Has the MCU peaked?

[Iceman]

Phase 4 I guess is the equivalent of Phase 1 of this new set of Phases. I expect the quality to pick up with the new set of films that follow these that have already been announced. They need to be more consistent regardless as there seem to be many more people who are not quite satisfied than we’ve been used to.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

When I look at Phase 1, 2 and 3, for me at least, it felt like the phases got progressively better.

Now, I understand that Kevin Feige said Phase 4 would be a new beginning. But while it wouldn't be bigger than Phase 3 in terms of scale, I thought the quality would continue to improve. But I enjoyed Phase 3 movies more.

However, I also have to say that I really appreciate them taking more risks, and I loved WandaVision. And I hope they continue this path.

I'm impatient for FF and the X-Men like many others but I think Feige knows that once they introduce the X-Men, the audience will be even less interested in lesser known characters that are being introduced right now.

 

[Lip]

I'm impatient for FF and the X-Men like many others but I think Feige knows that once they introduce the X-Men, the audience will be even less interested in lesser known characters that are being introduced right now.

Yeah, I understand that. But still... I liked Guardians of the Galaxy more than I liked Eternals, you know what I mean?

 

[Docker2.0]

Phase Four has not been very good so far. The Disney+ shows are all suffering from similar issues (filler content, mediocre finales, dodgy special effects), and most of the movies have been forgettable with some of them being outright bad. Considering the MCU's whole schtick has been interconnectivity and "building towards something bigger," Phase Four has felt pretty aimless, and like they're trying to find their way again. Unless they start putting out quality content on a more consistent basis, I have to admit that the whole thing is losing a bit of steam with me. Especially when they're producing as much content as they are now. If they keep assaulting us with mediocrity it's going to burn people out real quick.

This!!!! So much this!!!! People take it the wrong way when you say anything bad about Marvel but this phase has sucked. And I know I may get heat for saying this but making the team 90% female for no reason whatsoever is backwards. I get it..............but ..................I'm going to leave it at that.........

 

[Lip]

Any problem Phase 4 could possibly have has nothing to do with female characters there.

 

[Docker2.0]

Any problem Phase 4 could possibly have has nothing to do with female characters there.

It does for a LOT of people, especially when it feels forced. I.E, Endgame, the female scene. Tell me that didn't seem forced to you or it fit perfectly.
Ironically, the Wrap is saying the same thing now.
Are Marvel's Slipping Movie Audience Scores Affecting Their Box Office Bottom Line?

 

[Lip]

Yeah, I agree. A LOT of people see the problems on female characters, or any minority.

The problem is in those people, tho. Not the inclusion of female characters.

And if you ask me, a fully white, mostly male team sounds super forced, because it certainly does not reflect the world as it is and how I experience it. And we still had 10 years of that. Without those same people complaining about it.

Sounds like the problem is not what "seems forced", but especifically the inclusion of women.

The problem always has been and always will be those people.

 

[Venom 1988]

This!!!! So much this!!!! People take it the wrong way when you say anything bad about Marvel but this phase has sucked. And I know I may get heat for saying this but making the team 90% female for no reason whatsoever is backwards. I get it..............but ..................I'm going to leave it at that.........

Yea...that's not the issue. And what team exactly are you referring to here?
Also side note, elipses are 3 dots.

 

[writer0327]

Right now, Phase 4 feels like the "let's throw these characters at the wall and see if they stick" phase. It's like tryouts in youth sports. All of these characters are trying out to see if they will make the team and make it all the way to Phase 6. And look, Marvel has earned it. They have the cachet and the belief from the fans that we're going to get something memorable, something fun, or at least somewhat entertaining when we sit down and watch whatever they drop, so why not go for broke and give new writers, new directors, and new characters a chance?

However, it is apparent to me that once the MCU gets away from RDJ, Scarlett Johansson, The Russo Bros, and James Gunn, the MCU is in reality a whole lotta "meh". Even the Spidey films were full of empty calories (fun, yes, but still empty)...gimmicky storytelling, over-reliance on nostalgia and fan-service. And all of that has bled into Phase 4 as well. All these new kids on the block getting a chance to make and star in MCU films are just showing that they aren't as entertaining as what came before, at least not in this space. They are making highly forgettable shows and movies and this game is ultimately about entertaining folks.

