DTL Season 6-Week 4 (Set 2)

[DTL Commish]

The rules:
This is one of two threads containing matches.
These threads will be in use for 7 days. Days 1-4 (Nov 15-18) are strictly setup time for owners to post their battles, plead their cases, tell us their team’s strategies, breakdown the match ups, and do whatever else they can/want to do to try and convince you that their team would pull out a victory. Please, let the owners do this on their own with no help. Debating cannot begin until both owners post battles.

On Day 5 (Nov 19) I will post and tell everyone that voting may begin. Any votes cast before I open voting will not count. Look over the matchups and read the strategies, and take into consideration how in-character each character is. Afterwards, use your best judgment to decide who you think has the best chance to win the match. (Note: The length of a writeup is at the discretion of the owner. Do not punish owners just for having a shorter writeup.)

To vote, post the team names you think will prevail in each match. Remember to vote for all matches or your vote will not count! The teams with the highest vote total at the end of the 7th day (Nov 21) will get a W while the other will get an L. (Equal votes will result in a tie.)

The battleground for this week is: Tokyo (Marvel Universe)

The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps
Thor (MU) - Super-strength/speed/durability, weather control, magic hammer enabling flight, energy manipulation, and matter transmutation
Phoenix (Guardians of the Galaxy) (MU) - Super-strength/speed/durability, cosmic-powered telekinesis and telepathy, flight, teleportation, energy manipulation
Supernova (Booster Gold) (DM) - Super-strength/durability, flight, teleportation, energy blasts
Nemesis (Charis) (DR) - Super-strength/speed/durability, empathy, stealth suit, indestructible twin swords
Patriarch (MR) - Super-strength/durability, teleportation

VS.

The Spanish Inquisition
Starhawk: Being of light, with energy manipulation, rudimentary energy constructs, phasing, super speed, flight, and super strength as well as Cosmic Awareness
Silver Surfer (Post-Annihilation) - Power Cosmic, granting super speed, super strength, invulnerability, vast energy and matter manipulation abilities and greatly enhanced senses
Earth-16 Ray Palmer - Belt that allows shrinking, light-based powers
Prince of Orphans - Extremely skilled fighter who can take on a mist form at will
Spiderman (What If version) - Enhanced strength, speed, agility and durability, precognitive danger sense, wrist-mounted weapons


_______________________________

Yancy Street Gang
Dr. Doom (MU) Genius, Armor, Mage, Gadgets, Personal Force-Fields, Energy Blasts
Graviton (MU) Gravity Manipulation, Genius
Invisible Woman (Malice)(MM) Invisibility. Force Fields.
Empath (MR) Empathy.

VS.

The Deadly Dozen
Thundermind--Powers of the Buddhist siddhis
Merlin the Magician--Mage
Jay West (DM)--Superspeed
Liberty Belle II--Superspeed, superstrength
Captain Boomerang II--Superspeed, marksman

 

[Franklin Richards]

Tokyo


The city stretches out into the ocean and lights up the night sky as our unlikely quartet appears in the Imperial Palace.


"An edifice fit for an emperor. This will do."

Doom places his hand on a pressure point of his gauntlet.

"I have activated my sleeper androids here in Tokyo. They will be here in moments. I have also sent for thirteen more legions from Latveria. They will be here before the battle begins."

"Sleeper androids? You don't miss a thing do ya, Doomsie?"

Doom's armored gauntlet lashes out and grabs the throat of the young mutant Empath.

"You would do well to address me as Lord Doom, Emperor Doom, Sir, or if you like Master."

"Gaak---gaahh"

"You no doubt are trying to use your empathic powers on me at this very moment. Doom has fought off the powers of the Purple Man. You are nothing. Remember that."

Doom flicks his wrist and Empath flies across the room crashing into a palace wall.

"But Doom will have need of you during the coming battle. So you may live."

Graviton and Malice look from Empath to Doom.

"I hope this demonstration was not wasted."

"We follow you Doom. But I will not be treated like this worm."

"Of course not, Graviton. We are of course allies. But I will brook no disrespect."

"Understood. Now if everyone's through measuring their penises, can we get to work?"

