Fights that just didn't work for you

[[A]]

DD vs. Kingpin in the theatrical cut. I know he just got done with Bullseye, but all it was was Kingpin grabbing his billy club, making him go into the glass, and then he threw him into the wall. WTF? Kingpin was unimposing throughout the film really. Luckily the DC expanded it.

Have to agree, Mario. Especially when there's the DC to compare it to.

Thanks. I did not know what movie to watch. Now I do. *starts looking for his DD dvd*

 

[Eggyman]

Exactly. It all comes back to that. However, I do think Raimi could have saved that movie if he had axed Sandman and gave Venom his arc.

You make Brock a struggling reporter/photographer with a sick daughter. At the same time, I'd also make Brock a prick, so he's not too sympathetic. Part of the reason he can't get the money to help his sick kid out is because he lost a lot of it gambling. He tries to get the money to help his kid by stealing some of Pete's picks, but Pete (with the black suit on) goes ape***** on him and gets him fired. You could than have Brock's kid either die, or become seriously ill, giving Brock a reason to really hate Pete. (Of course the reality is it's really his fault because he was a *****e and gambled all his money away.) Then have Brock get the symbiote and become Venom.

And going off this, the Spidey/Venom fight was severely underwhelming.

**** sympathetic villains. Why can't we have a natural badass that is evil, who kills/robs and enjoys it, who in contrast shows the good of the hero rather than a film where all the characters are grey, dull, and whiney lil *****es?

There are plenty of good people in these films. So let's have the bad guys actually be bad and not be spoon fed a load of sh** and sentimentality.

I am half agreeing with you, BTW. I'm just far enough away from the Spidey hype to see the sh** more clearly than I used to. I don't want to feel sorry for the villains - maybe a small explanation as to how they came to be would be ok - I want to hate them and love them because of how much I hate them. I want to be able to be fully invested in the hero beating the **** out of the villain without feeling any sympathy for them. At all.

I'm not wanting to go into the pictures in June to watch T4 and be fed a load of sh** about how skynet was abused when it was a toaster-oven, or how the T-800s just want to be friends and are misunderstood, sent back in time by mistake when ordering a taxi. I want to hate them so I can cheer the good guys on when they blow them to ****ing pieces.

**** sympathetic villains.

---

Whoa, I only came in here to say how much a dislike the end fight in Blade 2

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea **** sympathetic villains! I wanna see bad guys who actually enjoy killing and maiming and what not. Not some ***** who is like "WA WA WAAA!! I had to do it save my daughter!" **** all that ****.

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

Agreed. I was so pissed at how Ock became good at the very end. Molina was awesome with what he was given, but if he was an arrogant ass the entire way through? He'd be given so much recognition.

And Sandman was a nightmare. He's a thug in the comics, and I don't remember the fanboys rallying for him to be in the movie in the first place. The daughter thing, as well as the whole ''I killed your uncle but not really'' was a slap in the face.

 

[Infinity9999x]

**** sympathetic villains. Why can't we have a natural badass that is evil, who kills/robs and enjoys it, who in contrast shows the good of the hero rather than a film where all the characters are grey, dull, and whiney lil *****es?

There are plenty of good people in these films. So let's have the bad guys actually be bad and not be spoon fed a load of sh** and sentimentality.

I am half agreeing with you, BTW. I'm just far enough away from the Spidey hype to see the sh** more clearly than I used to. I don't want to feel sorry for the villains - maybe a small explanation as to how they came to be would be ok - I want to hate them and love them because of how much I hate them. I want to be able to be fully invested in the hero beating the **** out of the villain without feeling any sympathy for them. At all.

I'm not wanting to go into the pictures in June to watch T4 and be fed a load of sh** about how skynet was abused when it was a toaster-oven, or how the T-800s just want to be friends and are misunderstood, sent back in time by mistake when ordering a taxi. I want to hate them so I can cheer the good guys on when they blow them to ****ing pieces.

**** sympathetic villains.

---

Whoa, I only came in here to say how much a dislike the end fight in Blade 2

Oh, I completely agree with you. One thing I dislike more than anything is when they make a villain sympathetic when he wasn't sympathetic to begin with. (Sandman and Ock for example.)

However, if you notice, in my description of Brock, I'd also said he was essentially a big prick. I wouldn't make him a nice guy who's down on his luck. I'd make him a guy who, yes, loves his daughter, but he goes out and spends all his money on gambling and drinking, (maybe throw in a prostitute or two, just to make him seem like a real lowlife) and that's the reason why he can't get money to help his little girl out. He'd basically act like a *****e to everyone except his daughter, so he wouldn't be too sympathetic. And when his daughter gets sick, part of you would be mad at Pete, but mostly you'd be looking at Brock going "well, this is basically your fault buddy, if you hadn't gambled your money away your kid would be getting help right now."

It's basically who Brock is in the comics, a guy who can't accept responsibility for himself. He blames everything on Pete, but deep down, he knows he *****ed up, not Peter.

Also, I gave him the daughter subplot simply because I thought Raimi needed to cut Sandman to make it a cleaner movie, so I combined Brock with Sandman.

 

[Eggyman]

Oh I agree. That's pure Brock, right there, especially 'well, this is basically your fault buddy'.

I'm the same in that if I want a sympathetic villain, then I want one who is already known to be sympathetic - The Lizard, for instance. Making a villain sympathetic changes the whole dynamic of the character - Ock got away with it because he was handled so well ... Sandman, not so much.

