Famous turning points and shake ups in comics.

[runawayboulder]

I was thinking about this today. Can anyone name some? Easy examples of course would be the Clone Saga and OMD for Spider-Man.

But I want to go back a little bit further though. Like the "Dream's End" arc in X-Men. It pretty much signified the end of 90's X-Men comics as they segued into the next decade with the Grant Morrison era and with Eve of Destruction being the final stamp on the decade. In Dream's End longtime supporting characters like Senator Kelly and Moira MacTaggert were killed off and things never felt the same after that.

Does anyone have more they can think of? Avengers, FF, Thor, Iron Man or any DC stuff as well like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern....? I'm hoping this thread will spark up some reminiscing about old era's for some of these comics so it could benefit any newer fans interested in older stories.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

ooooooooooo Good one Run I am Game!

significant moments hmmm.....

The death of Gwen Stacy- personally (and Vulcan has to get alittle serious here) someone close to me had passed away and thru this book i was able to somehow understand death. it also i think took the innocence away from Spidey. Sure he still made all the jokes still but spidey was never the same after that.He felt responsible for her death and i think under the jokes he got serious as hell! which is why i love Spidey to this day. All the other heroes just see a clown but he hid his pain behind the jokes that the other heroes still dont get!

Demon in a bottle- it showed dude was more than a playboy. His alcoholism wasnt just "oh let me drink and be happy". it showed dude has alot of weight on his shoulders and that's how it help him deal with it. Again why i dig Marvel so much cause this is what leads people down that road in the 1st place, even superheroes! it what gives him his Humanity and made Tony not so much a man of iron but vulnerable! he also was never the same!

 

[Energist]

Daredevil getting outted.

And because Bendis used it as a catalyst to write the above story, I'll also mention the death of Karen Page, even though I still think it was poorly handled and ultimately unnecessary.

 

[Mr. Dent]

-As Blackvulcan said above, Death of Gwen Stacy is probably the biggest turning point for Spidey before the end of the Clone Sage and OMD.

-The Amazing Spider-Man #299, "Survival of the Hittest" which pretty much represented the end of the black suit saga and the first appearance of Venom.

-While it's not an old story, Iron Man v4 #1-4 Extremis arc. Completely revitalized the character for the 21st century. There weren't a lot of shake ups in Iron Man comics before that beside Demon in a Bottle and the storyline where Tony became US Secretary of State.

-Thor v3 #82-86 Ragnarok. This shook up Thor's mythos a lot, ended Thor's book, and left him absent from the Marvel U for a while.

-The Galactus Trilogy is pretty big as far as old FF stories go. It introduces Galactus and Silver Surfer and sets up a lot of cosmic stuff for the future of the entire Marvel U.

-Avengers...there are a lot of changes and shake ups that occur in the Avengers. New rosters, teammates added, etc. A pretty big first one was when Iron Man, Giant-Man, Thor, and Wasp left the team and the new roster was Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Hawkeye, which I think happened in Avengers 15-17. More shake-ups woud be Infinity Gauntlet and Operation Galactic Storm/Kree vs Skrull war. Also the introduction of Ultron obviously.

-Batman...man he's very easy to point out. Pretty much all the stuff from the late-80s early-90s are good shake up stories. Of course, The Dark Knight Returns completely changed the way comic writers and fans saw Batman and forever changed him from that campy character of the Silver Age to the dark brooder we have now. Year One obviously. The Killing Joke, which resulted in Barbara being paralyzed. The Man Who Laughs, while not so much as a shake up, really defined who the Joker was in combination with TKJ. Then you have the Knightfall storyline where Bane took out Batman's back and Azazele had to become Batman for a while. Then of course there was Death in the Family. Man, so many good shake ups and stories for Batman back then. It's even more crazy when you think about how that was also the time Tim Burton's Batman movies were a phenomenon and Batman TAS was changing the way people saw cartoons and the Batman mythos themselves. I sort of wish I weren't a baby at that time so I could live through that heyday...but hey, we're having our own little renaissance right now, right?

-Superman is obviously the Death of Superman. That's the biggest on I can think of since I haven't really read a lot of Superman stuff or payed attention to it. I guess The Man of Steel was pretty important as well as a way to redefine Clark's character origins.

