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Ellis on Thunderbolts??

Oh, and NEXTWAVE also annoys me because it and Ellis seems to act like it's the funniest thing in the universe. Kind of like how Jimmy Fallon seems to "smile in every sketch he ever did". It just comes off as pretentious. It even have a damned THEME-SONG. It just came off as trying way too hard sometimes to me. Like that kid in your class who'd do anything for a cheap laugh, and never realized that he was simply annoying. Like Tom Green.
 
Dread said:
Hence why I felt I didn't have to commit after the first two issues. ;)


I mention this all the time about CW, "When was the last time you saw the New Warriors being used anywhere?", but it comes off as a bitter pill as half the founders are dead, their name is mud and Speedball is a pariah (who may die whenever Jenkins wants a bonus check).

I pose this choice; would you rather a C-Lister spend years in Limbo, or be used, but act nothing like themselves, be used in a manner in which they're a cardboard cypher, and their only recent experience (i.e., the experience Marvel's executives use) will be said title? I'd rather them in limbo, thanks. Then I could hope somewhere in the future they could be used seriously and efficiently. Sure, people know who Elsa Bloodstone is. But all they know her as is a British femm stereotype with huge knockers who serves as a cypher for Lara Croft. And you could argue she WAS made to copy Lara Croft. But she could grow beyond that. Thanks to Nextwave, she never will. I'll call it now. It's all she'll be remembered for for the next 5 years at least. Same with all the others.

Again, if Ellis had just created spoofs, like Dirk Anger or "The Captain", then I could live with it. But when you mangle C-Listers like that who can't bounce back from being mishandled like an A or even B lister sometimes can, then I tune out.

Name me the last time a C-List character was used as a goofy comic relief in a soul-less narrative for over a year and then returned in a serious, competant manner for a purpose OTHER than to die. At Marvel. She-Hulk doesn't count. Her book's not a pure comedy.


I just figured a book whose characters have no souls, where the skits are as random as AQUA TEAM HUNGER FORCE (lord, I could almost kill Monty Python for convincing every comedic wanna-be that "random" is instantly funny; it's not. Sometimes it works and sometimes it makes you wonder what kind of acid the writer was on) and that's just not my thing.

Oh, and I could say the same "non-decompressed" thing about X-MEN: FIRST CLASS. It's a fun superhero book. Sure, the major flaw is that if it's the adventures of the teen X-Men, then it's "ten years ago" and you can't have modern references or designs for Cerebro. But compared to NEXTWAVE, that's nothing. The first issue was good clean fun. But like Nextwave, it's pointless. Do I hear anyone singing that book's praises?

Compressed stories alone aren't enough for me. It has to be part of a whole package and to me Nextwave was a title that did more harm to the MU than good for me.

Hey no problem. I see your point, I'm not gonna try to flip your opinion and yeah I was kinda pissed about the New Warriors being punked, but the remaining guys are in a better position for a major comeback.
 
Dread said:
Oh, and NEXTWAVE also annoys me because it and Ellis seems to act like it's the funniest thing in the universe. Kind of like how Jimmy Fallon seems to "smile in every sketch he ever did". It just comes off as pretentious. It even have a damned THEME-SONG. It just came off as trying way too hard sometimes to me. Like that kid in your class who'd do anything for a cheap laugh, and never realized that he was simply annoying. Like Tom Green.

Point taken.



I just like the cheesy unabashed looneyness of NextWave, even the Theme Song. You know between my 100th reading of Watchmen,DarkKnight,300,Sandman and every other uppety comic uber-nerds *********e over I like a little NextWave to cleanse the palette.
 
deemar325 said:
Hey no problem. I see your point, I'm not gonna try to flip your opinion and yeah I was kinda pissed about the New Warriors being punked, but the remaining guys are in a better position for a major comeback.
That much is true. The C-Listers who live past CW might have a boost. But you could find plenty of people who'd have rather not seen the NW used at all of "half of them were going to die".

And having a sense of humor with Machine Man is different than just warping him so he comes off as a Brit version of Bender, "fleshie". Ugh. Like I said, never expect to see him get used seriously again until at least 2011. For those who liked him, life sucks.

Plus, NEXTWAVE will be considered in continuity by Marvel and most readers. Why else is Ellis' version shown at the Secret Avengers camp if it's not supposed to be continuity? Even the handbooks noted it as continuity in Machine Man's bio, at least. So, whatever happens to anyone there is there to stay.

But yeah, I could maybe deal with all that but when I read the first 2 issues they were just lifeless. There was no soul to the work. It's hard to describe.

