TheCorpulent1
SHAZAM!
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No one ever convinces anyone of anything on a message board. The fact that we go around in circles all day without ever giving any ground is part of the fun. 

Ennis' dislike for superheroes is well known, but making Nick Fury a bloodthirsty war vet is more in tune with him than would turning him into a Dirk Anger injoke. Hence why Dirk Anger works. Making Nick Fury a joke wouldn't have worked.fifthfiend said:Garth Ennis recast him as a bloodthirsty 'Nam-vet who choked a dude to death with the dude's own intestines (or some such thing, I haven't read it in a while). And that that was pretty enjoyable, without irrecoverably damaging his usual portrayal.
Glad you see my point. And I'm sure you won't be the only one who feels that way. Expect to see Machine Man rattle off Brit jibberish and call people "fleshies" from now on. Some could say, "at least Machine Man has a memorable schtick now", but by that logic, I should revamp The Spot and make him wear a black ***** outside his pants and make crude vagina references due to his powers to make him memorable. It'd work, all right. WIZARD and the grown up juveniles of the bullpen would eat it with a spoon. But would it fit Ohn?I guess I see your point now. I enjoy Nextwave for its satire goofy-ness, yet never heard of Machine Man before this. I would be mad if they took Fury and made him "goofy". So yes I see your point, and you make total sense. I just didn't know enough about some of the characters to share your view, and now I am hooked to this book.
Actually, I don't really care for any of them. That doesn't mean I enjoyed seeming them written like cardboard gag reels with bizarre stereotypical personas. I'm not that shallow a fan. I saw how damaging NEXTWAVE was going to be for these characters showing up elsewhere. A shallow fan only cares about what happens to THEIR faves and doesn't give a rat's rear about everyone else. I'm not like that, and I know I'm not alone in that.Tropico said:Most if not all of the JLI cast survived their "silly, parodical" versions. Sure, DC has killed few of them but the others didn't keep their "JLI personalities". If the New Warriors had been done in the same fashion as NextWave I would have preferred it to their silly "Reality Bites" version which, unfortunately, was in continuity. To be honest, I don't care for all the NextWave characters as I did for the Warriors (well, most, the 2 last additions were part of Reality Bites ), but I still don't take it seriously. Really, Dread, if all of these were third tier character that you didn't care for I don't think you would be complaining so much.
My source is straight-up troof.gildea said:LoL
NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!!
SITE YOUR SOURCE!!
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Dread said:Just I have a feeling when you look at the cast of Nextwave, you're not going to see any of them used seriously afterwards for quite some time because too many people's first interactions with them was due to NEXTWAVE so they mistake it for being accurate when it's not.
But, has this EVER happened at Marvel? Seriously, I mean has a C-List Marvel character who was written as a joke for over a year's worth of stories suddenly bounced back and was used competantly and made the spotlight? If so it shouldn't be hard to name one. I mentioned Dr. Strange but he's B-List.gildea said:As you pointed out nextwave sells very badly so is this really a great concern?
I really think people tend not to use these characters isn't because of goofy stories, but because they are C-list characters. Any creator that has a burning desire to write a machine man story isn't going to be put off by a 20000 selling comedy comic. All c-list character are one great story away from the spot light regardless of their past IMO.
Dread said:But, has this EVER happened at Marvel? Seriously, I mean has a C-List Marvel character who was written as a joke for over a year's worth of stories suddenly bounced back and was used competantly and made the spotlight? If so it shouldn't be hard to name one. I mentioned Dr. Strange but he's B-List.
That should be true. But I'm looking at things in reality. In reality, both Marvel and DC avoid "comedy" or light-heartedness like the plague in the race to be as grim, dark, urban and dire as possible. And usually characters (and even writers) stuck in the niche of "comedy writing" have a hard time breaking out of it if they have light interludes. In theory, your statement should be true. But in practice, characters who've made a name for being jokes within the Joe Q EIC years have had a hard time breaking free from it, so much so that I can't think of one that has.The Question said:The thing is, I really don't see what's happening to the characters in Nextwave as a bad thing. Comedy is not a bad thing and doesn't inherently hurt characters. I think, at least.
Dread said:That should be true. But I'm looking at things in reality. In reality, both Marvel and DC avoid "comedy" or light-heartedness like the plague in the race to be as grim, dark, urban and dire as possible. And usually characters (and even writers) stuck in the niche of "comedy writing" have a hard time breaking out of it if they have light interludes. In theory, your statement should be true. But in practice, characters who've made a name for being jokes within the Joe Q EIC years have had a hard time breaking free from it, so much so that I can't think of one that has.
