Fandoms VS. Creators (over content, and creative directions)

[blackdragon6]

Ok so, there's been a lot of talk about "Toxic Fandoms" and the such. But i want to touch upon the division that tends to come up between disgruntled (or entitled) fandoms of (books, games, tv shows, music, and films) and creators of said properties, in terms of content and ideas. The fans want one thing but the creators have their own ideas on how things should go. If you listen to half the complaint you would think that writers don't know what they're doing anymore (i'm looking at you fans of The Walking Dead, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones lol). There's SO MANY disgruntled fans when it comes to plot points and story direction its almost impossible to discuss the work itself because the discussion is filled with people complaining about how something didn't turn out how they wanted. When it comes to tv shows i give it 2 or 3 seasons before fans start dissenting about direction and plot holes that aren't really plot holes but pet peeves. On the other hand writers don't listen and tend to double down on what they're doing for better or worse. For music it's the same issues, music artists are trying to walk a fine line of pleasing the fans, while simultaneously trying to be creative, and grow with their own art. But can you really do both?


So what's the problem here? are creators/writers out of touch with the fans, or fans just feel like they have better ideas?

 

[KevanG]

I think that there's more to it than there used to be. These days creators of various media can directly interact with fans on a one to one basis if they want or just chat with them in general thanks to live streams.

As an admittedly new content creator, I have a plan for how my story is going to go and anyone who tells me to do it differently is going to irritate me. If I get people giving me tips on how to improve or telling me how to change certain things then I'm okay with that but I make no promises to alter anything.

I imagine its the same with anyone else making their creations public. Getting criticism is expected. Getting people who don't like your work is expected and understandable. People demanding you change your works to fit their vision of the property are written off as *******s.

If you try to satisfy everyone while not staying true to your own vision then you might as well hand it over to someone else.

 

[Sawyer]

I think that there's more to it than there used to be. These days creators of various media can directly interact with fans on a one to one basis if they want or just chat with them in general thanks to live streams.

As an admittedly new content creator, I have a plan for how my story is going to go and anyone who tells me to do it differently is going to irritate me. If I get people giving me tips on how to improve or telling me how to change certain things then I'm okay with that but I make no promises to alter anything.

I imagine its the same with anyone else making their creations public. Getting criticism is expected. Getting people who don't like your work is expected and understandable. People demanding you change your works to fit their vision of the property are written off as *******s.

If you try to satisfy everyone while not staying true to your own vision then you might as well hand it over to someone else.

This exactly.

I've seen certain parts of fandom online using a restaurant analogy here. "If someone gets your food order wrong, you send it back and they fix it." That's not how this works. With a creative endeavor, there's a certain level of gamble you're taking. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. If you don't, that's fine. That's allowed. But for the love of God, just pay your check and leave the ****ing restaurant.

Don't film yourself destroying an action figure of Daisy Ridley the chef that you bought to prove some sort of point.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

Can i play the devil's advocate for a bit?


Sometimes i feel like show runners/producers/studios or whatever hold works hostage. Fans will demand a certain thing, but they will refuse to give it to them. Instead they give fans ultimatums like "If you want this thing, you better support this other thing". To me that's hostage taking lol. People want a Bobba Fett (or whomever) movie, but nah here take this Solo movie instead. I feel that Hollywood shockingly ignores supply and demand. Reminds me of how slow FOX was to make a Deadpool movie.

I also think certain fandoms can become too big and mainstream, causing the writers to try and appeal to too many people. That causes problems too, especially tv shows. I also believe that yeah writers have their own ideas. That's the real reason why a lot of adaptations are so bad lol, the writers think they have better ideas. Hollywood could make money sooooo easily if they just listen to what fans want, but they just don't want to.

Music fans just want the same album over and over again lol

Some of this is a case of "Death of the Author" as well just applied to all mediums.

 

[Pink Ranger]

As Buddy Ryan said: ""If you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting up there with them."

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

It depends on the volume and nature of the complaints. It can often be difficult determining what is the voice of a small, but extremely vocal minority and what are very serious problems with the work. The creator is most definitely not always right. Generally speaking, I find that widespread "big picture" complaints, such as weak villains or that the main protagonist is unsympathetic are things that the creator really should be paying attention to. But complaints about specific plot details and minor things should be largely ignored, especially if they aren't trivial to fix.

As Buddy Ryan said: ""If you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting up there with them."

At the same time I think we all need to remember that Buddy Ryan was a complete failure as head coach (he never won even a single playoff game) and ended up getting fired.

 

[blackdragon6]

But complaints about specific plot details and minor things should be largely ignored, especially if they aren't trivial to fix.