I'm not a total stick in the mud. I don't want comics devoid of humor. I've whined about the incessent darkness and grimness of comics all the time. I liked DR. STRANGE: OATH #1 and the new ANT-MAN. But NEXTWAVE I just see as missing the mark widely and going too far off the deep end to where it's wonkier and more soul-less and pointless than a Mad Parody, and if I wanted that, I'd read MAD (which I do). Anyway, if you like it, enjoy it now. It sells outside the Top 100, so it's death is inevitable.
 
But Dread, its...its EXTREME!:(
 
I'll miss it when it's gone, but it's no big deal. I'm more of a Dan Slott guy and Kirkman's Ant-man is looking good.

Overall I'm just not in the mood for dark comics unless it's already apart of the characters. I think what I'm really digging about NextWave is the two part story arcs.

If we had more books with the less is more approach and two issue arcs or done in ones, I'd buy a lot more books on a regular basis. NW is just one of the few Marvel books that does that and has a fun tone.
 
deemar325 said:
I'll miss it when it's gone, but it's no big deal. I'm more of a Dan Slott guy and Kirkman's Ant-man is looking good.

Overall I'm just not in the mood for dark comics unless it's already apart of the characters. I think what I'm really digging about NextWave is the two part story arcs.

If we had more books with the less is more approach and two issue arcs or done in ones, I'd buy a lot more books on a regular basis. NW is just on of the few Marvel books that does that and has a fun tone.
I mean if Ellis had just done his own creations like he did with Dirk Anger and The Captain, then it'd be VENTURE BROS. for Marvel and I'd probably dig it. But he chose to mangle C-Listers, probably because no one would have read it otherwise, and it tuned me off.

More of a Slott and Kirkman guy myself. Just read the first two HC's of INVINCIBLE. It's awesome and worth all the hype.
 
Dread said:
I mean if Ellis had just done his own creations like he did with Dirk Anger and The Captain, then it'd be VENTURE BROS. for Marvel and I'd probably dig it. But he chose to mangle C-Listers, probably because no one would have read it otherwise, and it tuned me off.

Yeah but the C-Listers, how is he ruining them? All Monica does is say how she was in the Avenger's every other sentence, Machine Man is always trying to plug beer into his head, Tabby and Elsa are always exploding things, and The Captain is The Captain. Its all satire, it can't be taken seriously? I don't see how the characters are being ruined. It made me looked up Machine Man's background. And the plug in Civil War I saw as a easter egg.:huh:

Dread said:
More of a Slott and Kirkman guy myself. Just read the first two HC's of INVINCIBLE. It's awesome and worth all the hype.

I'm glad you picked those up. Invincible is one of the best comics out right now. Kirkman is really a talented writer on that.
 
PWN3R RANGER said:
Yeah but the C-Listers, how is he ruining them? All Monica does is say how she was in the Avenger's every other sentence, Machine Man is always trying to plug beer into his head, Tabby and Elsa are always exploding things, and The Captain is The Captain. Its all satire, it can't be taken seriously? I don't see how the characters are being ruined. It made me looked up Machine Man's background. And the plug in Civil War I saw as a easter egg.:huh:
But, see, Monica is MORE that that (as well as more than being an "angry black woman" stereotype). Machine Man NEVER acted that wonky before, at least without being controled by Bastion. He's made them into cardboard cut outs diviod of any soul. Like I said, with Dirk Anger or The Captain, it works because they don't have any previous appearences.

Nick Fury was envisioned for the Anger role, but as he wasn't a C-Lister Marvel balked. Imagine if Fury really was in NEXTWAVE as Anger. Wouldn't that be irksome? Wouldn't that mangle his character's preceptions to readers, writers, and editors? Would you ever expect to see him handled seriously elsewhere before 2011 (or when ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK wraps, whichever comes first)? I'd say no.

They appeared in CW. "Easter Egg" is a DVD term that doesn't count in comics. When they appear in a panel, it's a cameo.

I'm glad you picked those up. Invincible is one of the best comics out right now. Kirkman is really a talented writer on that.
Yeah, it really is. My dilemma is either waiting until next year for the 3rd HC or just frabbing the last two trades (trade #7 just came out) and trying to hunt down the last 2-3 back issues to finally catch up. But either of which means more INVINCIBLE.
 
Dread said:
Nick Fury was envisioned for the Anger role, but as he wasn't a C-Lister Marvel balked. Imagine if Fury really was in NEXTWAVE as Anger. Wouldn't that be irksome? Wouldn't that mangle his character's preceptions to readers, writers, and editors? Would you ever expect to see him handled seriously elsewhere before 2011 (or when ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK wraps, whichever comes first)? I'd say no.