-A big shake up for DC itself was the introduction of the Justice League in Brave and the Bold (can't remember the issue number exactly).

 

[Hawkingbird]

This was actually asked at Comic Con yesterday. Roy Thomas and Herb Temple seemed to say it was the 80s and 70s.

 

[runawayboulder]

-The Amazing Spider-Man #299, "Survival of the Hittest" which pretty much represented the end of the black suit saga and the first appearance of Venom.

That's a good example. I would mark ASM #300 as the final stamp of that era. The beginning of the end for that era can be traced back to ASM #289 - the Hobgoblin reveal issue. The preceding Gang War arc tied up a lot of stuff that had been going on during the DeFalco/Frenz run and it was some of their last issues. ASM #289 (in conjunction with the Spider-Man vs Wolverine book) was the end of the original Hobgoblin story.

Between ASM 290-299 was more of a transitional phase. There was a lot of filler stuff due to all the behind the scenes stuff. Michelinie started his run, only to have to pause it for Kraven's Last Hunt and the Mad Dog Ward stories, then he resumed it. Everything culminated with the Venom issues and ASM 300. After 301, things were very different as Peter and MJ adjusted to married life and Peter resumed school.


As for the Avengers, there was also a period of transition with the lead up to Avengers #300. Starting with Avengers #291, the team slowly began to disband. Cap had left the team because it was during the Cap Quits story, Namor and Marrina left after Marrina mutated into a sea monster and Captain Marvel/Photon disappeared during that battle.

That left just Thor, Black Knight, Dr Druid and She-Hulk to deal with Nebula. That encounter cost them Druid who was lost in a worm hole and She-Hulk quit the team. Black Knight accompanied Thor to Asgard to deal with a crisis effectively ending the team. The next few issues including 300 were tie-ins with Inferno as Cap formed a new roster including himself, Thor, Gilgamesh, Reed Richards and Susan Storm. This led to a long period of stability starting with Avengers 301 all the way up to the series end with 402 during Onslaught. The rosters changed a few times but they shored up all of their resources, support staff and rebuilt the membership roster for a very long period.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Hmm... regarding X-Men:

Giant-Sized X-Men #1 - The first change of the guard that redefined the X-Men and saved the franchise.

Uncanny X-Men 225-227 (Fall of the Mutants) - Claremont was really good at spreading out his stories and introducing characters so that it was hard to see a clear turning point for the book. This was the first real one I could see in his X-Men run though, where it was when the X-Men "died" and relocated to the Australian Outback. It was a complete status quo change at the time.

Uncanny X-Men 252 - I think this is the issue, but it's when Psylocke telepathically forced the X-Men to enter the Siege Perilous. This issue marked the end of the Australian Outback days and entered a period of disjointed X-Men tales. The team was no longer a team, spread out and confused. It ushered in a very strange period in the X-Men's history that I personally really enjoyed.

X-Men #1/Uncanny X-Men #281 - The above mentioned disjointed era ended with the Muir Island Saga but the big status quo change didn't occure until these two issues, which marked the 90s relaunch and redefined the X-Men into the most recognizable era for most readers. It combined most of the former X-Characters, as well as really introduced us to Gambit, Jubilee, Bishop, etc. (though some of these had already been in the comics for a while). Perhaps the biggest thing though was the Xavier and the original X-Men were back on the team. The huge 90s generation of X-Men started here.

New X-Men 114: Grant Morrison - There were a lot of little "turning points" in the 90s but none of them were that major. It wasn't until Morrison came on that the next major turning point began. As boulder said, this transition really started with Dream's End and then Eve of Destruction, but this is where the effects were really felt.

Astonishing X-Men #1 - Morrison's run wrapped up fairly quietly and this was where the new shift took place. It was a completely different feel and drove this new heroic idea that Morrison shied away from. It brought the fun back into the book. It also contained the era of House of M, which I considered making a separate listing but felt it wasn't necessary, as it was just a part of the Astonishing team's story (albeit, in another title).

Messiah Complex - I think this picked up right when the heroic Astonishing years ended and it's effects/era ran straight through until the end of AvX. This was when the fight for mutant kind's existence really became a plot, the mutant messiah was introduced, the X-Men became a military unit under Cyclops, utilizing measures before unheard of from the X-Men (such as X-Force), and it was just a dark dark time. It also moved the X-Men to the West Coast, which was the first X-Men move since they returned from Australia.