Like i said earlier a lot of complaints come across as glorified pet peeves than any real problem that criples the story in anyway. Even then i think it's just easier for fans to express what they don't like. Usually they don't tell you what it is exactly that they want either. They just know what they DON'T want.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Fans or creators are never right or wrong. Film is experienced on a personal level. Really any story is. Whether it was "right" or "wrong" is up to the individual person.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Fans or creators are never right or wrong. Film is experienced on a personal level. Really any story is. Whether it was "right" or "wrong" is up to the individual person.

This is true on some level, but I don't think we can completely rule out of the role of the collective. Some works are clearly more successful than others. Only a fool would say that the DCEU has come closer to achieving its goals than the MCU, for example. Someone can personally like the DCEU better, but the MCU is clearly more successful from a business and general audience standpoint. Or for an even greater example, replace the DCEU in that example with Universal's Dark Universe.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This is true on some level, but I don't think we can completely rule out of the role of the collective. Some works are clearly more successful than others. Only a fool would say that the DCEU has come closer to achieving its goals than the MCU, for example. Someone can personally like the DCEU better, but the MCU is clearly more successful from a business and general audience standpoint. Or for an even greater example, replace the DCEU in that example with Universal's Dark Universe.

It depends on the framing of the argument. If we're talking about things on a pure success level, then I agree. If we're talking on a quality level, then I don't agree. Success and whether something is profitable or something like that is more tangible. We can debate the reasons the DCEU is failing and the MCU isn't, but an argument like that is based on data. But if the argument is was this a good or bad movie, then that is a personal question and the collective ultimately doesn't matter. For example, more people seem to like TFA than TLJ. I liked TLJ far more. Even if the collective has determined that TLJ is an inferior film, that doesn't sway my opinion of the film itself. Same can be applied for liking less popular works.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

It depends on the framing of the argument. If we're talking about things on a pure success level, then I agree. If we're talking on a quality level, then I don't agree. Success and whether something is profitable or something like that is more tangible. We can debate the reasons the DCEU is failing and the MCU isn't, but an argument like that is based on data. But if the argument is was this a good or bad movie, then that is a personal question and the collective ultimately doesn't matter. For example, more people seem to like TFA than TLJ. I liked TLJ far more. Even if the collective has determined that TLJ is an inferior film, that doesn't sway my opinion of the film itself. Same can be applied for liking less popular works.

I like TLJ much better myself, so I understand your feelings there.

I guess what I'm saying is that if 10% of fans are complaining then they can probably be safely ignored. If it is 90%, it is probably a good idea for the creator to listen to what they are saying.

Also, they should be cordial. Creators saying things like they have a particular vision or story you want to tell is understandable. Creators saying things like the fanbase should shut their mouths and they are too dumb to get it and otherwise picking fights isn't good. Even if the fanbase is hostile, the creator shouldn't lower themselves to their level.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I like TLJ much better myself, so I understand your feelings there.

I guess what I'm saying is that if 10% of fans are complaining then they can probably be safely ignored. If it is 90%, it is probably a good idea for the creator to listen to what they are saying.

Also, they should be cordial. Creators saying things like they have a particular vision or story you want to tell is understandable. Creators saying things like the fanbase should shut their mouths and they are too dumb to get it and otherwise picking fights isn't good. Even if the fanbase is hostile, the creator shouldn't lower themselves to their level.

Well, any creator should be cordial especially in the social media world we live in now. But I will tell ya, what some fans say to them is messed up. Particularly to Rian Johnson recently, so when they get nasty and condescend these people, I kind of get it, LOL!

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Well, any creator should be cordial especially in the social media world we live in now. But I will tell ya, what some fans say to them is messed up. Particularly to Rian Johnson recently, so when they get nasty and condescend these people, I kind of get it, LOL!

Oh I agree that fans can get extremely nasty. Best to ignore rather than engage them when they start with the personal attacks though no matter how much you want to.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Oh I agree that fans can get extremely nasty. Best to ignore rather than engage them when they start with the personal attacks though no matter how much you want to.

Pretty much how I see it. This is why I tend to avoid FB, Twitter, etc. like the plague. It attracts drama that I want no part of.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

A issue i also think causes this is the fact audiences are kinda impatient, and get easily frustrated with nuanced characters. It's probably why episodic shows do better than serialized shows. Of course i think shows like Lost destroys the good will people have for serialized media. lol

 

[Ozbridge]

I guess what I'm saying is that if 10% of fans are complaining then they can probably be safely ignored. If it is 90%, it is probably a good idea for the creator to listen to what they are saying.

No matter whether 1 or 1000 persons say it, constructive criticism is always welcomed by professional creators. But they always have the right to say, “Thank you for your constructive criticism, but I stand by my decisions”, which is exactly what Rian Johnson has done.