Dread said:And I specifically asked for Marvel examples because DC has a few. DC usually is a little better for their C listers than Marvel, if only because they have a more interconnected universe. Heroes pass through the Titans and either go into the JLA or the JSA and all the adult heroes have heirs to groom. Marvel doesn't do that because they refuse to have characters age or monnikers change hands. Although DC's also followed suit by, say, seeking to make Hal Jordon GL by erasing everything that gave him character conflict. But I'm digressing. Half the JLI are dead. The rest will follow, give it time.
Dread said:Experience has taught me that I can talk about anything on SHH and the only comic topics that seem to incite the most ire are:
1). Stating any flaw in a Whedon issue of ASTONISHING or, gasp, claiming it's been overrated for a good year now
2). Not falling over in helpless belly laughs at Nextwave
Dread said:Slott'll usually be forgiven for making Living Lightening gay. All human beings are hypocrites in some way or form, and I don't deny it. Just some are flaming hypocrites (and usually either lawyers or politicians) and others try to keep it in check.
Dread said:Just I have a feeling when you look at the cast of Nextwave, you're not going to see any of them used seriously afterwards for quite some time because too many people's first interactions with them was due to NEXTWAVE so they mistake it for being accurate when it's not. Again, if Ellis had just created original dopplegangers like Anger and Captain, it'd have worked out better I think.
Granted, I can't take Fin Fang Foom's underpants seriously, either.![]()
Tropico said:Meanwhile, I'll keep on laughing with NextWave regardless of what people say about those of us who really DO enjoy it.up:
Themanofbat said:And judging from the sales numbers, there's only a few of you...t:
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TheCorpulent1 said:You're just mad because you're, like, a B-list poster at best.![]()
I'm sure that'll happen, too. I guess as I get older I start seeing the world as it really is, instead of how I'd like it to be. Idealism vs. Realism. The ideal would be that writers would use mind-boggling creativity to pluck obscure or mishandled heroes, villians, even supporting characters and just give them a fresh, modern spin that somehow keeps some of their roots intact (a hard task, don't get me wrong), and an EIC and editorial department that actively promoted it and held summit meetings encourage it. But they don't. It's all about the next event, the next issue of New Avengers, and so on. I'll admit this year is a little better with MOON KNIGHT being relaunched well, DR. STRANGE getting a decent stab at a mini and who knows how well ANT-MAN will do. But CIVIL WAR basically has a messload of characters being bent to the will of a storyline regardless of how they've acted in the past under the banner of, "this time it's different for whatever reason", so I get pessimistic.The Question said:True, I suppose. But then, things never got better with people complaining about the way things are. Things got better by things changing. I'm sure, sonewhere down the line, a writer will finally think to him or herself "Golly gee willikers, funny characters can ALSO be taken seriously when used in different types of stories!"
New Defenders? Do you mean the 80's stuff or the last mini with Giffen & DeMattis (spelling)? As for them, I'd consider them all B-Listers. As in, Strange, Namor, Surfer, and Hulk all either have ongoings or get new ongoings or mini's rather frequently. Machine Man, Photon, Elsa Bloodstone either haven't had one in ages or have been supporting players for ages. That's the distinction. They're also newer characters.Tropico said:If there are writers that can pull it off at DC, there are writers that can pull it off at Marvel. New Defenders was in continuity. Are the characters being portrayed the same way as they were in the mini? Oh, wait, they're not C-listers and therefore don't fall into the kind of examples you want. I was just using the writer thing to illustrate anyway. I don't see what the point of the whole aging/changing teams/evolving argument was about; I'll just chalk it up to you usual Marvel criticism.
"Ire" was just clever word usage. My point is sometimes I shoot my keyboard off but the topics that really get in rebuttals are usually either when I bash Nextwave, or when I bash Whedon's Astonishing. I can write anything else about comics and I usually get less frequent rebuttals. It's no biggie. It's just something I've noticed. I'm sure if I bashed Slott, I'd get a lot of heat too. But I wouldn't; he's rad.Ire? LOL. Wait.....LOL!!!! You're being serious? C'mon, you're being sarcastic and incredibly selective in your example on purpose to illustrate something, right? 'Cause most of the "arguments" I've seen from people are people being silly. I mean, sure, there are people that are deeply offended like DBM (and I guess you) by NextWave, but the people "defending" aren't taking it seriously.