Garth Ennis recast him as a bloodthirsty 'Nam-vet who choked a dude to death with the dude's own intestines (or some such thing, I haven't read it in a while). And that that was pretty enjoyable, without irrecoverably damaging his usual portrayal.
 
Dread said:
Nick Fury was envisioned for the Anger role, but as he wasn't a C-Lister Marvel balked. Imagine if Fury really was in NEXTWAVE as Anger. Wouldn't that be irksome? Wouldn't that mangle his character's preceptions to readers, writers, and editors? Would you ever expect to see him handled seriously elsewhere before 2011 (or when ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK wraps, whichever comes first)? I'd say no.

I guess I see your point now. I enjoy Nextwave for its satire goofy-ness, yet never heard of Machine Man before this. I would be mad if they took Fury and made him "goofy". So yes I see your point, and you make total sense. I just didn't know enough about some of the characters to share your view, and now I am hooked to this book.:(

Dread said:
They appeared in CW. "Easter Egg" is a DVD term that doesn't count in comics. When they appear in a panel, it's a cameo.

I meant that it was a "spot the cameo" if you will. I really don't think Nextwave is in continuity, and really if Marvel wanted to use any of these characters seriously, they could retcon Nextwave very easly. They'll just say something like, "Retconning is cool, Nextwave is cool!" :p And to quote Ellis:

Warren Ellis said:
"NEXTWAVE is in fact the ONLY Marvel comic published in the last three years that's in 616 continuity. All the others are fakes. And Skrulls."



Dread said:
Yeah, it really is. My dilemma is either waiting until next year for the 3rd HC or just frabbing the last two trades (trade #7 just came out) and trying to hunt down the last 2-3 back issues to finally catch up. But either of which means more INVINCIBLE.

I jumped on the book at #30. I got the two HCs, then Vol. 6 of the trades. #35 just came out, you could get Vol. 6 and 7 of the trades, and grab #35. You would then be set.
 
Dread said:
That's exactly why I dropped NEXTWAVE after the first 2 issues. The book is soul-less. And I dislike the concept of taking oft neglected C listers and warping them completely into cardboard comedy cliches of which they will never recover from. Once you go "goofy", it is very rare for said character to be seen seriously ever again by anyone else, especially if it's for over a year.

Most if not all of the JLI cast survived their "silly, parodical" versions. Sure, DC has killed few of them but the others didn't keep their "JLI personalities". If the New Warriors had been done in the same fashion as NextWave I would have preferred it to their silly "Reality Bites" version which, unfortunately, was in continuity. To be honest, I don't care for all the NextWave characters as I did for the Warriors (well, most, the 2 last additions were part of Reality Bites :o), but I still don't take it seriously. Really, Dread, if all of these were third tier character that you didn't care for I don't think you would be complaining so much.
 
Dread said:
Oh, and NEXTWAVE also annoys me because it and Ellis seems to act like it's the funniest thing in the universe.


How does ellis 'act' like that?
 
Tropico said:
Most if not all of the JLI cast survived their "silly, parodical" versions. Sure, DC has killed few of them but the others didn't keep their "JLI personalities". If the New Warriors had been done in the same fashion as NextWave I would have preferred it to their silly "Reality Bites" version which, unfortunately, was in continuity. To be honest, I don't care for all the NextWave characters as I did for the Warriors (well, most, the 2 last additions were part of Reality Bites :o), but I still don't take it seriously. Really, Dread, if all of these were third tier character that you didn't care for I don't think you would be complaining so much.

I don't care for any of the characters in Nextwave, but I care that they had some depth AND history in the Marvel Universe that Ellis just pissed on so he can tell his "funny" story.

That... is disrespectful to their creators AND to the fans that enjoyed these characters. :cmad:

Really... if he wanted Bender, he should have simply created a Bender, as opposed to turning X-51 into a Bender wanna-be.

There are TONS of C-lister characters in the Marvel U. that we haven't seen in a long time, but hopefully, whenever a talented writer wants to use one, they write them within the already established character that they have had, and not written because said writer wants to tell "his/her" tale incorporating their own history with said characters.

:huh:

:yay:
 
Themanofbat said:
I don't care for any of the characters in Nextwave, but I care that they had some depth AND history in the Marvel Universe that Ellis just pissed on so he can tell his "funny" story.

That... is disrespectful to their creators AND to the fans that enjoyed these characters. :cmad:

Really... if he wanted Bender, he should have simply created a Bender, as opposed to turning X-51 into a Bender wanna-be.

