Favorite Live Action Incarnation of Bat Character

[Ponyboy]

Adam West is the only Batman I accept.

If I didn't love you I'd beat you about the head and shoulders with a thick book.

 

[AnneFan]

Adam West is the only Batman I accept.

Really?

I like West, though. Has a great, distinctive voice. Perfect for Bruce Wayne especially. It has that warm, comedic touch to it. And I'm a sucker for dead pan acting. 60s Batman is not my Batman, but I do enjoy it - and it was faithful to the comics of the day.

 

[Snare]

Michelle - Catwoman

 

[Indy Flash]

West Keaton Bale.

 

[BruceWanner]

Batman: Michael Keaton

Bruce Wayne: Val Kilmer

Alfred: Michael Gough

Commissioner Gordon: Gary Oldman

The Joker: Heath Ledger

The Penguin: Burgess Meredith

The Riddler: Frank Gorshin

 

[TX85]

Batman: Michael Keaton

Bruce Wayne: Val Kilmer

Alfred: Michael Gough

Commissioner Gordon: Gary Oldman

The Joker: Heath Ledger

The Penguin: Burgess Meredith

The Riddler: Frank Gorshin

Agreed 100%!

 

[Cain]

Batman: Michael Keaton
Bruce Wayne: Adam West/Val Kilmer
Robin: Burt Ward
Alfred: Michael Gough
Gordon: Gary Oldman
Batgirl: Yvonne Craig
The Joker: Nicholson/Romero/Ledger
Catwoman: Newmar/Pfeiffer/Merriweather
The Riddler: Frank Gorshin
The Penguin: Burgess Meredith
Two-Face: Aaron Eckhart
Mr. Freeze: George Sanders

 

[GothamAlleys]

It not even about Kilmer being boring that bothered me the most. I actually disagree that he copied things from previous movies. He didnt. He actually didnt do anything. All he did throughout entire movie was looking startled and moping around on Valium. Its actually what he and Schumacher DID with the character that bothered me most. Keaton;s Batman was a mystery and a truly insane individual. Take his spontaneous smiles in sick situations like when blowing up a guy or right before dissapearing. We also get to see his Batman getting into it and very pissed of

NONE of that with Kilmer. Youd never see Kilmer's Batman being really angry, evil or frustrated. He is completely stoic all the time and seems like hes overdoing on Valium. he never does any of those different expression. he never looses temper. Even in the climax he is as calm as calm can be and speaking softly and half asleep. He either looks like hes half a sleep or startled

Also, I loved Keaton/Burton approach of Batman being like Darcula, a loner confined to his castle, a very seclusive person and a mystery. And Kilmer/Schumacher destroys all that making Wayne walk around in galas and all those public places. They completely redid the character.

Bale/Nolan did their "public" version of the Wayne character much better and it was a new approach from scratch. It wasnt a sudden shift as in Forever, it was being developed from the beginning.

Not to mention such idiotic things as Batman landing like a superhero with floating cape to-the-rescue type in the middle of the crowd and talking to police in all those colorful lights. Or the godawful one liners.

Schumacher's/Kilmer's approach is one of the main reasons why I cant stand Schumachers Batman movies

 

[CConn]

Batman: Michael Keaton
Bruce: Christian Bale
Alfred: Mike Gough
The Joker: Heath Ledger
Catwoman: I'm betting Hathaway.
Two-Face: Eckhardt
Penguin: Danny
Robin: O'Donnell. Outside of being 10 years too old and given bad dialogue, I liked him.

 

[Proximo]

Bruce Wayne: Michael Keaton & Val Kilmer
Robin: Chris O'Donnell
Alfred: Michael Gough
Commissioner Gordon: Pat Hingle
The Joker: Jack Nicholson
Catwoman: Michelle Pfeiffer
The Riddler: Jim Carrey

 

[Brain Damage]

It not even about Kilmer being boring that bothered me the most. I actually disagree that he copied things from previous movies. He didnt. He actually didnt do anything. All he did throughout entire movie was looking startled and moping around on Valium. Its actually what he and Schumacher DID with the character that bothered me most. Keaton;s Batman was a mystery and a truly insane individual. Take his spontaneous smiles in sick situations like when blowing up a guy or right before dissapearing. We also get to see his Batman getting into it and very pissed of

NONE of that with Kilmer. Youd never see Kilmer's Batman being really angry, evil or frustrated. He is completely stoic all the time and seems like hes overdoing on Valium. he never does any of those different expression. he never looses temper. Even in the climax he is as calm as calm can be and speaking softly and half asleep. He either looks like hes half a sleep or startled

Also, I loved Keaton/Burton approach of Batman being like Darcula, a loner confined to his castle, a very seclusive person and a mystery. And Kilmer/Schumacher destroys all that making Wayne walk around in galas and all those public places. They completely redid the character.