I'm debating on whether Schism would be its own turning point or not. It created a rift storyline but is ultimately still contained in the Mutant Messiah time period. It didn't have much of an effect on AvX (save for Wolverine's role) and AvX itself created the biggest rift that the X-Men feel today, bigger than Schism did.

 

[Czar Colossus]

These are obvious but since nobody mentioned them;
Marvel - X-men Second Genesis, Millers run on DareDevil, Civil War
DC - Crisis on Infinite Earths
and of course the god aweful New 52

 

[runawayboulder]

New X-Men 114: Grant Morrison - There were a lot of little "turning points" in the 90s but none of them were that major. It wasn't until Morrison came on that the next major turning point began. As boulder said, this transition really started with Dream's End and then Eve of Destruction, but this is where the effects were really felt.

Astonishing X-Men #1 - Morrison's run wrapped up fairly quietly and this was where the new shift took place. It was a completely different feel and drove this new heroic idea that Morrison shied away from. It brought the fun back into the book. It also contained the era of House of M, which I considered making a separate listing but felt it wasn't necessary, as it was just a part of the Astonishing team's story (albeit, in another title).

Messiah Complex - I think this picked up right when the heroic Astonishing years ended and it's effects/era ran straight through until the end of AvX. This was when the fight for mutant kind's existence really became a plot, the mutant messiah was introduced, the X-Men became a military unit under Cyclops, utilizing measures before unheard of from the X-Men (such as X-Force), and it was just a dark dark time. It also moved the X-Men to the West Coast, which was the first X-Men move since they returned from Australia.


I'm debating on whether Schism would be its own turning point or not. It created a rift storyline but is ultimately still contained in the Mutant Messiah time period. It didnt' have much of an effect on AvX (save for Wolverine's role) and AvX itself created the biggest rift that the X-Men feel today, bigger than Schism did.

This has been a big problem with the X-Men since Morrison. There have been an overload of turning points. The line is constantly been shaken up when it didn't need it....like House of M, the 198, moving to San Francisco/Utopia then Schism.

 

[Specter313]

Love it or hate it, I'd certainly consider the whole Avengers: Disassembled/relaunch a big turning point for that franchise.

This has been a big problem with the X-Men since Morrison. There have been an overload of turning points. The line is constantly been shaken up when it didn't need it....like House of M, the 198, moving to San Francisco/Utopia then Schism.

Completely agree. I really liked the whole move out to San Fran, because it showed growth with the mutant population in being accepted in the wider scope of things, instead of always reverting back to the "being hated by everyone normal" thing. But then they're forced out on to Utopia, then breaking in half with Schism, then ending Utopia altogether and back to New York after AvX. All within a few years. They never had a chance for the storylines to breath and grow and put down roots before they were all ripped up and put into something new.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I don't think San Francisco lasted a whole year. Utopia had SOME legs, though it was hindered by Schism. I was very sad to see it cast to the wayside after AvX.

That's been a big Marvel thing though. They don't allow status quos to last. They do a new one and are already planning to shake it up before we even get the first issue. Classic writers like Claremont would be their nightmare.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The beginning of Walt Simonson's Thor run had one of the character's biggest turning points: Don Blake went away as Odin transferred the enchantment allowing Thor to transform back and forth over to Stormbreaker so Beta Ray Bill could return to his original Korbinite form. That opened the door to the much greater focus on Thor's life as Thor that has filled his comics ever since. Other human hosts have come and gone, Blake's even come back, but ultimately they tend to be treated as extraneous. Whether fans want them or not, writers, it seems, just want to write about Thor in Thor.

