Harley Quinn Girl-Gang Movie Based on "Birds of Prey"

[DarthSkywalker]

But you're picking and choosing which ethnicity is more important. To you it might not matter what Bruce Wayne's heritage is, but to someone else it might. There's nothing wrong with having the characters be the ethnicity they were initially conceived as being. We have to stop looking through the lens of today for characters that were created decades before any of us were born because times were different back then. The issue is there's been little in the way of genuine effort to increase the level of characters from diverse backgrounds to fit with todays audiences. Race swapping is a lazy mans attempt to address what the real problem is - the stagnation of these mythologies, the acknowledgement that they need to reflect today's societies, but doing the bare minimum to solve the issue.

I'd ask why it matters to them so much. Because there are a lot of white male superheroes out there. I'd then ask, what about Bruce Wayne's mythology requires him to be white. No one ever said these character being white. The problem arises at the chance they might not be for a film adaptation. It isn't about any of these characters being white. It is suddenly why they have to be white. I can tell you why Black Panther needs to be black. Why does Superman or Batman need to be white?

The truth is we all know why the most well known superheroes are white straight males, who usually represent a Christian background. It was that this country as a whole decided a certain ethnicity, a certain gender, a certain way of living was above the rest.

But the thing is, I, plenty of non-white kids, grew up wanting to be Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, etc. The idea that one cannot do that because of the color of their skin, because this is all we were presented, feels really wrong. Its reinforcing that fundamental era in the first place and limits opportunities in general.

 

[2kt09]

Except the studios are clearly not interested in using newer characters. They want iconic characters that have fanbases and are fairly known. We've had 3 Spidey reboots in less then 10 years, did we need another Peter Parker when they created Miles Morales and ended up taking stuff from that character?

Studios and comic publishers in general.
American superheroes are a lost cause.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And how many people do you think are genuinely happy about it all irrespective of their background? Why do you think there's been outcry's over Buffy, Charmed, Thundercats, She-Ra, TMNT etc? It's because those mythologies are important to people as they currently exist. This is the problem, TV and movies know they have to reflect society today better, but are too scared to pull the trigger on something new because everyones jobs are on the line, so all we get is this weird compromise that no-one likes.

You keep saying mythologies, without explaining why any of this has to do with a characters mythology meaning they have to be white. An era appropriate James Bond would need to be a white male. Why does a 2018 Batman or Superman? Why?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Studios and comic publishers in general.
American superheroes are a lost cause.

It is very odd to argue, "just make a new superhero". Because that really is a thing that there is a business for in this day and age.

 

[2kt09]

It is very odd to argue, "just make a new superhero". Because that really is a thing that there is a business for in this day and age.

emphasis on "American superheroes"

 

[Black Narcissus]

I thought both Will Smith and Zazie Beetz were good in their roles. Eh. I read these kinds of debates, it reminds me of what is happening outside still spills over into comicbook flicks. I guess not being a die hard comicbook reader gives me a more neutral perspective? lol

Cool with an all white gal team. Cool with minorities on the team.

 

[Primal Slayer]

And how many people do you think are genuinely happy about it all irrespective of their background? Why do you think there's been outcry's over Buffy, Charmed, Thundercats, She-Ra, TMNT etc? It's because those mythologies are important to people as they currently exist. This is the problem, TV and movies know they have to reflect society today better, but are too scared to pull the trigger on something new because everyones jobs are on the line, so all we get is this weird compromise that no-one likes.

People aren't pissed about a Black Buffy. They are pissed about the show being rebooted. Same for all those other shows. Race is the least of the issue. If you rebooted Buffy 20 years from now with a black actress, most of us wouldnt be mad, same with Charmed. If we talk about mythologies then comic characters should just stay in the comics and not be adapted at all.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Jesus Christ.

Spoiler

I wanted to repost this here. It would be a crime to humanity if she is not Poison Ivy. Now, ya'll can get back to your debate.

 

[Juan1193]

It is very odd to argue, "just make a new superhero". Because that really is a thing that there is a business for in this day and age.

There have been new diverse superheoes created in the last 20 years. Some have caught on, others have not. Though it seems creating legacy characters has produced the most success.

 

[Boy Scout]

This articles articulates my point far better:

https://www.slashfilm.com/buffy-reboot-problems/

I’m curious as to what you, personally, meant. Because asa black man, I truly don’t give a damn about race changes.

 

[jmc]

I'd ask why it matters to them so much. Because there are a lot of white male superheroes out there. I'd then ask, what about Bruce Wayne's mythology requires him to be white. No one ever said these character being white. The problem arises at the chance they might not be for a film adaptation. It isn't about any of these characters being white. It is suddenly why they have to be white. I can tell you why Black Panther needs to be black. Why does Superman or Batman need to be white?

The truth is we all know why the most well known superheroes are white straight males, who usually represent a Christian background. It was that this country as a whole decided a certain ethnicity, a certain gender, a certain way of living was above the rest.

But the thing is, I, plenty of non-white kids, grew up wanting to be Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, etc. The idea that one cannot do that because of the color of their skin, because this is all we were presented, feels really wrong. Its reinforcing that fundamental era in the first place and limits opportunities in general.

For the same reason Black Panther is African, that's just who they are. If you take away their identities then they are no longer characters, they are concepts, there's nothing special about them anymore. Bruce Wayne is meant to be a person, just like T'Challa, so to dismiss Wayne's characteristics as unimportant is more or less to say one person is better than the other, and that is misguided IMO.

 

[jmc]

I’m curious as to what you, personally, meant. Because asa black man, I truly don’t give a damn about race changes.