"Of course, Susan. Doom will now reveal his plans. We will need your power as well."

"My apologies, Dr.--- Lord Doom. I spoke out of turn. What is the plan?"

"We are outnumbered by our enemies but it will make little difference. We will hunt down each member and destroy them."

"Do we split up? Teams?"

"We will remain together at all times, Empath. Our defensive powers are impregnable. Between Graviton, Susan's, and my own force fields we are invulnerable. Susan's invisibility will also grant us the element of surprise. I will also shield us from magical and telepathic probing. A few well placed runes will insure our intelligence."

"What of these 'speedsters'? It seems we might not have the time to erect our defenses."

"You need not worry, Graviton. Sue will insure our protection for the initial onslaught. Once the match has begun you will counter the speedsters advantage with your power. Speed is no match for gravity."

"Hahaha. Excellent. It will be done."

"Ah my personal guard has arrived."

Twenty Doombots fly through the Tokyo skyline. They land behind the quartet.

"Empath. Despite your disrespect earlier, Doom still has faith in your role in this plan."

"What can I do, Master?"

"First. You will make this Liberty Belle your thrall. Her passion for you will make her a pawn of Doom. She will engage Captain Boomerang and with one fell swoop two of the Dozen will be neutralized."

"And the girl?"

"Doom is compasionate. She is yours. Once this is over."

"Lord Doom is wise."

"Of course."

"What of this Thundermind? I'm not familiar with Buddhist siddhis."

"I would not expect you to be, Susan. Doom however is an expert. Perhaps you remember my journey to Tibet?"

"Of course. You spent years studying with the monks there."

"Precisely. I know the weaknesses of Thundermind's conviction. Unlike science, magic and religion are intertwined with emotion. The Buddhist Tantric practitioner spends much time and energy avoiding his own sorrows whether gross or subtle. The root of sorrow is ignorance and the root of ignorance is the inner self."

"So we need to attack his 'inner self'."

"Precisely Graviton. That is where you and Empath will be key. While you assault him with half of Tokyo, Empath will assault his inner self with unrelenting despair. You must wait until your task with Belle and the Captain is complete. Graviton and his cadre of Doombots will either defeat him or distract him. Once you are free to direct your attention to Thundermind I want you to inflict so much sorrow and self doubt that he will be unable to achieve the zen required to perform his siddhis."

"And Merlin?"

"A pretender. The heir to a throne that is long dead. I will face him. Alone."

"Didn't you know Merlin?"

"We have had --- some dealings. I am quite familiar with the spells of Merlin, Mordred, and of course Morgan Le Fey. Doom will destroy his defenses. I am confident that my sorcery and science is more than a match for this whelp."

"Leaving this Jay West for me. With the gravity turned up I doubt it will take more than a force field exploding in his chest for me to defeat him. There is no escape."

"I've always admired you, Susan. This incarnation of you pleases Doom beyond words."

"And what if they hide from us?"

"I am now releasing sensor drones. They will spread throughout Tokyo and integrate with the sensors Doom has already planted here. They will not work until the match has begun but that is of little consequence. Those coupled with the sensors in my armor and Doombots will report their positions back to us no matter where they hide."

"I've got to admit, Master. It's a pleasure to watch you work, sir. You are a master conductor."

"Then pay attention, Empath. The Overture is about to begin."

Yancy Street Gang Victory!

 

[Aristotle]

Prep Time
"OK, either the four-man lineup is just an insult to us, or they're planning to try and take one of us over psychically. So, Merlin, how 'bout you magically shield everyone's brains from telepathy."

Battle Time

At superspeed, Thundermind rolls through the entire city of Tokyo, transmuting any and all weapons and gadgets into sand.

Regs
Boomer and Liberty Belle, being magically shielded from telepathic invasion, beat the everloving snot out of Empath. That's not even a contest.

Meds
With Merlin telepathically feeding him the location of Invisible Woman, as well as the locations of her forcefields, Jay West vibrates through the forcefields and superpunches her out.

Thundermind vs. Dr. Doom
Teleporting past Doom's personal forcefield, and also able to access any place unrestricted, Thundermind transmutes Doom's armor into sand and scrambles Doom's brain. Doom is done.