 

[Docker2.0]

Yeah, I agree. A LOT of people see the problems on female characters, or any minority.

The problem is in those people, tho. Not the inclusion of female characters.

And if you ask me, a fully white, mostly male team sounds super forced, because it certainly does not reflect the world as it is and how I experience it. And we still had 10 years of that. Without those same people complaining about it.

Sounds like the problem is not what "seems forced", but especifically the inclusion of women.

The problem always has been and always will be those people.

Ok me being a minority growing up on comics, I see what is about to be thrown around despite the fact that the majority of comic heroes are male. No one has a problem with female characters and definitely minorities if done organically.. But it seems when you even mention certain things that people close their ears and don't want to hear it. But it's cool. Thor is going to have a huge drop this week for...........reasons. The same as Dr. Strange and I know people will always say bigots or whatever, despite there are minorities AND women screaming the same thing. If done right, it can work but forcing said issue in certain situations does not work. Didn't work in Loki, didn't work in Hawkeye, didn't work in Moon Knight or Strange and it won't work in Echo when Daredevil is sidelined for her. Yep! I'm calling it now in advanced.

 

[writer0327]

Ok me being a minority growing up on comics, I see what is about to be thrown around despite the fact that the majority of comic heroes are male. No one has a problem with female characters and definitely minorities if done organically.. But it seems when you even mention certain things that people close their ears and don't want to hear it. But it's cool. Thor is going to have a huge drop this week for...........reasons. The same as Dr. Strange and I know people will always say bigots or whatever, despite there are minorities AND women screaming the same thing. If done right, it can work but forcing said issue in certain situations does not work. Didn't work in Loki, didn't work in Hawkeye, didn't work in Moon Knight or Strange and it won't work in Echo when Daredevil is sidelined for her. Yep! I'm calling it now in advanced.

The only thing that counts is the audience. It doesn't matter who they put in the movie or why or for what reason they were including in the movies. The audience, the paying customer, decides what is working and what isn't. If having a diverse cast of women and minorities is what the paying customer wants, it will reflect in the box office. If not, then you have to start thinking about what your paying customer wants to see.

That's one main reason why the box office is important because it tells the real story about what moviegoers really care about: Entertainment. I mean, who at the beginning of the year had Top Gun Maverick beating Dr. Strange or Thor Love & Thunder? Who thought Lightyear would tank?

If Marvel is putting entertainment product second behind creating a diverse cast, then that explains it all.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I love it when I come in a thread where people don't actually understand box office numbers, but find a way to use any data to kick women and minorities. Because as the world has taught us, you can't tell a "good story" about minorities and women that people will see. It's impossible...

Oh, what's that? Captain Marvel and Black Panther are two of the highest grossing MCU films? MOM destroyed the first movie at the box office without China, Russia, the Middle East and Ukraine? The two Thor flicks with the most diversity will end up the two highest grossing in the franchise? Weird...

 

[Spider-Fan]

Your main characters being women or minorities has nothing to do with whatever perceived decline in content quality there is. Characters being women or minorities doesn't make anything worse nor better. Good writing and storytelling isn't just for white male characters. If you feel the decline is due to too many women and minorities, then you are not really the kind of person who's opinion I respect. If we want to have an honest conversation about writing quality, underwhelming season finales, and the like there is certainly a good convo to be had. The D+ shows do all have the same trajectory and general issues. But the issues with the shows are not cause they are forcing women and minorities into the MCU.

But I would also say Marvel Studios is new to the live action show game, and it may take time for them to master it. The MCU had plenty of struggles with the movies in Phase 1 and 2. Not every movie was 5 star.