Bale/Nolan did their "public" version of the Wayne character much better and it was a new approach from scratch. It wasnt a sudden shift as in Forever, it was being developed from the beginning.

Not to mention such idiotic things as Batman landing like a superhero with floating cape to-the-rescue type in the middle of the crowd and talking to police in all those colorful lights. Or the godawful one liners.

Schumacher's/Kilmer's approach is one of the main reasons why I cant stand Schumachers Batman movies

There are many things wrong with Batman Forever, but I really do appreciate it for the movie it is, and part of that for me has always been Kilmer. He doesn't play a Batman like Keaton does, who has been around for a couple of years, he plays a slightly more matured and experienced Dark Knight. And i don't know if you've ever happened to pick up a Batman comic from the last thirty five or so years, but Batman has always been a character of extreme self control, specifically later on in his career. One of the things I love most about the character is his nature of never saying much or looking like he has much of an expression. I agree, sometimes he has to get angry and truly become a beast, this is something Nolan does well, but it just seems strange to me that you choose to critique this particular aspect of Kilmer's performance, as I felt it was one of the most distinguish-ably Batman characteristics.

 

[Macphisto]

'Why oh why didn't I read the script?'

 

[GothamAlleys]

And i don't know if you've ever happened to pick up a Batman comic from the last thirty five or so years, but Batman has always been a character of extreme self control, specifically later on in his career.

That was totally uncalled for. And yes, I happened to pick up just about every single Batman comic sans Silver Age era from years 39-99 and no, the 80s/90s Batman didnt have self control and Bale was the one who nailed the character. Batman wasnt a valium packed startled, half asleep character

Ive been a hardcore fan since 88 and Ive never seen Batman as CONSTANTLY a clam, expressionless, 100% self reserved half asleep character who never has any kind of expressions or feelings. Bale mirrors Modern Age Batman I came to know. Keaton mirrors the very eraliest depiction. West mirrors Silver Age. Kilmer mirrors someone on Valium overdose.

 

[Brain Damage]

That was totally uncalled for. And yes, I happened to pick up just about every single Batman comic sans Silver Age era from years 39-99 and no, the 80s/90s Batman didnt have self control and Bale was the one who nailed the character. Batman wasnt a valium packed startled, half asleep character

Ive been a hardcore fan since 88 and Ive never seen Batman as CONSTANTLY a clam, expressionless, 100% self reserved half asleep character who never has any kind of expressions or feelings. Bale mirrors Modern Age Batman I came to know. Keaton mirrors the very eraliest depiction. West mirrors Silver Age. Kilmer mirrors someone on Valium overdose.

Of course, when extremely angry and pissed off Batman releases his wild, beast like side, read my post again, I mention this. But what is also really cool about Batman (and lots of other badasses in media history who have acted like this) is that he doesn't need to yell and scream to get his point across all the time. Maybe this comes off better in the animated series because of the lack of narration, but some of his coolest moments involve him looking like a statue and not saying much at all. I don't have any specific scene or comic panel in mind, but I'm sure you can think of at least a few instances of this. The problem isn't with Kilmer, it's with the script, at no point in the script is Batman incredibly angry or violent, he is very much the one note Batman that I talked about above. Now, arguably, this is just bad screenwriting, and yes, I wish they had shown more variety to the character, but I don't think it's fair to blame Kilmer for that. I think he did a very good job with what he had to work with, even though he didn't have that much.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Sure,Kilmers only part of the blame. The one most responsible is Schumacher who wanted Batman to be "glamorous" and "accessible"

 

[Proximo]

NONE of that with Kilmer. Youd never see Kilmer's Batman being really angry, evil or frustrated. He is completely stoic all the time and seems like hes overdoing on Valium. he never does any of those different expression. he never looses temper. Even in the climax he is as calm as calm can be and speaking softly and half asleep. He either looks like hes half a sleep or startled

I actually like Kilmer’s approach (or lack of?), he comes of as a more mature Batman than Keaton or Bale. He is also considering to stop being Batman throughout the film so he doesn’t have the same passion as in his early years. He talks less with the villain’s (except for a few remarks like Keaton and Bale did too when necessary), he goes right into business without fear or hesitation. I love the heroic finale when he save both Chase and Robin. Spider-Man pretty much copy that finale and I got the same heroic ("out of this world") feeling when I saw that as well.

Not to mention such idiotic things as Batman landing like a superhero with floating cape to-the-rescue type in the middle of the crowd and talking to police in all those colorful lights. Or the godawful one liners.

Schumacher's/Kilmer's approach is one of the main reasons why I cant stand Schumachers Batman movies

I disagree, even with all the colorful lights the overall setting is dark. It is far less idiotic than (TDK for example) where he walk out to the center of the floor in a very bright penthouse infront of a lot of people to do a ridiculously slow fight scene with the usual elbow punches that they are waiting to get hit by. I wonder why no one in the crowd said anything or made any type of sound, I mean - Batman must have been standing there for a while before he answer The Joker and initiate the fight. Did Batman put a finger over his mouth to silently signal the crowd to stay quiet so he could sneak up to The Joker at the right moment?