Merlin and Thundermind vs. Graviton
Again, Thundermind teleports past Graviton's defensive forcefields and launches a superspeed assault on Graviton. He and Merlin also coordinate a psychological attack on Graviton. Graviton doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Partial Rebuttal.


It's not just the forcefields you have to worry about with Graviton. It's the raising or lowering of gravity. If you're running and there is no gravity you will go flying. If you're teleporting into heavy gravity. You might move but it will just be laying on the ground in one place and then be laying on the ground in another place.

And let's not forget that Graviton can hurl objects the size of a building.


As for using magic to shield team mates. That is a legitimate defense , however ; these defenses can be tore down eventually. It just matters on the strength of the mage or telepath. Or in some cases the material strength of the protections if they are physical representations. Like voodoo dolls or talismans. If those aren't being used the usual ploy is to defeat the caster so that their defenses break down on the ones they protected.


Anywho. Just some thoughts.

 

[Khellendros]

Prep:
"You must hold nothing back, Surfer. He is far too powerful to be beaten in a direct confrontation without at least double our number, and he may destroy us all, depending on his mood. Our only saving grace is that his power is limited to the physical manifestations of psychic power. You must trust me, for I am One Who Knows."

As the others looked on, The shining silver man nodded once in agreement, choosing to remain silent. At Starhawk's direction, the man named Palmer placed a hand on the Surfer's shoulder and engaged his shrinking belt. Down they went, as atoms grew tot he size of continents... planets... solar systems. There in the microverse, the Silver Surfer sat as the last few moments of their allotted prep time ticked away. Palmer returned to his normal size, engaged his powers and shifted his form into the invisible spectrum of light.

 

[Khellendros]

Battle:

The instant the battle began, Starhawk came among his two enemies like an angry sun. Immaterial as a sunbeam, he unleashed blinding light even as he slammed constructs around the throats of both the Thunderer and the Phoenix, squeezing the Asgardian with enough force to shatter diamonds.

At the same time, Ray did the same, moving amongst his enemies and burning the retinas of the Kheran and teleporter beyond repair with blasts laser light. Remaining invisible, he joined Starhawk, shringking to the size of a bloodcell and making his way into Thor's tearduct.

Meanwhile, in the microverse, Surfer followed his cosmic awareness, zeroing in on the vast wellspring of psychic energy combatting Starhawk. Even immaterial, he couldn't fight the ravenous telekinetic hunger for long. Surfer increased his size, came back into the world. Thor, meanwhile, was gripping his head as light erupted from his eyes. Within Phoenix's telekinetic shield, Surfer expanded rapidly, the sudden and massive shift of air pressure blowing the man off his feet.

Absorbing the unfocused telekinetic energy his enemy lashed out with, Surfer reached out, turning the oxygen carried by his blood cells to inert gasses, giving the man the worst case of the bends in existence.

Reality rippled around him, and he could sense an attempt to teleport himself elsewhere. Plunging into the other world, he returned to Tokyo under hiw own power, and shrunk back into the Microverse, chasing down the energy signature of the one who had just attacked him.

Starhawk turned on Thor, becoming solid, and slammed into the God of Thunder, even as his skull was blasted from the inside by a man of pure light. The combination of burning agony, and brutal physical blows eventually brought Thor low.

As the fight drew to a close, Spiderman and the Prince of Orphans knocked their blinded opponents out as gently as possible.


Winner: Inquisition


Some notes:

Okay, well, my team's biggest advantage is Starhawk and his speed. He'd be on Thor and Phoenix before they realize they fight had started due to his Cosmic Awareness. He's basically light, meaning he's only as solid as he wants to be, and I don't know of Phoenix having shown any ability to manipulate light. Thor could **** with him, but with this guy hammering him brutally with constructs, he's gonna be concentrating on just fighting past those, rather than pulling off more esoteric tricks.

The Surfer stuff might be cheap, but **** it, not like they could beat Phoenix in a fair fight.