I honestly think the major issue is too much content. When your number of projects increases, you cannot pay attention the same way you can when you're putting out 1 or 2 movies at a time. Back then, Marvel could course correct themselves more easily and seemingly quicker. I say seemingly because when 1 or 2 films are in production at one time, you can make adjustments that are felt within 2-3 films. See Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World seeing struggle but then Marvel putting out Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy 1 year later. But Marvel is now releasing 3 or 4 films plus 4-6 shows a year. If there is a problem, changes may be implemented in the same time period in a chronological sense in real world time, but we perceive it as not changing cause we are experiencing projects too far into development that have those same issues. So those changes don't feel implemented as quickly. High volume of content also means you grow tired of it quicker. If I go to Red Lobster 3 times in a year and then I go again, I can he excited. If I am going every week, the novelty wears off.

The MCU has challenges. Very valid ones. But having women and minorities isn't one of them

 

[Docker2.0]

Your main characters being women or minorities has nothing to do with whatever perceived decline in content quality there is. Characters being women or minorities doesn't make anything worse nor better. Good writing and storytelling isn't just for white male characters. If you feel the decline is due to too many women and minorities, then you are not really the kind of person who's opinion I respect. If we want to have an honest conversation about writing quality, underwhelming season finales, and the like there is certainly a good convo to be had. The D+ shows do all have the same trajectory and general issues. But the issues with the shows are not cause they are forcing women and minorities into the MCU.

But I would also say Marvel Studios is new to the live action show game, and it may take time for them to master it. The MCU had plenty of struggles with the movies in Phase 1 and 2. Not every movie was 5 star.

I honestly think the major issue is too much content. When your number of projects increases, you cannot pay attention the same way you can when you're putting out 1 or 2 movies at a time. Back then, Marvel could course correct themselves more easily and seemingly quicker. I say seemingly because when 1 or 2 films are in production at one time, you can make adjustments that are felt within 2-3 films. See Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World seeing struggle but then Marvel putting out Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy 1 year later. But Marvel is now releasing 3 or 4 films plus 4-6 shows a year. If there is a problem, changes may be implemented in the same time period in a chronological sense in real world time, but we perceive it as not changing cause we are experiencing projects too far into development thay have those same issues. So those changes don't feel implemented as quickly. High volume of content also means you grow tired of it quicker. If I go to Red Lobster 3 times in a year and then I go again, I can he excites. If I am going every week, the novelty wears off.

The MCU has challenges. Very valid ones. But having women and minorities isn't one of them

Again, I am a minority and a lot of you guys are.........IDK....willfully just not getting. I have no problem with She Hulk or Wasp or Captain Marvel or whoever. But there is a problem when you can LITERALLY predict when a male character is sidelined BEFORE a series even starts. It has happened EVERY. SINGLE. TIME in Marvel phase 4 and you can see it continuing to happen. Anytime someone makes this observation they are made to be a racist or sexist, even though they could be a black female. The truth is the truth. Loki was weak AF in his own series while lady Loki took over. Same with Moon Knight who let the idiot have control most of the time. But I digress once again. We will see how people are feeling phase 4 this weekend when Thor 4 number come in. But it will..............never mind. We will just see then.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Again, I am a minority and a lot of you guys are.........IDK....willfully just not getting. I have no problem with She Hulk or Wasp or Captain Marvel or whoever. But there is a problem when you can LITERALLY predict when a male character is sidelined BEFORE a series even starts. It has happened EVERY. SINGLE. TIME in Marvel phase 4 and you can see it continuing to happen. Anytime someone makes this observation they are made to be a racist or sexist, even though they could be a black female. The truth is the truth. Loki was weak AF in his own series while lady Loki took over. Same with Moon Knight who let the idiot have control most of the time. But I digress once again. We will see how people are feeling phase 4 this weekend when Thor 4 number come in. But it will..............never mind. We will just see then.

Sidelining a character has nothing to do with sex or race. So why even make that part of the issue then? Would it be more palatable if it was same story, but instead of being "sidelined" by Kate Bishop, Clint was usurped by white dude Karl Bishop? So that portion of your argument holds no water.