 

[[A]]

However, if you notice, in my description of Brock, I'd also said he was essentially a big prick. I wouldn't make him a nice guy who's down on his luck. I'd make him a guy who, yes, loves his daughter, but he goes out and spends all his money on gambling and drinking, (maybe throw in a prostitute or two, just to make him seem like a real lowlife) and that's the reason why he can't get money to help his little girl out

Hey!

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

That's another thing, characters like The Lizard really are screwed because now everyone gets the Spider-Man movie formula. If they used him now, it'd sort of lose the impact. We've seen a not so lucky scientist go crazy already.

 

[Eggyman]

That's another thing, characters like The Lizard really are screwed because now everyone gets the Spider-Man movie formula. If they used him now, it'd sort of lose the impact. We've seen a not so lucky scientist go crazy already.

An extremely good point, sir. It's like losing your virginity to a blow-up doll; it would've been better leaving it for the real thing.

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

^Hahaha

 

[Ace of Knaves]

That's a great point Mario. Now that basically every villain in the Spidey franchise was sympathetic when they shouldn't of been, the ones that SHOULD be sympathetic could be just shrugged off as "old hat".

 

[GlasgowBat]

so........

maybe try something different with lizard?

have conners revel in the power once he has transformed, making it fresh.

you could still keep the sympathetic angle by playing up the plight of conners, but it could be more akin to shakespearean tragedy, where the character is corrupted by a fatal flaw. This would be different, anyway.




on-topic: i hate the first big fight in daredevil. with a passion. horribly over the top.

 

[Eggyman]

so........

maybe try something different with lizard?

have conners revel in the power once he has transformed, making it fresh.

you could still keep the sympathetic angle by playing up the plight of conners, but it could be more akin to shakespearean tragedy, where the character is corrupted by a fatal flaw. This would be different, anyway.

Like Ock in Spidey 2.

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

I will say this, even though the first fight between Daredevil and Elektra around the kids sucked, at least the two had chemistry. If it was two people who just don't click, it would have been even worse.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hmmm maybe. But then that is another character that has been changed and I don't particularly trust Raimi and co that much any more.

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

Same. The franchise needs new blood. They should set the new ones about 10 yrs in the future so hopefully Peter isn't such a whiny ***** anymore.

 

[GlasgowBat]

Like Ock in Spidey 2.

except ock was never convincing, and he had the "mind control" nonsense.

also, the redemption bit at the end.

 

[The Joker]

except ock was never convincing, and he had the "mind control" nonsense.

also, the redemption bit at the end.

Ock has been the most convincing villain of the franchise so far, and the only villain who's story paralleled Peter's nicely without seeming contrived, as it was on a conceptual level.

There was nothing unconvincing about his passion for his work, or the lengths he went to in order to make it succeed. He was shown that he was capable of being irrational and violent at the demonstration scene. His turn to villainy was an extension of that side to him.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Ock has been the most convincing villain of the franchise so far, and the only villain who's story paralleled Peter's nicely without seeming contrived, as it was on a conceptual level.

There was nothing unconvincing about his passion for his work, or the lengths he went to in order to make it succeed. He was shown that he was capable of being irrational and violent at the demonstration scene. His turn to villainy was an extension of that side to him.

I liked that aspect of it, but what I didn't like is that it took the influence of the tentacles to push him into villainy. Ock should have been quite capable of turning into a merciless killer without the tentacles whispering in his ear. And he never should have redeemed himself at the end. That wasn't Ock.

I heard rumors that Lizard was going to be in SM2, and I'm not surprised if that's true. It really seems like Raimi did a cut and paste in some cases. The conversation with Ock, his wife, and Pete, that would have been perfect for a Connor's scene. Redeeming himself at the end? Perfect for Connors. For Ock? No, it doesn't fit the character.

However, Ock dropping May and smiling while saying "butterfingers" is perfect Ock.

Anywho, on the fight side, I know this has been brought up, but honestly, why in the heck does Spidey land so many punches on Ock, and why the heck does Ock stay concious!? I mean, Spidey is shown to be able to stop a train, lift up a huge segment of a dock wall, and yet he can't knock out a pudgy scientist? Come on.

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

Just one of those things. Everyone's favorite excuse though is that Spidey was pulling his punches.

 

[kedrell]

^Which I really don't buy.

 

[Deaths Head II]

Anywho, on the fight side, I know this has been brought up, but honestly, why in the heck does Spidey land so many punches on Ock, and why the heck does Ock stay concious!? I mean, Spidey is shown to be able to stop a train, lift up a huge segment of a dock wall, and yet he can't knock out a pudgy scientist? Come on.

I agree. In the comics Ock was a threat because his extra hands kept Spider-Man at such a distance. In his first appearance Ock basically used that strategy until Spider-Man decided to give his all and deck Ock with one punch. I can't even fathom why Spider-Man would pull his punches to the degree he supposedly did in the film, seeing how big a threat Ock was.

 

[Infinity9999x]

^^I agree with all of you guys. Sure Spidey pulls his punches, but he could still pull his punch and knock the guy out. Spidey always pulls his punches, because if he didn't he could literally knock someone's head off. It was a poor decision on the action front.

 

[gwynplaine]

BB fights didn't really work for me, on the other hand TDK's more than made up for them. Nolan really stepped up his game imo.

 

[Mario_Galaxy]

I still think they could do more. With the actual combat I mean. The stuff with the Batmobile and the 18 wheeler was gold, but I still think we need more of Batman himself kicking ass.