Supernova's not gonna be able to take down Ray because he can shrink as well and turn into pure light, including non-visible spectrums. So, his choices would be take out one of the big guns or the peons first, I figured he'd go with the big gun.

Surfer can and has returned to other dimensions/realities, especially when he's been there before. Attempted offensive use of teleportation would constitute an attack, freeing up Norrin to take on Booster.

 

[DTL Commish]

Voting may now begin

 

[Aristotle]

Partial Rebuttal.

I know nobody gives a **** about the rules anymore, but you really are supposed to do your writeup before you read the other guy's. It's a pretty unfair advantage. I don't expect anyone to vote on it, because nobody cares about the rules at all, but just as a courtesy to your future opponents, maybe don't do that. And it's not even like you didn't know, because we just went through this with Khellendros like two weeks ago.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I don't plan on writing any more. This is my plan. You can rebutt but as far as my plan is concerned.

Mission Accomplished.

 

[Aristotle]

"I have activated my sleeper androids here in Tokyo. They will be here in moments. I have also sent for thirteen more legions from Latveria. They will be here before the battle begins."

Illegal, voters should disregard it.

"We will remain together at all times, Empath.

Speed allows my team to separate them easily. Everyone thinks that the only advantage of speed is that it makes you fast, but it also allows a team to determine matchups.

Our defensive powers are impregnable. Between Graviton, Susan's, and my own force fields we are invulnerable.

Not to Thundermind, who can access all places unrestricted.

Susan's invisibility will also grant us the element of surprise.

Not to telepathy.

I will also shield us from magical and telepathic probing.

Doesn't take a superspeedster like Thundermind long to locate him and dispose of him. And he won't run into any forcefields, because of his unrestricted access.

Speed is no match for gravity.

Here's what is a match for gravity: Merlin and Thundermind combined. Graviton doesn't have a prayer after Doom, possibly the lowest-strength active uber, is quickly disposed of by Thundermind.

Twenty Doombots fly through the Tokyo skyline. They land behind the quartet.

Again, voters should disregard this illegal expansion of the roster.

You will make this Liberty Belle your thrall. Her passion for you will make her a pawn of Doom. She will engage Captain Boomerang and with one fell swoop two of the Dozen will be neutralized."

That would work if the Dozen weren't telepathically shielded.

Doom however is an expert...magic and religion are intertwined with emotion. The Buddhist Tantric practitioner spends much time and energy avoiding his own sorrows whether gross or subtle. The root of sorrow is ignorance and the root of ignorance is the inner self.

Perhaps Doom is an expert, but Franklin Richards is not. Buddhism is not about avoidance of sorrow. It is about coming to peace with sorrow, among other negative emotions. It is about being mindful of all things, including one's own shortcomings and sorrows. To try and manipulate even an average Buddhist devotee using emotion would probably fail, but to try and manipulate someone who has literally achieved the Buddhist definition of human perfection with emotion? Ludicrous, and a failure before it even starts.

Once you are free to direct your attention to Thundermind I want you to inflict so much sorrow and self doubt that he will be unable to achieve the zen required to perform his siddhis."

"Unable to achieve the zen"? Why not just say "He's an Asian, so we'll kill him with fortune cookies!"

"A pretender. The heir to a throne that is long dead.

I'll assume that you know that isn't actually true, and are just putting false words in Doom's mouth.

"We have had --- some dealings. I am quite familiar with the spells of Merlin, Mordred, and of course Morgan Le Fey. Doom will destroy his defenses. I am confident that my sorcery and science is more than a match for this whelp."

Yeah, no. Merlin's magic isn't remotely similar to his famous ancestor's. The only similarities are the names and the ability. Merlin is from the Zatanna/Zatara school of magic. Doom is woefully unprepared for this foe. And while Doom has comparatively little magical ability, Merlin is a pure uber mage. It's all he does. He'll easily overpower Doom.

"Leaving this Jay West for me. With the gravity turned up I doubt it will take more than a force field exploding in his chest for me to defeat him. There is no escape."

When did Susan acquire superspeed?

"I am now releasing sensor drones.

Illegal. Ubers cannot use any power during prep. And since tech genius is one of Doom's powers, he cannot do this in prep.