Another major turning point was the death of Odin in Thor vol. 2. For all his power, Thor was conceptually still pretty much an adolescent in his comics. A lot of his stories involved the father/son theme, either in the form of disputes or Thor seeking Odin's approval or Odin rescuing Thor from problems too big for him to handle on his own. Dan Jurgens killed Odin off and made it stick for long enough that the safety net essentially went away and Thor was forced to grow up. No one was responsible for his life anymore but him. This led to disastrous consequences in the King Thor Saga, but Thor overcame that and finished his transition to adulthood. Even when Odin returned later on, the loss of Thor's childhood manifested in the much more contentious relationship he and Odin had. Odin had pulled some stunts to earn Thor's anger before, but after his resurrection Odin was just a straight-up jerk. Granted, that's mostly because Matt Fraction did a terrible job with Thor, but Thor and Odin's embattled relationship could also be viewed as a natural consequence of redefining the father/son relationship now that the son has had a chance to be as much a man and a leader in his own right as the father. The previously subservient nature of Thor's relationship with Odin ended with his death and Thor's assumption of the throne. Being forced back into that position by Odin's return necessarily grated on both of their nerves, especially given the overwhelming pride of both. Now Odin's gone again in self-imposed exile and Thor has essentially divorced himself from Asgard altogether in favor of Earth superheroics, basically echoing that old adage that "you can't go home again."

Or maybe I think about Thor's comics way too much. Whichever.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I've always wanted to read that era of Thor after Odin died through Ragnarok (aka, Disassembled). I just don't really want to spend money on it. It's a problem.

I have the same problem with Daredevil pre-Bendis.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It was well before Disassembled that Odin died. Thor himself actually died in the arc that ended Thor vol. 2 and coincided with Avengers Disassembled, along with all of Asgard.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Oh, I know. But didn't the whole King Thor stuff run until the arc previous to Ragnarok? Or at least very close to that point? I was talking about that whole era starting with Odin's death and concluding with Ragnarok.

And regarding Odin's death... where would be the best place to begin reading in that era. What leads up to Odin's death?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, I thought you meant "through Ragnarok" as in it was Ragnarok that killed him. My bad.

Odin dies in #40 of that series, I believe. I actually was only reading Thor on and off at that point because my official Marvel subscription had ended and I was in high school so I didn't really have a ton of money to spend, so I still haven't actually read the stuff leading up to Odin's death or Odin's actual death issue itself. I picked it back up regularly an issue or two before Thor assumes the crown, which is #44 (a silent issue--remember that month, back in the early '00s?). The King Thor Saga effectively lasts from then until the Ragnarok arc starts in #80, although there are two distinct parts to it. The first lasts from the #40s to #58 and takes place in the present. #59 and 60 are transitional issues focused on time periods between the present and the far future. #61 to 80 are about the distant future.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I think one big Batman/DC one was Babel. It set up some I the distrust within the League that continued in Identity Crisis and other stories. It also popularized the idea of Batman's "don't trust anybody" attitude, which continued with Brother Eye and was passed on to Red Robin in his series.

 

[runawayboulder]

That Jurgens run was nothing short of amazing. He pretty much did the entire run of Vol 2 save for the Ragnarok arc that Oeming took care of. It brings up an interesting question, why didn't Jurgens stick around. I really can't remember for the life of me? Was he simply done? Was he pissed that they were cancelling the book for Disassembled?

 

[Czar Colossus]

The beginning of Walt Simonson's Thor run had one of the character's biggest turning points: Don Blake went away as Odin transferred the enchantment allowing Thor to transform back and forth over to Stormbreaker so Beta Ray Bill could return to his original Korbinite form. That opened the door to the much greater focus on Thor's life as Thor that has filled his comics ever since. Other human hosts have come and gone, Blake's even come back, but ultimately they tend to be treated as extraneous. Whether fans want them or not, writers, it seems, just want to write about Thor in Thor.

Another major turning point was the death of Odin in Thor vol. 2. For all his power, Thor was conceptually still pretty much an adolescent in his comics. A lot of his stories involved the father/son theme, either in the form of disputes or Thor seeking Odin's approval or Odin rescuing Thor from problems too big for him to handle on his own. Dan Jurgens killed Odin off and made it stick for long enough that the safety net essentially went away and Thor was forced to grow up. No one was responsible for his life anymore but him. This led to disastrous consequences in the King Thor Saga, but Thor overcame that and finished his transition to adulthood. Even when Odin returned later on, the loss of Thor's childhood manifested in the much more contentious relationship he and Odin had. Odin had pulled some stunts to earn Thor's anger before, but after his resurrection Odin was just a straight-up jerk. Granted, that's mostly because Matt Fraction did a terrible job with Thor, but Thor and Odin's embattled relationship could also be viewed as a natural consequence of redefining the father/son relationship now that the son has had a chance to be as much a man and a leader in his own right as the father. The previously subservient nature of Thor's relationship with Odin ended with his death and Thor's assumption of the throne. Being forced back into that position by Odin's return necessarily grated on both of their nerves, especially given the overwhelming pride of both. Now Odin's gone again in self-imposed exile and Thor has essentially divorced himself from Asgard altogether in favor of Earth superheroics, basically echoing that old adage that "you can't go home again."