Now, if you want to have the discussion about characters being sidelined as an issue, then let's discuss that. Phase 4 has very much been a passing of the torch phase by design. Let's not forget some of these people have been in the MCU for 10+ years and probably want smaller roles. Who takes these roles when they want scaled back? We have seen a mix of legacy characters and new guys like Moon Knight. It makes sense to do that. I think the larger issue you are pointing out is these new replacements are less interesting. Which is a valid thing to discuss, but I think that also comes down to having many pies in the oven. But let us also not forget, after TFA and Avengers for example, Captain America was not even close to being anyone's favorite Avenger. There was legit jokes about it in memes and such. But comes Winter Soldier, that changed. Same for Thor until Ragnarok. So these characters were in the MCU like....4-7 years before they hit their strides in some cases? Moon Knight, Kate Bishop, etc all down the line are new. In 4 years time, our opinions may change like they did with the OG Avengers.

I think we forget that Marvel Studios didn't make 5 star films with characters that were universally loved with no growing pains. So, let's let some of these characters grow before we cast them off to the Island of misfit toys

 

[Snow Queen]

Phase 4 reminds me of reading comics more than any other phase. I don't really care for big crossovers as much as solo stories and the lack of a looming crossover and need to continually remind you that eventually something will happen is nice. I watch Love and Thunder and it feels like I'm just watching Waititi do his run on Thor. It's nice. Barring Endgame, I don't really care for any of the Avengers movies, so not feeling the need to constantly circle back to them in between each solo movie is not a negative for me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Again, I am a minority and a lot of you guys are.........IDK....willfully just not getting. I have no problem with She Hulk or Wasp or Captain Marvel or whoever. But there is a problem when you can LITERALLY predict when a male character is sidelined BEFORE a series even starts. It has happened EVERY. SINGLE. TIME in Marvel phase 4 and you can see it continuing to happen. Anytime someone makes this observation they are made to be a racist or sexist, even though they could be a black female. The truth is the truth. Loki was weak AF in his own series while lady Loki took over. Same with Moon Knight who let the idiot have control most of the time. But I digress once again. We will see how people are feeling phase 4 this weekend when Thor 4 number come in. But it will..............never mind. We will just see then.

Yes, and?

How was Loki "weak AF" on his own series? Because he wasn't physically dominate in combat? That's never been Loki's thing. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you watched the show, but complaining about Sylvie, a variant of Loki, making him look weak AF is just... okay, did you watch the show? He was by far the most prominent character. There

Moreover, you are complaining about the SIDELINING of Daredevil on the show ECHO. WTF for? You should be worried about Matt overshadowing her on HER SHOW.

Who is the "idiot" from Moon Knight?

As to your "black female comment"... so, so many issues.

 

[Sithborg]

This!!!! So much this!!!! People take it the wrong way when you say anything bad about Marvel but this phase has sucked. And I know I may get heat for saying this but making the team 90% female for no reason whatsoever is backwards. I get it..............but ..................I'm going to leave it at that.........

You really need to get specific here. Because being this ambiguous doesn't exactly paint you in a good light. That is a big reason why you are getting pushback.

Again, I am a minority and a lot of you guys are.........IDK....willfully just not getting. I have no problem with She Hulk or Wasp or Captain Marvel or whoever. But there is a problem when you can LITERALLY predict when a male character is sidelined BEFORE a series even starts. It has happened EVERY. SINGLE. TIME in Marvel phase 4 and you can see it continuing to happen. Anytime someone makes this observation they are made to be a racist or sexist, even though they could be a black female. The truth is the truth. Loki was weak AF in his own series while lady Loki took over. Same with Moon Knight who let the idiot have control most of the time. But I digress once again. We will see how people are feeling phase 4 this weekend when Thor 4 number come in. But it will..............never mind. We will just see then.

Lets look at this, then.

Black Widow: Which male was supposed to be sidelined for the title character?
Eternals: Fairly big ensemble cast, but it seemed to be an even spread at the finale.
Shang-Chi: I don't see having 2 women allies as sidelining Shang Chi
Now Way Home: lol, they fridged a lady
Strange: Haven't seen it, but is Wanda being more popular than Strange an issue?
Thor: Everything I've seen is not enough Jane Thor, so shrug

As for the TV shows, they are a mess sure. After the first two, they are driven by the need for each episode to hit social media engagement.