 

[XFanTim]

It's true that you can't summon other characters during battle, and I think Doombots probably count as other characters. That's another one of the rules we've gotten stricter about since previous seasons. (Shanzar summoning magical demons or Brainiac-417 using the Mon'Elves were two examples that I know we allowed up until early last season, but no more.) But that said, I don't really see the presence or absence of the Doombots being the deciding factor in this fight.

Whether Doom using equipment in prep-time counts as "using his powers" seems like more of a gray area to me. Obviously we wouldn't let a Green Lantern use his ring, since that's clearly "using his powers", so maybe we should treat all equipment the same way. But again, I don't think the battle would be likely to hinge on this point.

I'll try to find time to vote soon.

 

[Aristotle]

The rules violations don't seem like gamebreakers to me either, but voters have voted on some weird s*** before, so I want my bases covered. I don't want some voter up and deciding to vote against me because he thinks an army of Doombots is enough to take my team out.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Speed allows my team to separate them easily. Everyone thinks that the only advantage of speed is that it makes you fast, but it also allows a team to determine matchups.

Not true in this case. The combination of the Invisible Woman and Graviton should be enough.

1.) Invisible.
2.) Graviton's power will activate as soon as the clock starts. There is no gap because anyone can throw a switch before the clock starts.
3.) Doom's runic defenses will activate or be activated as soon as the clock starts.

Not to Thundermind, who can access all places unrestricted.

Not heavy gravity areas.

Not to telepathy.

That wont last long once defenses are erected.

Doesn't take a superspeedster like Thundermind long to locate him and dispose of him. And he won't run into any forcefields, because of his unrestricted access.

Again. Restricted.

Here's what is a match for gravity: Merlin and Thundermind combined. Graviton doesn't have a prayer after Doom, possibly the lowest-strength active uber, is quickly disposed of by Thundermind.

Doom has more power than you think. Doom can deal with a speedster. Especially with his contingency skills and the defenses already up.

That would work if the Dozen weren't telepathically shielded.

I believe the execution of my plan that deals with the Dozen's defenses would work eventually.

Perhaps Doom is an expert, but Franklin Richards is not. Buddhism is not about avoidance of sorrow. It is about coming to peace with sorrow, among other negative emotions. It is about being mindful of all things, including one's own shortcomings and sorrows. To try and manipulate even an average Buddhist devotee using emotion would probably fail, but to try and manipulate someone who has literally achieved the Buddhist definition of human perfection with emotion? Ludicrous, and a failure before it even starts.

Actually I did my homework and read some comparisons of Hindu and Buddist siddhis. Good read and I think the storyline is sound enough in a world where we have magic and gods.

"Unable to achieve the zen"? Why not just say "He's an Asian, so we'll kill him with fortune cookies!"

It wasn't that bad. I was turning a phrase. Everyone's a critic.

I'll assume that you know that isn't actually true, and are just putting false words in Doom's mouth.

Yeah, no. Merlin's magic isn't remotely similar to his famous ancestor's. The only similarities are the names and the ability. Merlin is from the Zatanna/Zatara school of magic. Doom is woefully unprepared for this foe. And while Doom has comparatively little magical ability, Merlin is a pure uber mage. It's all he does. He'll easily overpower Doom.

Doom's magic is good enough to be recognized by the Vishanti.

He can delay Thundermind in a heavy gravity environment long enough for Graviton, Malice, or Empath to help him.

When did Susan acquire superspeed?

She doesn't need it. Heavy gravity.


If we start playing the waiting game my team wins. All we need to do is survive your first onslaught and we can do that.

 

[Aristotle]

Not heavy gravity areas.

He can access anywhere unrestricted. He can teleport any time he feels like it, at superspeed, which essentially negates the gravity problem.

That wont last long once defenses are erected.

And once those defenses are torn to shreds, they won't matter.

Again. Restricted.

I feel weird arguing such irrelevant minutiae of Buddhist theology as the metahuman analogues of the siddhis, but it's pretty clear that the access is quite simply unrestricted, regardless of the gravity.

Doom has more power than you think. Doom can deal with a speedster.