Batman also walked into a bank to talk to Gordon in TDK infront of other police officers as well as interrogate The Joker at the police station in a very bright room with everyone watching. The superhero landing (with obvious wirework) and the cape moving in the wind can be seen in all the Batman films and I think it's really well done in Batman Forever, even on the CGI Batman.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I actually like Kilmer’s approach (or lack of?), he comes of as a more mature Batman than Keaton or Bale.

I see it as a step back. It was already dealt with in the first movie and the revenge was completed. He moved on in Returns, the whole sudden depression and moping around as if it just happened the day before was unnecessary

He is also considering to stop being Batman throughout the film so he doesn’t have the same passion as in his early years.

He also considered it in both Returns and TDK - in both movies where the parents thing was already dealt with and guilty were killed

He talks less with the villain’s (except for a few remarks like Keaton and Bale did too when necessary), he goes right into business without fear or hesitation.

I disagree. Hes very talkative with both Face and Riddler at the end

I love the heroic finale when he save both Chase and Robin. Spider-Man pretty much copy that finale and I got the same heroic ("out of this world") feeling when I saw that as well.

And this is exactly what I dont like. Batman and his stories arent SpiderMan stories. What makes Batman different from all other superheroes is that his stories are dark and he isnt a cape flowing superhero

I disagree, even with all the colorful lights the overall setting is dark.

There are police lights all over the place and the city looks like Hong Kong. Batman lands outside in front of the crowd and stands there talking

It is far less idiotic than (TDK for example) where he walk out to the center of the floor in a very bright penthouse infront of a lot of people to do a ridiculously slow fight scene with the usual elbow punches that they are waiting to get hit by. I wonder why no one in the crowd said anything or made any type of sound, I mean - Batman must have been standing there for a while before he answer The Joker and initiate the fight. Did Batman put a finger over his mouth to silently signal the crowd to stay quiet so he could sneak up to The Joker at the right moment?

Movie magic.

Batman also walked into a bank to talk to Gordon in TDK infront of other police officers as well as interrogate The Joker at the police station in a very bright room with everyone watching.

Thats very different tho. Its an intimate setting. Its empty bank and interrogation room, its not the same as coming from the sky like Superman or SpiderMan and standing on TimesSquare street in front of the crowd and reporters

The superhero landing (with obvious wirework) and the cape moving in the wind can be seen in all the Batman films

Can be seen but with him landing like Bat or vampire, not like cliche caped suyperhero

 

[Brain Damage]

I see it as a step back. It was already dealt with in the first movie and the revenge was completed. He moved on in Returns, the whole sudden depression and moping around as if it just happened the day before was unnecessary

Moved on? Batman is not a character who moves on. If he did, he wouldn't be Batman. His whole life revolves around one single traumatic event that he can't get over, and his whole purpose for existence is to prevent anyone else from going through the same thing. In essence, by choosing not to get over his parent's death, he is sacrificing any chance of a normal life he might have. And he's not depressed and moping around. He is brooding. And Batman broods. Pretty much every live action Batman with the exception of Clooney and West has brooded.

He also considered it in both Returns and TDK - in both movies where the parents thing was already dealt with and guilty were killed

Considering that TDK came out 13 years after Forever, I don't see the relevance. As for Returns, I don't think he ever truly considered it. If memory serves, anything even close to this was only brought up in one scene, and that was when he was trying to get Selina to stop, and all he said to her was "Let's just take him to the police and go home, together". That doesn't imply he wants to give up Batman. If anything, the only reason he wants to go home with Selina is because she'll be able to accept Batman, unlike Vale, he won't have to ever give that up for her.

I disagree. Hes very talkative with both Face and Riddler at the end

One scene? In the entire film. And he said possibly two words to Two-Face (heheh), and that was only to get him to flip his coin. As for the Riddler, nearly the same deal, he told him the riddle only as a means to throw off his guard for a second, and also because in a movie where the main villain is the RIDDLER, you'd expect Batman to "match wits" with him at least once. Is it something I'd want Bale's Batman to do? No. But these are entirely different universes.

And this is exactly what I dont like. Batman and his stories arent SpiderMan stories. What makes Batman different from all other superheroes is that his stories are dark and he isnt a cape flowing superhero

So he should have just saved one of them and then be angsty because he couldn't save the other because that would be the dark way to tell his story? I'm sorry but just no. Batman is a hero. He is just as heroic as Spider-Man or anybody else, if not more so because he doesn't have the abilities they have. To say that Batman shouldn't ever save the day because his world is too dark for that is missing the point entirely. Batman is a dark hero in a dark world who attempts to shine some light on it, and sometimes, he succeeds. That's called being a hero.