Falcon & Winter Soldier: Fairly certain not enough woman characters to sideline anyone
Loki: I don't see how that works out, Loki was pure Hiddleston star show
Hawkeye: Just because a character is more popular than another doesn't mean the mentor is being sidelined.
Ms. Marvel: lol

As for the Box Office, Strange had a good run. You open that big, a big drop is to be expected. It actually had about the same first weekend drop as No Way Home. And that second weekend was propped by the holidays. Thor may be looking at a steep drop, sure. But it is a combination of factors, not just reaction to the film. Maverick and Minions are going to be nibbling away at its run.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

MOM got to 955m in a 45 day release window without China, Russia, the Middle East, and Ukraine. In comparison, Civil War made 973m without China, in a 4 month release window.

It would be really helpful if people knew what they were talking about.

 

[Bayne]

This line of 'argument' is coming from the guy who's repeatedly peddled the bull**** conspiracy theory that Love and Thunder would outright replace Hemsworth with Portman and she would be the main MCU Thor moving forward. A theory based on literally zero evidence of any kind, even before the movie came out.

I don't know how many of you have seen L&T yet but not only did it *not* do that, it did so much the *opposite* of that that the idea of her just replacing him moving forward was made pretty much completely impossible.

When Docker says 'you can predict when a male character is sidelined before its even released' what he means is he does predict that will happen about every show or movie no matter what the circumstances or evidence and he is completely and totally unwilling to admit his predictions have often been completely obliterated by the actual shows and movies as released.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

it won't work in Echo when Daredevil is sidelined for her. Yep! I'm calling it now in advanced.

Wow, you're calling it now that DAREDEVIL will be sidelined in the ECHO show? Such a bold prediction how'd you come up with it?
I have one too: I'm calling it now that IRON HEART (a black girl btw) will be sidelined in the BLACK PANTHER movie.
Isn't that a bold prediction? I bet everyone is going to be very upset that Riri isn't the main character in BP2 the same way that people will be upset that Daredevil isn't the main character in Echo.
But seriously, Daredevil is supposedly a supporting character in only a couple of episodes of Echo in a show that is described as being about "Maya Lopez returns to her hometown, where she must come to terms with her past, reconnect with her Native American roots, and embrace her family and community". How can Maya possibly sideline Matt in a show about Maya coming to terms with her past and reconnecting with her Native American roots?

Same with Moon Knight who let the idiot have control most of the time.

You mean Steven? Steven is just as much Moon Knight as Marc is. They are a system. Their collective being is Moon Knight. I can see how you could say that you like Marc's character over Steven's and would've liked to see more of Marc, but I don't see how this has anything to do with some kind of bigger pattern of "women and minorities forcibly sidelining popular characters". They're literally both latino actor Oscar Isaac.

 

[Batgirl0202]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I've totally enjoyed everything I've had a chance to actually watch from Phase Four so far.

Yes the experience has been different from the first three phases, but I don't consider this to be a bad thing at all. And I agree, judging by what I've seen so far, the experience of watching Phase Four content more closely replicates the experience of reading the comics growing up, more so than what earlier phases provided.

I'm gonna try to see Love & Thunder this weekend. Can't wait to watch Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, and She-Hulk!

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Overall ranking wise, Phase 4 is second only to Phase 3 still. But I will note, between MoM (8.6) and LaT (7.9/10) the last couple have underwhelmed me. Even left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. I will just say my expectations were high for both and they failed to meet those expectations. NWH on the other hand was a homerun.

I don't know what else to say other than, 29 movies in Marvel Studios needs to start breaking the mold if they want to keep me enthralled the way I was with the Infinity Saga. Sorry to say it, but I dont expect Wakanda Forever to change this trajectory.

But expectations may be the problem to begin with! So here's hoping they prove me wrong.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I am mixed on Phase 4 so far. For me No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, WandaVision and Shang Chi have all been great.

I also enjoyed Moon Knight more than most and enjoyed Loki a lot, with Ms Marvel being a good experience overall but more cute than good because of Imam.

But for me Love and Thunder just didn't land and it gets worse in my head the more I think of it. Eternals was boring and the last 3rd of Black Widow just totally **** the bed. Hawkeye was mixed and She Hulk is looking a bit iffy so far.

 

[Immortalfire]

The MCU Will not be complete until they bring in SuperPro!