Doom can't comprehend the kind of speedsters that the DCU can throw at him. Sure, he can maybe stop a Quicksilver, but he can't touch someone moving like Thundermind.

I believe the execution of my plan that deals with the Dozen's defenses would work eventually.

You don't get the time. One of your ubers is down in less than a second. The second uber is down in a few more seconds. That's the point, the Dozen works extremely fast.

Actually I did my homework and read some comparisons of Hindu and Buddist siddhis. Good read and I think the storyline is sound enough in a world where we have magic and gods.

I congratulate and thank you for doing that homework; too many Americans fail to inform themselves about unfamiliar theologies, despite the unique perspectives they can bring, and while I will never be a Buddhist, and don't want to be, I applaud you for reading the siddhis on such a whim as needing to for a DTL match. However, I feel you've overlooked a key aspect of Buddhism, which dictates that the superior man conquers his sorrow/anger/confusion/etc., rather than simply avoiding it. It can't be used to manipulate him, because he has already defeated it, or perhaps he has rather simply accepted it to the point at which it no longer has power over him.

Doom's magic is good enough to be recognized by the Vishanti.

Window dressing. I defy you to come up with an example of Doom's magic being on a par with Zatanna's (which is roughly the level of Merlin the Magician's.)

He can delay Thundermind in a heavy gravity environment

I maintain that the heavy gravity is a non-factor. With Thundermind teleporting at superspeed (a la Spartan/Void), he essentially duplicates his superspeed travel without having to actually run. So he keeps his powered advantage, and is able to do exactly what he needs to do.

She doesn't need it. Heavy gravity.

Graviton is out of the game, or at least out of the picture, very quickly. Again, with the speed of being able to separate your team, my team can remove Graviton from the picture very quickly, and remove him from the game almost as fast. She's on her own.

If we start playing the waiting game my team wins. All we need to do is survive your first onslaught and we can do that.

You may well have a point. My team isn't built for a long game. It is built for eliminating the possibility of a long game.

 

[XFanTim]

Shouldn't we be interpreting Thundermind's powers based on what he actually did in the comics, rather than based on Buddhist theology? I mean, just because Mjolnir gives you the "power of Thor" doesn't mean we can look up Thor's powers in the Prose Edda or something.

How many of these powers did Thundermind actually use in the comics?

 

[Franklin Richards]

He can access anywhere unrestricted. He can teleport any time he feels like it, at superspeed, which essentially negates the gravity problem.

If someone teleports into a heavy gravity area, they will still sink to the ground. The can teleport around but they are still glued to the spot. And not standing around casting spells or attacking. They are crumpled on the ground.

And once those defenses are torn to shreds, they won't matter.

Again our impasse.

I feel weird arguing such irrelevant minutiae of Buddhist theology as the metahuman analogues of the siddhis, but it's pretty clear that the access is quite simply unrestricted, regardless of the gravity.

I don't think it's that clear. But I'd like to see him using the power as Tim suggests.

Doom can't comprehend the kind of speedsters that the DCU can throw at him. Sure, he can maybe stop a Quicksilver, but he can't touch someone moving like Thundermind.

Doom is aware of speedsters such as the Silver Surfer, Nova, and Air Walker. He is also aware of magical speed enhancement. He's also met an Elder of the Universe called the Runner. I'm sure he has a grasp of what that means. All moot anyway. Heavy / No gravity will solve the problem.

You don't get the time. One of your ubers is down in less than a second. The second uber is down in a few more seconds. That's the point, the Dozen works extremely fast.

As long as the gravity switch is thrown, the power will be up once the clock starts. Speed will be irrelevant.

I congratulate and thank you for doing that homework; too many Americans fail to inform themselves about unfamiliar theologies, despite the unique perspectives they can bring, and while I will never be a Buddhist, and don't want to be, I applaud you for reading the siddhis on such a whim as needing to for a DTL match. However, I feel you've overlooked a key aspect of Buddhism, which dictates that the superior man conquers his sorrow/anger/confusion/etc., rather than simply avoiding it. It can't be used to manipulate him, because he has already defeated it, or perhaps he has rather simply accepted it to the point at which it no longer has power over him.