I never denied they're still hypocrites. But people forgive the mistakes of writers and works they like and only get critical when they dislike them, mostly. It's human nature. Humans are bastards like that. No work is perfect and I do spot quibbles in stuff I like, but I can live with it.They're still hypocrites, though. They should be saying that Slott treated Living Lightning like a cardboard cut-out and how it was soulless and all that jibber jabber.
Cojones are good. Now name an example. One C-List Marvel character treated as a parody for years who then all of a sudden became hot stuff when they got some cool writer on them. One. Within Joe Q's tenure. Then I'll surrender the point.Just like you have a feeling that Marvel won't use any of these characters seriously again, I have a feeling that if they had all been unknown characters there would still be some character bashing around, especially comparing them to who they were supposed to be like. The message I get from you is that all characters should be respected and none thrown away (especially after your last post, the one after this one I'm quoting). I disagree. Some characters actually grow from being dragged through the mud or because they died and someone else took the name (say that Marvel doesn't do it, but I actually have the cojones to tell you you're wrong) as an inspiration. Many of them turn out to be cooler than their predecessor. And, yes, some of them bounce back from being "funny".
The New Warriors are an example of a franchise that Marvel's bungled quite a bit since the 90's across at least 2 EIC's. I have stated several times that at least the ones that're left may finally have a worthwhile purpose if they get another stab at an ongoing. What I have noticed is that when an A or even B list character gets bungled for a long time, naturally Marvel will focus on trying to "fix" them. Sometimes that works better than others especially in the age of simply "tossing a book at a writer and going, 'Have fun!'", which works for good or ill depending on who it is. But the C-Listers are the ones who can spend half a generation in limbo and take ages to ever get decent.Are the New Warriors an absolute example of how Marvel is going to behave with "damaged characters"? I don't know, I don't have the certainty you seem to have. I don't have that power to see what Marvel policies are without even knowing how they work internally. There are a few things happening in Marvel that have shown me that the writers can do good stuff, too. For all you know Slott will get his hands on these same characters and prove you wrong. Or maybe some other writer. Who knows. Meanwhile, I'll keep on laughing with NextWave regardless of what people say about those of us who really DO enjoy it.
So there's no doubt, without ire...
Tropico
Why do you have a problem with this fan-term? It is true. Even writers and editors sometimes use these terms. Even though we all acknowledge that any character can be as good or bad as they are written, in reality there is a totem pole. Just for an example:fifthfiend said:Oh man it just hit me, I can't believe it's gotten this far into this without me unpacking my standard ***** about referring to comics characters as A- B- and C-listers.
Okay are you ready guys, here we go:
Referring to comics characters as A- B- and C- listers is ****ing stupid, and people shouldn't do that.
Okay so you got the abridged version, what the **** do you want from me?
Dread said:Cojones are good. Now name an example. One C-List Marvel character treated as a parody for years who then all of a sudden became hot stuff when they got some cool writer on them. One. Within Joe Q's tenure. Then I'll surrender the point.
Totally. It's all middle-aged hookers who won't even let you do blow off their nipples down on the B-list.fifthfiend said:Naw dude believe me I've seen the A-list, it's all petty power struggles and ever-needier fans. I'm happier out of the limelight.
The endorsement deals and teenage ****es, those I kind of miss sometimes.
Dread said:Cojones are good. Now name an example. One C-List Marvel character treated as a parody for years who then all of a sudden became hot stuff when they got some cool writer on them. One. Within Joe Q's tenure. Then I'll surrender the point.
Dread said:Why do you have a problem with this fan-term? It is true. Even writers and editors sometimes use these terms. Even though we all acknowledge that any character can be as good or bad as they are written, in reality there is a totem pole. Just for an example:
A-List: Wolverine
B-List: Dr. Strange
C-List: Machine Man
Z-List: Thunderclap
It comes down to popularity, appearences, age of the character, and quality of past appearences.
Totally. It's all middle-aged hookers who won't even let you do blow off their nipples down on the B-list.
gildea said:Speedball.
Anyway as a sort of reversal of this argument how many acclaimed series under joe q's tenure have been written about monica, machine man etc?
As far as I'm aware they've been absent for a while but there was no comedy series featuring them before this was there?
Its not to the comedy that kills these characters its because in general no one wants to use them. Not the writers, not the company and in general the fans don't want to read about them.
Heck people should be greatful ellis has given them a bit of limelight...