There are police lights all over the place and the city looks like Hong Kong. Batman lands outside in front of the crowd and stands there talking

I agree that this isn't as effective as Bats and Gordon on a rooftop talking, but then again the old franchise never had any of that. Now that I think of it the only scene on top of GCPD's roof is the one in Forever where Chase turns on the signal. This is primarily because Jim Gordon was never set up as a strong character in these movies, and it is definitely established, ever since the ending of the first movie, that Batman is definitely believed to be real by the public, and beyond that, a vigilant guardian to them all. Having said that, it doesn't seem far fetched at all for Batman to show up to a MAJOR DEVELOPING crime scene despite there being a lot of witnesses. Further than that, he shows up, finds out what he needs to know and leaves, while Chase is asking him a question no less. THAT is very Batman-like behavior.

Movie magic.

This is just stupid. I adore TDK and think it's one of the finest movies of this decade, superhero or not, and things like this usually don't bother me because it doesn't actually take away from the plot. But if we're going to nitpick every detail about these movies, which is what we're doing, then answering with "movie magic" is simply not good enough. It was a bit of a dumb moment in the movie that didn't really make much sense, but again, it's not something that really should bother anybody because again, things like these are nitpicks and don't actually add or deduct from the story. Having said that, the scene where Batman breaks through the glass roof and proceeds to kick some ass is one of the best in the movie, and one of the best "Batman Moments" in any of the films.

Thats very different tho. Its an intimate setting. Its empty bank and interrogation room, its not the same as coming from the sky like Superman or SpiderMan and standing on TimesSquare street in front of the crowd and reporters

The big difference between the banks in TDK and Forever are that in TDK Bats shows up after the fact, in Forever, he shows up to a developing crime scene. Meaning media, crowds, police, etc. The whole neon look of Schumacher's Gotham didn't really work for me, but what, should Batman simply not show up because the billboards are too bright?

Can be seen but with him landing like Bat or vampire, not like cliche caped suyperhero

How exactly does a bat or a vampire land? I imagine not exactly the same way as a man in a suit and a cape would. This argument is really idiotic and it feels to me like at this point you're just pointing to anything in the movie as a flaw because you simply don't like the overall product. What exactly did he do that made him look like a "cliche caped superhero"? I don't recall any moments of Batman landing proudly on the street and heroically putting his hands on his sides while his cape flows..... heroically? in the wind.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Moved on? Batman is not a character who moves on. If he did, he wouldn't be Batman.

And yet he did once the killer was avenged/killed. It happened in comics, once in 50s, once in 80s -

and live action movie. He killed Joker and in Returns doesnt even mention his parents. He is STILL traumatic and affected by it (never said otherwise), but he moved on to another phase. Same in TDK - never mentions his parents, never stops to mourn about them. Its all about his life and companionship, as was Returns - the second film as well. Bale himself says he moved on from his parents death in TDK. Despite that, hes still affected and still the same Batman

And he's not depressed and moping around. He is brooding. And Batman broods. Pretty much every live action Batman with the exception of Clooney and West has brooded.

Not during every single shot in the movie. All Kilmer does is being sad and depressed. He speaks so softly and so low hes barely audible. As I already said, he seems like he overdosed on Valium. Even when hes Batman, and thats my biggest issue. We never get to see any anger from him, any fire in his eyes. Just moping around like a kid who couldnt go out play with his friends

Considering that TDK came out 13 years after Forever, I don't see the relevance. As for Returns, I don't think he ever truly considered it. If memory serves, anything even close to this was only brought up in one scene, and that was when he was trying to get Selina to stop, and all he said to her was "Let's just take him to the police and go home, together". That doesn't imply he wants to give up Batman. If anything, the only reason he wants to go home with Selina is because she'll be able to accept Batman, unlike Vale, he won't have to ever give that up for her.

The ripping off the mask instead of taking it off was symbolic, showing hes willing to threw it all away for his bride of Frankenstein. He even said they can go home together and the implication was that he was willing to lead a life with Selina since she was his tortured soulmate/outsider like him

One scene? In the entire film. And he said possibly two words to Two-Face (heheh), and that was only to get him to flip his coin. As for the Riddler, nearly the same deal, he told him the riddle only as a means to throw off his guard for a second, and also because in a movie where the main villain is the RIDDLER, you'd expect Batman to "match wits" with him at least once.

Any chance he had he spoke to the villains

Is it something I'd want Bale's Batman to do? No. But these are entirely different universes.

And thats my biggest gripe. If Schumachers were separate entity from Burton's I just wouldnt care for them, I wouldnt hate them. But since they changed everything so radically and made him a completely different character than keatons I do have a big issue with how the Batman and his world is portrayed

So he should have just saved one of them and then be angsty because he couldn't save the other because that would be the dark way to tell his story? I'm sorry but just no.

I never said so. I said there shoul;d be some rage or emotions involved. At least make him do an angry face instead of being a Valium Man all the time even when hes about to loose everyone

Batman is a hero. He is just as heroic as Spider-Man or anybody else, if not more so because he doesn't have the abilities they have.