And that is exactly why I chose that avenue of attack. Why I feel an empath moreso than a telepath would be exactly what our team would need. It's a slippery slope but I feel it's difficulty rating is why it's the avenue of attack.

Window dressing. I defy you to come up with an example of Doom's magic being on a par with Zatanna's (which is roughly the level of Merlin the Magician's.)

Doom has exhibited that his combo of Science and Sorcery is enough to balk even the most stalwart mage.

And more recently...

Doom need only delay. And he'll be able to do that.

I maintain that the heavy gravity is a non-factor. With Thundermind teleporting at superspeed (a la Spartan/Void), he essentially duplicates his superspeed travel without having to actually run. So he keeps his powered advantage, and is able to do exactly what he needs to do.

Graviton is out of the game, or at least out of the picture, very quickly. Again, with the speed of being able to separate your team, my team can remove Graviton from the picture very quickly, and remove him from the game almost as fast. She's on her own.

Our disagreement. See above.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Window dressing. I defy you to come up with an example of Doom's magic being on a par with Zatanna's (which is roughly the level of Merlin the Magician's.)

Here's one that just screams Zatanna.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Spanish Inquisition.


Due to them actually putting up a strategy.

 

[Aristotle]

Shouldn't we be interpreting Thundermind's powers based on what he actually did in the comics, rather than based on Buddhist theology? I mean, just because Mjolnir gives you the "power of Thor" doesn't mean we can look up Thor's powers in the Prose Edda or something.

How many of these powers did Thundermind actually use in the comics?

To me, that's moot, because it was literally stated that he has metahuman analogs of the siddhis.

 

[Aristotle]

If someone teleports into a heavy gravity area, they will still sink to the ground. The can teleport around but they are still glued to the spot. And not standing around casting spells or attacking. They are crumpled on the ground.

That doesn't take into account the idea of superspeed teleportation. He's literally not in one spot long enough for gravity to affect him with any severity.

Heavy gravity will solve the problem

One character who can defeat an entire team? Starting to sound like the big T-word to me.

Doom has exhibited that his combo of Science and Sorcery is enough to balk even the most stalwart mage.

Wait, you show a page that proves that Doom didn't lose his faculties? That page proves nothing.

Doom need only delay. And he'll be able to do that.

Doesn't have the speed.

 

[Aristotle]

Here's one that just screams Zatanna.

...No, it really doesn't scream that at all.

 

[Franklin Richards]

That doesn't take into account the idea of superspeed teleportation. He's literally not in one spot long enough for gravity to affect him with any severity.

Gravity effects us at all times. Unless you are stopping time it will happen. It is happening. It did happen.

One character who can defeat an entire team? Starting to sound like the big T-word to me.

He doesn't take the whole team. He's using his power in conjunction with the team. Your people are entering that area so they can get the attack in quick. That means they are effected. That's a strategy. If you stayed away from them it wouldn't work. But you are trapped because to win you must attack immediately or your trick doesn't work.

Graviton is just strong in his baliwick. It's like saying Magneto is Tuber.

Wait, you show a page that proves that Doom didn't lose his faculties? That page proves nothing.

It proves that Doom is adept at magic. And that's what you were questioning. You wanted him exhibiting Zatanna like power. There it is. In a contest with a bunch of mages and vs a squad of Avengers including The Sentry.

And if you accept that then you have to come to the conclusion that he can prolly hang in there with Zatanna / Merlin long enough for the initial onslaught to conclude.

Doesn't have the speed.

See above.

 

[Franklin Richards]

...No, it really doesn't scream that at all.

Spell some words backwards and it's standard Zatanna fair.

 

[Aristotle]

Gravity effects us at all times. Unless you are stopping time it will happen. It is happening. It did happen.

This seems really elementary and obvious, so everyone probably will vote against me for it, but he's not running. He's teleporting. It doesn't matter how strong the gravity is, because he's changing the location of himself at superspeed. And yes, gravity affects us at all times, but if you're arguing that the gravity is sinking him into the earth, then you also have to accept that sinking into the earth is going to take time. And that time isn't going to be there, because he's superspeed-teleporting.

