean, first of all, the very fact of her creation of forcefields is an attack on my entire team, because they're dangerous weapons explicitly designed to cause my team pain. I mean, if Flash knocking her personal forcefield down is an attack, then her big forcefield over her whole time is an attack. And second of all, how can busting through a wall be an attack? That's what it amounts to! This isn't like Flash ripping off somebody's armor, this is just busting through a wall!

 

[XFanTim]

All I can say is that, grammatically, you're incorrect. Because of the use of "projection," the burden of proof is on those who think that it's not in the real world. Unless someone can prove that "projection" means "projecting it into the vision center of a person's brain" in this instance, then that's not what it means.

I think you're reading too much into the word projection. Here's a dictionary definition of project:

v. pro·ject (prə-jĕkt'), -ject·ed, -ject·ing, -jects.

v.tr.

1. To thrust outward or forward: project one's jaw in defiance.
2. To throw forward; hurl: project an arrow.
3. To send out into space; cast: project a light beam.
4. To cause (an image) to appear on a surface: projected the slide onto a screen.
[several more definitions cut]

It could mean projecting into space, or onto a screen, or just throwing something in general. In short, all the word projection proves is that you're sending something outward from a point of origin. Combined with the word "telepathy" I think it's perfectly reasonable to see it as sending thoughts or images outward from your brain (hence "projection") into someone else's head (hence "telepathic").

I'm not saying your interpretation couldn't possibly be right, but I went with the interpretation that makes the most sense to me. Given the many possible meaning of "projection", I think it's ultimately an opinion call. Other voters may have a different opinion.

Yeah, but that's the old negative-space problem. If you can sense everything except a Green Lantern-shaped nothingness, then you still know where he is!

This would make sense to me if he was in a room packed full of people, because then she would realize that was the only place in the room thought weren't emanating from. But it's not like there are other consciousnesses floating around in the air. I don't think telepathy would let you distinguish empty air (from which no thoughts are discernible) from psi-shielded Green Lantern (from which no thoughts are discernible.)

Come on, dude. Seriously? It's not an attack unless he strikes a blow on her person. I mean, this wasn't even disputed by Frank! He didn't even think it was a problem! (Now he will, I'm sure.) I mean, first of all, the very fact of her creation of forcefields is an attack on my entire team, because they're dangerous weapons explicitly designed to cause my team pain. I mean, if Flash knocking her personal forcefield down is an attack, then her big forcefield over her whole team is an attack. And second of all, how can busting through a wall be an attack? That's what it amounts to! This isn't like Flash ripping off somebody's armor, this is just busting through a wall!

Attacks can be more than just physical blows, or even a psi-blast wouldn't be an attack. To me, demolishing someone's personal defenses is an attack. If you had Silver Surfer vaporize Iron Man's armor with transmutation, wouldn't you say that's an attack?

I wouldn't really have a problem with Flash breaking the bubble around the whole team, which I would agree is more like a wall, but Sue's personal bubble is more akin to armor in its function (shielding her body specifically), even if it happens to be wall-like in shape.

I do think you have a decent point that if Invisible Woman tried to shield her uber teammates from attacks, then she could be considered to have engaged the opposing ubers, and then an attack against her would be justified. But there's really no good reason for Sue to shield her uber teammates when Hal Jordan can make forcefields of his own.

I'll try not to respond further, since I don't want to do Franklin's debating for him. But I think I'm allowed to reply to a critique of my reasons for voting.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I'm done arguing. It's voting time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

My vote goes to the Authorititans. Both write-ups were good, but I thought Aristotle's strategy was better executed. The Engineer was a real boon for him, since they were in a high-tech city like Kandor, which breaks down to one huge asset for her. Smart as Brainy is, I think the Engineer flat-out trumps him in manipulating tech. My one problem with Ari's write-up is that the Flash broke through the Invisible Woman's force field, and that's only because it led directly into Quicksilver taking her down. Still, although I think it violates the spirit of the no-ubers-attacking-lower-ranks rule, it's somewhat ambiguous because it's not a direct attack on the Invisible Woman, plus I think most of the other points are in Ari's favor except maybe the Midnighter/Valkyrie fight. In the end, the pros outweigh that one semi-con on Ari's tally.

Regarding Wonder Woman's physical telepathic projections, if that's how the comics state they were, I don't see any problems. There are plenty of other somewhat irregular presentations of psi powers throughout comics; one of my own characters, X-Man, is similarly able to use his mental powers to create objects with physical mass. I don't see how a psi-shield would protect Hal from something with physical mass that exists in the world, either.

 

[wiegeabo]

The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps
Yancy Street Gang


While Ahura has a very impressive lineup, I think Corp's got a team that will work better together. I also think he's got the edge in some matchups like having Atom depower Hulk. He might not change him back to Banner, but he can seriously weaken him.

As for Yancy, there's no reason for Hal to be given a forcefield by Sue since he's got his own shield. One that also blocks out telepathy (otherwise he'd never beat Hector Hammond) Which means he either blocks telepathic projections, or can just barrel through the projections to get to the real target.


All the teams had good points against the others, I just picked a couple of standouts.

 

[Aristotle]

I still don't understand why any of this means that GL beats Wonder Woman. It just means she has to do the finishing move with Wally that much sooner. Nobody has explained why a single move decides the match for so many votes.

 

[Franklin Richards]

It seems that without her mental powers edge, most voters believe Hal can defeat Wonder Woman.



Good match this week, Ari. I look forward to our next round.

[Handshake]Well done.[/Handshake]

 

[Khellendros]

Going with Yancy Street. Hal and Barry, man. That is a haaaard team to beat right there. And the whole telepathic projection seemed like an important part of the strategy to take down Hal, which I don't see working out, for reasons already stated. Plus, that's just a sweet, nasty use of Invisible Woman's powers that I had totally forgotten about.

 

[Aristotle]

I already voted for Corp. I didn't bold it, so maybe that's why it was missed.

"Hal and Barry, man" is a reason to vote? Whatever. The projection was certainly a part of the plan, but not the end-all be-all. The most important part was the finishing move in which Wonder Woman and Wally switch partners quick, put their opponents off-balance, and then switch back again.

 

[wiegeabo]

Because, looking at her bio, it said she had limited telepathy and the ability to project images. Nothing about being able to project injury, much less create actual physical objects with her mind. So, either Hal's ring blocks out the images, or he can just ignore them. Which also means that Barry isn't being hit by dozens of Flashes.

Even if Barry is distracted, giving Wally the advantage, you're switching opponents tactic gives Barry time to heal (and we all know Flashes don't need that much time). And I don't think WW has what it takes to stop Barry.

 

[wiegeabo]

I already voted for Corp. I didn't bold it, so maybe that's why it was missed.

Thanks. I remember reminding myself not to forget your vote. Guess I didn't remind myself hard enough.

 

[Aristotle]

Because, looking at her bio, it said she had limited telepathy and the ability to project images. Nothing about being able to project injury, much less create actual physical objects with her mind. So, either Hal's ring blocks out the images, or he can just ignore them. Which also means that Barry isn't being hit by dozens of Flashes.

I never said she could project injury or physical mass. That was telepathic mind-trickery. And the only person who needs to be fooled is Barry, for just a few moments.

And I don't think WW has what it takes to stop Barry.

She needs to blindside him. Once.

 

[wiegeabo]

Voting is now closed.
Final Results:

The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps 5
The Immortals 0

Yancy Street Gang 4
The Authorititans 1