Batmans not a hero like others, thats what makes the character so special. He let Ras die in Begins, got very personal in TDK picking girl over important DA and tried to kill Joker for the murder of his parents. hes a man driven by obsession and anger, hes not Yoda or SpiderMan

To say that Batman shouldn't ever save the day because his world is too dark for that is missing the point entirely. Batman is a dark hero in a dark world who attempts to shine some light on it, and sometimes, he succeeds. That's called being a hero.

Never said he shouldnt save the day. Its THE WAY he saves the day. It can be done in a very dark way like in Batman or TDK, not like typical flowing cape superhero


I agree that this isn't as effective as Bats and Gordon on a rooftop talking, but then again the old franchise never had any of that. Now that I think of it the only scene on top of GCPD's roof is the one in Forever where Chase turns on the signal. This is primarily because Jim Gordon was never set up as a strong character in these movies, and it is definitely established, ever since the ending of the first movie, that Batman is definitely believed to be real by the public, and beyond that, a vigilant guardian to them all.

And I prefered Gordon to be a side character who has no contact with batman in the old franchise, just like I prefer him to have a good one on one relationship with Gordon in Nolans movies. I dislike however Batman standing with Gordon in the middle of the crowd filled with reporters or talking to him on the vidcam

Having said that, it doesn't seem far fetched at all for Batman to show up to a MAJOR DEVELOPING crime scene despite there being a lot of witnesses. Further than that, he shows up, finds out what he needs to know and leaves, while Chase is asking him a question no less. THAT is very Batman-like behavior.

Sometimes what works in the comics doesnt work in a movie. I disliked Batman talking to Gordon in the middle of HongKong and crowd and descending on the crowd like Superman

This is just stupid. I adore TDK and think it's one of the finest movies of this decade, superhero or not, and things like this usually don't bother me because it doesn't actually take away from the plot. But if we're going to nitpick every detail about these movies, which is what we're doing, then answering with "movie magic" is simply not good enough. It was a bit of a dumb moment in the movie that didn't really make much sense, but again, it's not something that really should bother anybody because again, things like these are nitpicks and don't actually add or deduct from the story. Having said that, the scene where Batman breaks through the glass roof and proceeds to kick some ass is one of the best in the movie, and one of the best "Batman Moments" in any of the films.

Im not nitpicking. Theres plenty plotholes and movie magic moments in all the movies. What Im criticizing is approach and the way the story went with Schumachers movies

The big difference between the banks in TDK and Forever are that in TDK Bats shows up after the fact, in Forever, he shows up to a developing crime scene. Meaning media, crowds, police, etc. The whole neon look of Schumacher's Gotham didn't really work for me, but what, should Batman simply not show up because the billboards are too bright?

No. the simple answer is dont write a scene like this. Dont show Batman getting undressed, dont show him putting the eye makeup on. Dont show him in situations that would take away from the dark and shadowy nature of the character. Simply, write a scene inside a bank with Gordon like in TDK, not in a Barbie City and the cliche crowd going "look, its Batman!"

How exactly does a bat or a vampire land? I imagine not exactly the same way as a man in a suit and a cape would. This argument is really idiotic and it feels to me like at this point you're just pointing to anything in the movie as a flaw because you simply don't like the overall product. What exactly did he do that made him look like a "cliche caped superhero"? I don't recall any moments of Batman landing proudly on the street and heroically putting his hands on his sides while his cape flows..... heroically? in the wind.

Ok, to make it easier. In Batman, he slowly descends in the mist with wings spread, like a vampire.

In Begins hes hanging upside down covered by his cape. Lands in Arkham with wings spread, forming a Bat shape like Keaton did in 89, not to mention surrounded by bats. Bale also glides with spread wings LIKE A BAT in Begins, like Keaton in Returns also surrounded by bats. Now THIS is how that character should land, not like flowing cape hero holding rope

Valium Kilmer descened on a rope with a flowing cape to a gasping crowd and bright colors around. Makes me cringe

 

[Proximo]

I see it as a step back. It was already dealt with in the first movie and the revenge was completed. He moved on in Returns, the whole sudden depression and moping around as if it just happened the day before was unnecessary

Did he move on in Returns? Maybe a little bit because he got his revenge in the first one. It was not a sudden depression, he had been haunted by the traumatic events in the form of visions of suppressed memory such as seeing his parents being shot again, his parent's funeral, seeing Thomas Wayne’s journal with blank pages that he will never write on. The same journal he had in his arms when he fell into the batcave after the funeral.

He had suffered from these visions for a while, and when he met Dr. Chase, she was able to get him to open up about them which made him remember more details about them. If you have seen one of the deleted scenes you should know that his fathers journal were an important part to the complete story. He lost his memory after being shot by Two-Face and hitting his head on the stairs, Alfred brings him to a section of the batcave where he recovers his memory thanks to the Thomas Wayne journal (that was still there) and the huge Bat that Bruce had seen when he was a boy. The huge bat is just a symbol though, it’s in the size that he interpret it as a boy (the same vision he want the criminals to see him as when he is Batman), in reality it’s a regular sized bat.