 

[XFanTim]

I guess for the purpose of voting I'll go with Thundermind getting to use all the powers Ari listed -- although I've brought it up for discussion in the discussion thread.

I do think that even just teleporting into a region of increased gravity could screw someone up pretty bad. Not so much because of "sinking into the ground", but because if the gravity is greater then the air pressure will be greater -- think of the world's worst case of the "bends". And I don't think Ari listed enhanced durability as one of Thundermind's powers. Perhaps he could compensate by increasing his density, but he wouldn't know in advance precisely how much to adjust it for the region he was teleporting into. (Maybe he would have just pre-emptively raised his density to the max, and maybe that would negate the effect, at least according to comic book physics, but I'm not too sure of either of those points.)

On the other hand,I'm skeptical of Doom's magic being able to beat Merlin. Franklin showed scans of him using magic against Iron Man, but that worked specifically because Iron Man's armor doesn't know how to handle magic. And his spell was only able to affect the Sentry so much because the Sentry's mind is screwed up. Simply being among the large number of mages considered by the Vishanti for Sorcerer Supreme, or beating a few low-level mages, doesn't prove he has the magical chops to go toe-to-toe with Merlin. You never know with Doom, he might think of some great stratagem to beat him, but I can only go by the strategies given, and I wasn't really convinced.

Normally I'd say Invisible Woman beats a speedster, because without being able to know where she is or where her forcefields are, a speedster is likely to run headlong into one. But Ari has Merlin who can probably locate her by magical means and feed this info to his teammates. As soon as Jay West knows where she is, he can probably phase through her forcefields and take her out. Franklin's counter to this is having Graviton create an increased gravity field around her to slow him down. My issue with this is it seems to run against the rule that ubers shouldn't attack the lower levels before taking down the opposing ubers. (The whole point of the rule is not to make the ubers totally determine the outcome of the battle on their own, which Graviton seems to be doing by using his power to totally cancel out the lower levels power of speed.) That is, he should have to take out Merlin before using a gravity field against Jay West (the gravity field being, in my mind, an attack). Franklin might argue it's not really an attack if Jay chooses to run into the already-set-up grav field, but the thing is Ari's guys would know about the field if it already caught Thundermind (especially since they'd be mentally in touch with him via his telepathy). So at worst they could hang back until their uber teammates beat Graviton.

Here's the thing: I'm not sure if they would beat Graviton. I have Graviton probably beating Thundermind and Merlin probably beating Doom for the reasons given above, and that leaves Merlin vs. Graviton. In a battle of magic vs. gravity, I'm not sure who wins -- and whoever it is would probably win the match.

So faced with an "it could go either way" scenario, this is what I'm left with: Franklin's whole strategy is dependent on Graviton, more so than Ari's is dependent on Merlin. If Graviton does go down, Franklin's team is in pretty bad shape against the speedsters. In fact, if Merlin finds a way to magically disrupt Graviton's powers for even an instant, that would expose him to attacks from the speedsters. Then again, I suppose Franklin could make the case that even if Graviton falls his team could still beat the speedsters on the strength of Sue's power, just so long as Graviton takes Merlin with him (since Merlin could, I'm thinking, magically locate her even if she's invisible.)

I'm still torn, but Ari's team also has the advantage of greater numbers, since for some reason Franklin used only four characters. (As I said, we did disallow summoning characters like the Doombots when this sort of thing came up last season, although Franklin wouldn't have known this.)

I've got to vote for someone, so I guess I give the edge to The Deadly Dozen in a close one. All other arguments aside, I think part of what swayed me is that Franklin didn't really tell me how he'd beat Merlin, just claimed that Doom could handle it. Ari's strategy of using superspeed transmutation/psychic attacks against Doom, and then superspeed physical attacks and psychic attacks against Graviton might or might not be successful, but at least it was specific.

My other vote goes to The Spanish Inquisition. Sorry Corp, I'm super busy and I realized I probably won't have time to get back on here later this weekend to see if you posted anything. So I'm finishing voting for the matches now so that Wieg will count my votes.