There are TONS of C-lister characters in the Marvel U. that we haven't seen in a long time, but hopefully, whenever a talented writer wants to use one, they write them within the already established character that they have had, and not written because said writer wants to tell "his/her" tale incorporating their own history with said characters.

:huh:

:yay:

What, like Slott made Living Lightning gay?:D That kind of respect to the creator and fans of the character?:confused: Or does he get a free pass because he's "funnier" to a broader audience?:huh: Meh, people can go on an anti-Ellis rant all they want but he's not the only one that does what he does. They don't take themselves seriously in NextWave, people should take the hint.
 
Tropico said:
What, like Slott made Living Lightning gay?:D That kind of respect to the creator and fans of the character?:confused: Or does he get a free pass because he's "funnier" to a broader audience?:huh: Meh, people can go on an anti-Ellis rant all they want but he's not the only one that does what he does. They don't take themselves seriously in NextWave, people should take the hint.

im pretty sure he was gay before Slott
 
roach said:
im pretty sure he was gay before Slott

Actually, I remember when it came out how many people were saying that Slott had made a flubb this time since it was shown in Avengers that he was going out with women (or was courting a specific woman, I can't remember which). People, of course, started saying that maybe he was gay all along and those were just "beards". I have no problems with Slott, I think he's a great writer; I just find it funny how people make up excuses for writers they like but go out of their way to (falsely) condemn those they don't like.;)
 
Themanofbat said:
I don't care for any of the characters in Nextwave, but I care that they had some depth AND history in the Marvel Universe that Ellis just pissed on so he can tell his "funny" story.

That... is disrespectful to their creators AND to the fans that enjoyed these characters. :cmad:


We really are taking this a tad too seriously I think.

C list characters are expendable, thats pretty much why they are C list characters.

The beauty is though if alan moore suddenly has a great machine man story the nature of fictional characters allows him to still be able to do that and ignore nextwave.

So everyone chill, we're in danger of taking something insignificant too seriously.
 
Yeah, Living Lightning was pretty heterosexual before Slott made him gay.
 
Dread said:
Oh, and NEXTWAVE also annoys me because it and Ellis seems to act like it's the funniest thing in the universe. Kind of like how Jimmy Fallon seems to "smile in every sketch he ever did". It just comes off as pretentious. It even have a damned THEME-SONG. It just came off as trying way too hard sometimes to me. Like that kid in your class who'd do anything for a cheap laugh, and never realized that he was simply annoying. Like Tom Green.

I agree Dread,Nextwave gets thrown around at the hawtness alot.

As for Kirkman,I'm not crazy about the guy's stuff.Go ahead and flame me(I know he has alot of fans on here) but his writing isn't my thing.
 
Bah, I love Machine Man and I STILL love Nextwave.

it may not being the funniest thing in the universe, but it's one of the funniest comics out right now.
 
gildea said:
The beauty is though if alan moore suddenly has a great machine man story the nature of fictional characters allows him to still be able to do that and ignore nextwave.

Alan Moore has tremendous respect for continuity and stories of creators past.

The Killing Joke is a classic example of this, taking his story of the Red Hood in reference to Detective Comics #152 (somewhere in that numbering) and going with what was told in that story and used it to his advantage.

Great writers will use continuity to enhance their creativity, not as an excuse that hinders their inability to tell a tale.

And as far as The Living Lightning thing with Slott, again, that'd be inexcusable and Slott should have known.

The bottom line is that I like both Slott and Ellis.... I just like Ellis' original material better, because he really can tell good stories with his own creations. But he sucks big ones when it comes to other people's creations, and I wish he'd just stay away from established characters... A, B, C & D-listers alike.

:yay:
 
Tropico said:
Actually, I remember when it came out how many people were saying that Slott had made a flubb this time since it was shown in Avengers that he was going out with women (or was courting a specific woman, I can't remember which). People, of course, started saying that maybe he was gay all along and those were just "beards". I have no problems with Slott, I think he's a great writer; I just find it funny how people make up excuses for writers they like but go out of their way to (falsely) condemn those they don't like.;)

I wasn't making up excuses.

Ellis writes crap when writing established characters.

Ellis is a genius when it comes to his own work; ie, Transmetropolitan. :word:

I like Ellis.

I just wish he'd use continuity as a tool instead of thinking it's a hinderance.

:yay:
 
Themanofbat said:
I just wish he'd use continuity as a tool instead of thinking it's a hinderance.

:yay:

It can be both.

Regardless I don't think we're going to convince one another on this. Hey ho different strokes for different folks.
 

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