All of this inspires him to become Batman again, it gives him new energy, it’s a fresh start. He take what he have and go on to take out The Riddler and Two-Face as well as saving Chase. By the end of the film he have accepted his destiny to be Batman FOREVER. ”Poor Edward, I had to save them both. You see, I am both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. Now, Because I choose to be.”

I disagree. Hes very talkative with both Face and Riddler at the end

Not really, he say what he has to just like Keaton did as Batman, very few words. Bale’s Batman is far worse, it feels like he is talking 10 minutes nonstop with everyone.

There are police lights all over the place and the city looks like Hong Kong. Batman lands outside in front of the crowd and stands there talking

Yes, because there are police cars all over the place, because they are outside a bank where Two-Face are robbing the bank (making a trap for Batman) and holding a guard as hostage. I doubt turning the lights off is the first thing on their mind. As for looking like Hong Kong, maybe that part of the city is the Chinatown of Gotham?

Thats very different tho. Its an intimate setting. Its empty bank and interrogation room, its not the same as coming from the sky like Superman or SpiderMan and standing on TimesSquare street in front of the crowd and reporters

True, pretty intimate setting. Here we have a big crowd of people in a colorful setting and colorful lights but the overall tone is still dark and you can hardly get a good look at Batman because he is constantly moving (quick entrance) and fighting large thugs with machine guns.

While here, we have a big crowd in what looks like a modern day penthouse party going wrong because a bunch of people playing dress up crash the party and start to fight under a lighting that truly show off Batman’s motocross armor in detail.

Can be seen but with him landing like Bat or vampire, not like cliche caped suyperhero

Everyone in the city know he is a man dressing up as a bat, it’s the third movie. They don’t think he is a large bat or a bat-vampire like they did in Batman or Batman Begins. He doesn’t have to act that way anymore, people won’t be scared by him as they first were. In the TDK Batman goes to a rave party and does everything he can to intimidate a crime lord, and he fail doing so compared to what he did in Batman Begins to the corrupt cop.

hes a man driven by obsession and anger, hes not Yoda or SpiderMan

Uncle Ben’s death is the reason Peter ended up becoming Spider-Man, it’s what drives him. Very much the same as what drives Bruce being Batman.

 

[The Joker]

Not really, he say what he has to just like Keaton did as Batman, very few words. Bale’s Batman is far worse, it feels like he is talking 10 minutes nonstop with everyone.

No way. I like Kilmer's Batman, but he did a lot of unnecessary nattering. He even went so far as repeat back to the Riddler the evil deeds he was doing. "You've been sucking Gotham's brain waves and now you've devised a way to read mens minds".

I think Riddler is well aware of that, Batman lol.

Yes, because there are police cars all over the place, because they are outside a bank where Two-Face are robbing the bank (making a trap for Batman) and holding a guard as hostage. I doubt turning the lights off is the first thing on their mind. As for looking like Hong Kong, maybe that part of the city is the Chinatown of Gotham?

That's not the point he's making. Batman didn't have to go down there just to meet Chase Meridian and confirm with Gordon that Two Face is the one in there. He could have just gone straight into the bank like he did to take on Two Face.

The scene was just done that way so Batman can meet Chase. That's all.

True, pretty intimate setting. Here we have a big crowd of people in a colorful setting and colorful lights but the overall tone is still dark and you can hardly get a good look at Batman because he is constantly moving (quick entrance) and fighting large thugs with machine guns.

Are you joking? Batman stops motionless several times during that fight. Two instances spring to mind, like when that idiot thug who does all these fancy moves in front of Batman and then Batman just stands there watching him and then knocks him out with a kick and the people standing around them watching all cheer.

Second is when he pauses with Chase and gets a kiss off her after he saves her.

While here, we have a big crowd in what looks like a modern day penthouse party going wrong because a bunch of people playing dress up crash the party and start to fight under a lighting that truly show off Batman’s motocross armor in detail.

Batman going into a well lit party room that Joker has crashed to take him on? Where did they get a crazy idea like that:

I don't EVER want to see a version of Batman who would ignore the Joker and his men crashing a room full of people just because the room is well lit lol.

Everyone in the city know he is a man dressing up as a bat, it’s the third movie. They don’t think he is a large bat or a bat-vampire like they did in Batman or Batman Begins. He doesn’t have to act that way anymore, people won’t be scared by him as they first were. In the TDK Batman goes to a rave party and does everything he can to intimidate a crime lord, and he fail doing so compared to what he did in Batman Begins to the corrupt cop.