This is true on some level, but I don't think we can completely rule out of the role of the collective. Some works are clearly more successful than others. Only a fool would say that the DCEU has come closer to achieving its goals than the MCU, for example. Someone can personally like the DCEU better, but the MCU is clearly more successful from a business and general audience standpoint. Or for an even greater example, replace the DCEU in that example with Universal's Dark Universe.

If a movie (in this case, the DCEU) isn’t enjoyed by fans, that movie isn’t profitable, I think that is enough “punishment” for the studio. There’s no need for fans to think of other ways (especially harassment) to express their opinions.

 

[Frodo]

Well here's the thing with the whole Fandoms vs Creators tension. You've had these tensions going back as far as when Arthur Doyle killed Sherlock Holmes which the vast majority of readers and fans did not like and eventually he had to undo it .

So in that sense , this is nothing new.

What's different now , as opposed to even a generation ago, is the internet, and the ability of the consumers and fans to contact and communicate with creators and each other in ways they couldn't even in the 90s.

At the same time, creators have made themselves much more available to the general public in a way they didn't before the internet. Now fans can have boycotts, petitions , talkback, and real time reactions to the creative choices of the creators.

You add to that the anonymity of the internet ,combined with the ability to reach out and flame someone , you get the "toxicity" in which fans bash creators, each other, and creators flame fans back, and so on, and so forth.

Back in the day, you'd have letter writing or perhaps boo if the creators showed up at a convention. Today its 24/7 , real time, all the time.

At the same time, studios, execs, publishers, do pay attention to it ,and if it effects their bottom line, they will respond.

Like it or not, these creators are part of a business, and they can't afford to ignore dissatisfaction if that dissatisfaction is great enough that its costing them money.

So alot of fans realize if they can, depending on the circumstances, have the ability to effect the bottom line, and that they can force the creators, studios, etc to change course . So they attack more and turn up the pressure more in hope of changing the creators current course.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

If a movie (in this case, the DCEU) isn’t enjoyed by fans, that movie isn’t profitable, I think that is enough “punishment” for the studio. There’s no need for fans to think of other ways (especially harassment) to express their opinions.

I, in no way, endorse anything close to harassment.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I guess what I'm saying is that if 10% of fans are complaining then they can probably be safely ignored. If it is 90%, it is probably a good idea for the creator to listen to what they are saying.

Also, they should be cordial. Creators saying things like they have a particular vision or story you want to tell is understandable. Creators saying things like the fanbase should shut their mouths and they are too dumb to get it and otherwise picking fights isn't good. Even if the fanbase is hostile, the creator shouldn't lower themselves to their level.

Totally agree with both of these points

 

[blackdragon6]

So alot of fans realize if they can, depending on the circumstances, have the ability to effect the bottom line, and that they can force the creators, studios, etc to change course . So they attack more and turn up the pressure more in hope of changing the creators current course.

That's a good point, my only worry though is that writers get browbeaten into keeping the status quo. That won't necessarily help the story line either.

 

[KevanG]

The biggest problem is listening to criticism and trying to improve but not in a way that ruins what you're working on. It's happened way too often where a show or series will suddenly get popular then the people with the money show up and start wrecking everything by adding 'small things' or changing one or two details.

 

[blackdragon6]

It's happened way too often where a show or series will suddenly get popular then the people with the money show up and start wrecking everything by adding 'small things' or changing one or two details.

I personally think this is what happened to The Walking Dead

 

[Frodo]

That's a good point, my only worry though is that writers get browbeaten into keeping the status quo. That won't necessarily help the story line either.

Well ,here's the thing . When writers actually do change the status quo, the vast majority of the time, they do it because the dissatisfaction is effecting the bottom line, which is profit . That can manifest itself in ratings, sales, clicks, or box office.

And that gets into another discussion about Creators vs Profits which is actually the real game in show business. Most of the time, you don't get changes in storylines or the status quo because of purely diehard fan dissatisfaction.

You get changes because the bottom line is hurt, by the dissatisfaction which often goes beyond just the fanbase.

You get reboots, new direction, firings, new writers, etc when the "creators" current vision no longer resonates. Its a business and the creators vision is only as valuable as the amount of profit they can bring in.

Its brutal, and alot of time creators don't like it , but its a business, not a charity. Fans have gotten wiser to this , which is why they attempt to boycott and hurt the bottomline in order to force a change.

Whether its successful or not is another matter, but there is a method to their madness.

 

[KevanG]

I completely understand when a story changes medium and things have to be different for a variety of reasons. Look at the MCU and all the different things that they had to do when they took stories from the comics but lacked the decades of background. Same thing for movies from books or anything else.

The problem is when you get forced to change the basic ideas so much that the underlying idea is made unrecognizable.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

I personally think this is what happened to The Walking Dead

I don't know man, i think TWD problem is that it's own mainstream popularity crippled it. If that makes any sense.