Or maybe I think about Thor's comics way too much. Whichever.

There can never be enough good said about Thor my friend (and Simonson's run was one of the best and most important for comics). I remember a highlight for me was the Clark Kent cameo!

 

[CrimsonMist]

Surprised no one's mentioned Swamp Thing #21, "The Anatomy Lesson", by Alan Moore.

Speaking of Swamp Thing, I'd consider Rick Veitch quitting the book a turning point as well. Having read the infamous "Swamp Thing Meets Jesus" script and seeing the art, it would have no doubt have been an incredible issue. And had Veitch etch stuck around to finish his run, Jamie Delano and Neil Gaiman would have taken over the book. Instead, he quit, Gaiman and Delano bowed out and the book languished in varrying mediocrity until cancellation.

 

[Hawkingbird]

I think Bendis completely changed Avengers for good. He re-introduced them into the mainstream universe.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Oh, I thought you meant "through Ragnarok" as in it was Ragnarok that killed him. My bad.

Odin dies in #40 of that series, I believe. I actually was only reading Thor on and off at that point because my official Marvel subscription had ended and I was in high school so I didn't really have a ton of money to spend, so I still haven't actually read the stuff leading up to Odin's death or Odin's actual death issue itself. I picked it back up regularly an issue or two before Thor assumes the crown, which is #44 (a silent issue--remember that month, back in the early '00s?). The King Thor Saga effectively lasts from then until the Ragnarok arc starts in #80, although there are two distinct parts to it. The first lasts from the #40s to #58 and takes place in the present. #59 and 60 are transitional issues focused on time periods between the present and the far future. #61 to 80 are about the distant future.

'Nuff Said month... that was a bomb of an event. Marvel wanted to prove that their art could portray the story without dialogue, because they were THAT good, and I ended up only liking maybe 2 or 3 issues that I read for that entire month. I don't even remember what they were.

And yeah, I read the issue following his death, starting when Thor was running toward the wreckage of his chariot (I think that's what it was) and then I read Ragnarok, which was amazing. I remember there was a promotion at the time saying someone major would die in either Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, or Incredible Hulk sometime in a 3 or 4 issue span. I was suckered into that and bought all four for the first two or three months but lost interest and dropped them all. I don't recall for certain but I remember something about Gladiator in Thor (I think it was Thor) that I really liked but I dropped it there. Shocker showed up in Iron Man, which was cool for me. I remember Captain America was mediocre (Protocide era I think) and Incredible Hulk just sucked.

Anyhow, I eventually found out that Odin was the death but my little grocery story had already sold out of it before I could pick it up. I grabbed the next issue but my mom cut my comic spending at the time and I didn't get beyond that first issue.

 

[runawayboulder]

I think Bendis completely changed Avengers for good. He re-introduced them into the mainstream universe.

I didn't know that they ever stopped being mainstream.

 

[shiva666]

I didn't know that they ever stopped being mainstream.

He meant movie universe of course

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

i forgot we could do DC tooo on that note...

-the Dark knight returns! looking at it now it's okay i thought it was the baddest &^%$ ever which is why i hate it! i think it was very insturmental in A) Batman can kick any and every one's ass which is straight up malarkey( is Markley like Bologna or something i never got that?)
B) establishment Superman as A tool for the Man! which is more malarkey! Superman doesnt bow to anybody including Zod! I hate that book now!

- Hank Pym slapping the Wasp! that pretty much set up dude for being a wife beating *****ebot ( and i dont mean the T-shirt) forever! hahahaha!

- Emerald dawn! i dont think i need to get into that whole thing but i always thought hal losing everything made sense.That would really make alot of people go over the deep end( ... not to wear a cape mind you) but try to fix time and change things ( trust me baby if i could! this world would be totally different!t: )which is why i probably will never get that power! hehe! i could see dude losing his mind from having his world destroyed and get taken over by a yellow giant mosquito!