He didn't fail to intimidate him. He broke Maroni's ankles and Maroni told him everything he knew about the Joker's whereabouts, which was nothing. What he did say was the underworld won't sell out Joker to Batman because they're more scared of Joker than Batman because Joker has no rules while Batman does.

Uncle Ben’s death is the reason Peter ended up becoming Spider-Man, it’s what drives him. Very much the same as what drives Bruce being Batman.

Technically Peter was already Spider-Man when Uncle Ben died. He was just using it as a way to make money instead of fighting crime.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Did he move on in Returns? Maybe a little bit because he got his revenge in the first one.

Right, we definitely agree here. Same in Begins where he closed the case so to speak by making a difference in Gotham and getting rid of the guy and group who caused his parents death

It was not a sudden depression, he had been haunted by the traumatic events in the form of visions of suppressed memory such as seeing his parents being shot again, his parent's funeral, seeing Thomas Wayne’s journal with blank pages that he will never write on. The same journal he had in his arms when he fell into the batcave after the funeral.

But he was this sad, depressed, expressionless guy even before the memory of the journal came to his mind

He had suffered from these visions for a while, and when he met Dr. Chase, she was able to get him to open up about them which made him remember more details about them.

This is another thing I dont get. Chase was just a weird hottie who was in love with Batman like teenage girls with Justin Beaber. I dont know how she got his interest other than seductive looks and behavior. Vale was just a girl for him, he was dismissive of her and she had to chase after him when he didnt have much interest and had to even be pelted by Alfred to answer her calls. Catwoman was a fellow tarnished soul, a bride of Frankenstein. Rachel was someone who knew and understood Bruce from his childhood. But Chase? Just another cliche "hot blonde" who needs saving and yet he was so into her

”Poor Edward, I had to save them both. You see, I am both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. Now, Because I choose to be.”

Thats another thing I dislike about that movie. For me Bruce was always just a shell, just a mask for Batman. He was Batman and Wayne was just a name. As in Burton and Nolan's movies

Bale’s Batman is far worse, it feels like he is talking 10 minutes nonstop with everyone.

To be fair the comic Batman is very talkative too for the most part. Then theres also a fact that Bales approach is very different, hes very much driven by anger and more identifiable. Keaton was a good mix of both silent approach but also expressing anger physically

Yes, because there are police cars all over the place, because they are outside a bank where Two-Face are robbing the bank (making a trap for Batman) and holding a guard as hostage. I doubt turning the lights off is the first thing on their mind.

And as I said, the scene could be written inside a bank with just Gordon and Batman like in TDK

As for looking like Hong Kong, maybe that part of the city is the Chinatown of Gotham?

The problem is it looked like that at night all the time. Even when Face was trying to bazooka the batmobile the streets were lit red

True, pretty intimate setting. Here we have a big crowd of people in a colorful setting and colorful lights but the overall tone is still dark and you can hardly get a good look at Batman because he is constantly moving (quick entrance) and fighting large thugs with machine guns.

While here, we have a big crowd in what looks like a modern day penthouse party going wrong because a bunch of people playing dress up crash the party and start to fight under a lighting that truly show off Batman’s motocross armor in detail.

But it was cleverly done with quick cuts and blurred motion. We didnt even see much of Batman

Everyone in the city know he is a man dressing up as a bat, it’s the third movie. They don’t think he is a large bat or a bat-vampire like they did in Batman or Batman Begins. He doesn’t have to act that way anymore, people won’t be scared by him as they first were.

So why is he still wearing the batsuit? People know hes not a giant bat but hes still a creature of the dark, hes still the dark knight. He still scares criminals even with his presence. Bats are dark and evil looking, Batman should be too, not be a Superman type with the Superman pose

and flowing cape, descending on the gasping crowd

Uncle Ben’s death is the reason Peter ended up becoming Spider-Man, it’s what drives him. Very much the same as what drives Bruce being Batman.

As to oppose to Bruce, Peter was already raised with values and a much older kid, and he did not witness his parents being gunned down in front of him at the age of 9 and then being raised alone

 

[Proximo]

I think I got my point across. It is very easy to look down on the older films. But if you nitpick everything in Nolan's Batman as well then there are many idiotic things in them too.

There are so much stuff I hate with Nolans "Batman" films, I don't really have the energy nor interest in pointing them out because I don't care much for them, I only saw them a few times. They are great movies, but not as "Batman" movies. I am really looking forward to what they will do on the next reboot.

 

[Proximo]

No way. I like Kilmer's Batman, but he did a lot of unnecessary nattering. He even went so far as repeat back to the Riddler the evil deeds he was doing. "You've been sucking Gotham's brain waves and now you've devised a way to read mens minds".

I think Riddler is well aware of that, Batman lol.

LOL yeah, there are many odd moments like that I agree. While the reasons are more real and actually make sense, Bale repeat what people have told him as well both as Bruce and Batman. I hated that.