I'm of the belief that characters being race swapped is weak solution to the problem of having pop culture reflect how society looks today. In other words, we need newer mythologies to be developed.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I like Black Canary being a white girl but there is absolutely nothing about her identity needing her to be white. She can be the same exact character that we know in the comics and still be any color.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

For the same reason Black Panther is African, that's just who they are. If you take away their identities then they are no longer characters, they are concepts, there's nothing special about them anymore. Bruce Wayne is meant to be a person, just like T'Challa, so to dismiss Wayne's characteristics as unimportant is more or less to say one person is better than the other, and that is misguided IMO.

Being African in the vast majority of Africa means being black. And if you want to discuss South Africa, we can get into that. What part of Bruce Wayne's identity requires him to be white? You keep avoiding this question. If Bruce Wayne isn't white, is he no longer a character? Bruce Wayne being Japanese American means he's not special anymore? Why?

Clark Kent is alien from across the universe. Why does he need to be a white male?

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I like Black Canary being a white girl but there is absolutely nothing about her identity needing her to be white. She can be the same exact character that we know in the comics and still be any color.

There's nothing about her identity needing her to be blonde either. Would you be okay if Black Canary had red hair?

 

[Primal Slayer]

There's nothing about her identity needing her to be blonde either. Would you be okay if Black Canary had red hair?

I would be annoyed but if the character is good it is something I'd get over like I did with Barry not being blonde in The Flash.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There's nothing about her identity needing her to be blonde either. Would you be okay if Black Canary had red hair?

Well I got over Matt not being a redhead and Lois being one... so yeah. I'd be fine.

 

[Fincher]

Being African in the vast majority of Africa means being black. And if you want to discuss South Africa, we can get into that. What part of Bruce Wayne's identity requires him to be white? You keep avoiding this question. If Bruce Wayne isn't white, is he no longer a character? Bruce Wayne being Japanese American means he's not special anymore? Why?

What if they changed Wakanda to Wakandistan, stuck it near India, and then made Black Panther South Asian?

Not that I'm claiming some ultimate truth that characters can't be racebent, but there's also no ultimate truth as to when it does or doesn't matter. I care in the case Black Canary, and I don't care in the case of Superman.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I would be annoyed but if the character is good it is something I'd get over like I did with Barry not being blonde in The Flash.

What if Supes was a red head? Or black?

Regardless if we're able to 'get over it', is it something you'd advocate?

 

[Primal Slayer]

If you change Wakanda to Wakandistan then it is no longer Wakanda and no longer has anything to do about Black Panther or his mythos.

There are certain aspects of characters that make up who they are, Superman should always be Krypton, Batman needs both parents dead, Green Arrow should know how to shoot arrows lol.

 

[Primal Slayer]

What if Supes was a red head? Or black?

Regardless if we're able to 'get over it', is it something you'd advocate?

Are we just going to go down the list of characters? lol.

If its the right actor for the roles, go for it.

I can admit that I like my characters for the most part how they are depicted in comics and like to stay true to them if possible and at first I am annoyed if they change things but if they do them well enough I am able to jump on the boat and go along for the ride.

 

[2kt09]

There's nothing about her identity needing her to be blonde either. Would you be okay if Black Canary had red hair?

Another blonde-haired character bites the dust.

 

[Fincher]

If you change Wakanda to Wakandistan then it is no longer Wakanda and no longer has anything to do about Black Panther or his mythos.

There are certain aspects of characters that make up who they are, Superman should always be Krypton, Batman needs both parents dead, Green Arrow should know how to shoot arrows lol.

No, everybody gets to decide for themselves which aspects matter to them and which don't. Maybe someone wants Superman to stay white but is fine with him being from Neptune. Maybe they're okay with Lois becoming Leonard but insist that Superman keeps his hair curl. They aren't wrong to care about the aspects that they care about.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Trevante Rhodes would make a HOT Superman

No, everybody gets to decide for themselves which aspects matter to them and which don't. Maybe someone wants Superman to stay white but is fine with him being from Neptune. Maybe they're okay with Lois becoming Leonard but insist that Superman keeps his hair curl. They aren't wrong to care about the aspects that they care about.

 

[jmc]

Being African in the vast majority of Africa means being black. And if you want to discuss South Africa, we can get into that. What part of Bruce Wayne's identity requires him to be white? You keep avoiding this question. If Bruce Wayne isn't white, is he no longer a character? Bruce Wayne being Japanese American means he's not special anymore? Why?

Clark Kent is alien. Why does he need to be a white male?

I haven't avoided the question. They were created that way and evolved to become what they are today. It's like saying why does Santa Claus have to be overweight. Does he have to be overweight and have a beard? No, but symbolism is lost when you don't have that imagery there. Bruce Wayne being the ethnicity his is is tied to the symbolism of Batman, just as T'Challa is tied to the symbolism of Black Panther, as well as every other major comic character out there. And when you remove it the symbolism is no longer the same. The value in characters retaining how they look when they were created is that in the future they become recognisable symbols for something more, something heroic, that is far more important than I think you realise. It's how the religions of the world have lasted for so long. You might not think it's a big deal, but when you start to alter characters in a substantial way, whether it's through visuals or personality, people feel like something they love is being taken away. That thing they love is no longer important. You only have to look at the Luke Skywalker drama with TLJ to see what happens when you do that. This is why it shouldn't be about what the ethnicity of exiting characters are, we should simply accept that for what it is. What we need is something that builds from those foundations, brings in new ideas that reflect who we are today and allow new characters to become the symbols of heroism in the future.