That's not the point he's making. Batman didn't have to go down there just to meet Chase Meridian and confirm with Gordon that Two Face is the one in there. He could have just gone straight into the bank like he did to take on Two Face. The scene was just done that way so Batman can meet Chase. That's all.

Yes, but that's not the point I was making. I'm just saying that even with all the neon lights I think the overall lighting around Batman and everyone else is dark as can be seen on the wide shot of that scene.

Are you joking? Batman stops motionless several times during that fight. Two instances spring to mind, like when that idiot thug who does all these fancy moves in front of Batman and then Batman just stands there watching him and then knocks him out with a kick and the people standing around them watching all cheer. Second is when he pauses with Chase and gets a kiss off her after he saves her.

Again, that was not the point I was making. I am well aware about that, Bale do similar things as well. I am just saying that the overall look of the scene is darker than that of the penthouse scene in TDK. There are a lot of neon lights and crap in Batman Forever, but I still think the overall look of the film is darker than what most people make it out to be.

Batman going into a well lit party room that Joker has crashed to take him on? Where did they get a crazy idea like that:

Again, that is not what we were talking about. We were talking about Batman being in public infront of a crowd and lighting of the scene.

I don't EVER want to see a version of Batman who would ignore the Joker and his men crashing a room full of people just because the room is well lit lol.

Yet, he did not go back into the penthouse after crashing down on the car with Rachel to check if everyone was ok or if the Joker was still there. It’s easy to assume he did go back, or that the Joker ran away but the way it was forgotten or left out in the film was sloppy.

He didn't fail to intimidate him. He broke Maroni's ankles and Maroni told him everything he knew about the Joker's whereabouts, which was nothing. What he did say was the underworld won't sell out Joker to Batman because they're more scared of Joker than Batman because Joker has no rules while Batman does.

He did fail, Maroni was not afraid of him. Maroni told him everything after he fell and broke his ankles. He are clearly in a lot of pain, he tells everything, not because he is afraid. That’s the way I interpret it.

Technically Peter was already Spider-Man when Uncle Ben died. He was just using it as a way to make money instead of fighting crime.

Again, that was not the point I was making. I am just saying (in response to what I quoted) that they are both motivated by death, obsession and anger (etc) to fight crime.

 

[Proximo]

But he was this sad, depressed, expressionless guy even before the memory of the journal came to his mind

It may just be me, but I always assumed it had been going on for some time before it was shown to us.

This is another thing I dont get. Chase was just a weird hottie who was in love with Batman like teenage girls with Justin Beaber. I dont know how she got his interest other than seductive looks and behavior. Vale was just a girl for him, he was dismissive of her and she had to chase after him when he didnt have much interest and had to even be pelted by Alfred to answer her calls. Catwoman was a fellow tarnished soul, a bride of Frankenstein. Rachel was someone who knew and understood Bruce from his childhood. But Chase? Just another cliche "hot blonde" who needs saving and yet he was so into her

I agree, but the whole point of her character are to help Bruce come to terms with his visions and showing that he still have a chance of having a normal life even after what happened in the first two films.

Thats another thing I dislike about that movie. For me Bruce was always just a shell, just a mask for Batman. He was Batman and Wayne was just a name. As in Burton and Nolan's movies

Yeah, I dislike that too. For me, the Bruce that Alfred know is Batman (but without the suit). The Bruce that the public know is the shell. But it’s hard to tell the difference with the way Val did it. Bale and Keaton got the differen’t sides of Bruce down much better.

To be fair the comic Batman is very talkative too for the most part. Then theres also a fact that Bales approach is very different, hes very much driven by anger and more identifiable. Keaton was a good mix of both silent approach but also expressing anger physically

Definitely.

And as I said, the scene could be written inside a bank with just Gordon and Batman like in TDK

Yeah, lots of things could have been done different, otherwise we wouldn’t be talking about it now.

The problem is it looked like that at night all the time. Even when Face was trying to bazooka the batmobile the streets were lit red

Yeah it’s everywhere. All I’m saying is that I think the tone of the film is darker than what most people make it out to be.

But it was cleverly done with quick cuts and blurred motion. We didnt even see much of Batman

Quick cuts and blurred motion, yes, for us. But the crowd present at the party would see him pretty clear, same goes for the scene in Forever. I’m just saying that I think the Forever scene is done better and it’s (overall) darker even with all the neon lights.

So why is he still wearing the batsuit? People know hes not a giant bat but hes still a creature of the dark, hes still the dark knight. He still scares criminals even with his presence. Bats are dark and evil looking, Batman should be too, not be a Superman type with the Superman pose and flowing cape, descending on the gasping crowd

People are still scared of him in Forever. The low life criminals that Grayson were fighting scattered when Batman appeared.

As to oppose to Bruce, Peter was already raised with values and a much older kid, and he did not witness his parents being gunned down in front of him at the age of 9 and then being raised alone

Yes, of course. I am just saying (in response to what you originally said) they are both motivated by death, obsession and anger (etc) to fight crime.