Comics Have Spidey comics passed the point of of no return?

[DACrowe]

I think it is safe to agree that SM comics have been on a decline since the early '90s. That for every good story there were three bad ones, some taking years (cough Clone Saga cough).

But recently despite some nice modifcations recently by Jenkins with the villains and JMS bringing Peter and MJ together again quite well....that it has jumped the shark?

I mean Gwen is now a ****e who NOrman had sex with and had his illegitmate children and hid them from Pete, which is why she was killed and MJ knew all along, Spidey now got his powers from a spider-god and is transforming into some super powered freak, he is a team player on the Avengers, has no supporting cast, his entire relationship with Flash, Betty and Liz has been retconned in the last two years and the unmasking of Peter Parker was deliberate on national television and has kind of ruined his whole identity.

Aunt May since being stupidly resurrected from her great death has gone on to just get shot by a sniper and Peter is wearing black in a movie tie-in and is about three months away from retconning the MJ marriage by erasing 40 years worth of character development and history.

Is it safe to say the character we loved to read and what made him great in the '60s, '70s, '80s and even parts of the '90s is now gone, forever?

I kind of am just fed up with what Marvel has done and am leaving, I think.

 

[Pablo Parker]

I think it is safe to agree that SM comics have been on a decline since the early '90s. That for every good story there were three bad ones, some taking years (cough Clone Saga cough).

But recently despite some nice modifcations recently by Jenkins with the villains and JMS bringing Peter and MJ together again quite well....that it has jumped the shark?

I mean Gwen is now a ****e who NOrman had sex with and had his illegitmate children and hid them from Pete, which is why she was killed and MJ knew all along, Spidey now got his powers from a spider-god and is transforming into some super powered freak, he is a team player on the Avengers, has no supporting cast, his entire relationship with Flash, Betty and Liz has been retconned in the last two years and the unmasking of Peter Parker was deliberate on national television and has kind of ruined his whole identity.

Aunt May since being stupidly resurrected from her great death has gone on to just get shot by a sniper and Peter is wearing black in a movie tie-in and is about three months away from retconning the MJ marriage by erasing 40 years worth of character development and history.

Is it safe to say the character we loved to read and what made him great in the '60s, '70s, '80s and even parts of the '90s is now gone, forever?

I kind of am just fed up with what Marvel has done and am leaving, I think.

I´m really sorry to second that. I just stopped buying spidey comic books a year ago and now i´ve decided to just try to get all the issues from the 80´s i don´t have...

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I stopped when Norman made Goblin Babies with Gwen... And it seems that I won't come back for a while... Things are looking bad...

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

No character is ever past the point of no return. All it takes is a good writer to come by and restore what makes the character great and iconic.

Let me take your points one by one:

-Sins Past - Can't argue with this one. It was a ridiculous story, but it'll either be retconned or completely ignored.

-New powers - Kind of agree, but calling him a super-powered freak? He's been that way since Amazing Fantasy #15, my friend. Again, the powers will either be undone, ignored, or utilized by a (VERY) skilled writer who can find a way to use them creatively.

-Avengers - Call him a loner, but not so much as a character like Wolverine, who doesn't belong there at all. I don't mind Spidey on the New Avengers, ESPECIALLY now that the team is essentially what's left of the rebellion. Post-SHRA, it makes sense for Spidey to want to find strength in numbers. Pre-SHRA is debatable.

-Supporting cast - While I disagree that Pete's relationship with the supporting cast has been "retconned" (and I honestly have no idea what you even mean by that), it's true that JMS has woefully ignored Spider-Man's extended family since the beginning of his run. However, that's made up for by Friendly Neighborhood and Sensational.

-Aunt May's Death - While I definitely feel that ASM #400 will trump any kind of death they may produce for May in the coming months, it's not like this is the first story arc since her return from the dead. It's been YEARS since her death and nearly a decade since her return, so saying that she was brought back from the dead only to be offed again is completely inaccurate.

-Marriage - Frankly, I really doubt that the marriage is going to be "retconned" (and I'm beginning to think you're misusing the word there) or even ended.

All Spidey needs is a halfway decent writer to come by and restore what we love about him. NO character is beyond repair, ever.

 

[SpideyStu2]

I don't think Spidey writers "jump the shark" until they kill Mary Jane. And maybe that's a little sooner than we all think.

 

[freemadison]

All Spidey needs is a halfway decent writer to come by and restore what we love about him. NO character is beyond repair, ever.

Exactly.

I think a lot of people are really overreacting about Spidey's direction. Other than the unmasking, how does the new powers, Gwen's infidelity, and joining the NA (which rarely ever cross over into the main titles) affect Spider-Man's status quo? It doesn't.

He almost never uses the new powers.

He still reminisces about Gwen and how he could've saved her (snooze).

His team almost never appears in the main titles. He also doesn't DO ANYTHING in New Avengers other than the occassional quip

(As I type this i'm realizing that Bendis was probably doing that so that the same fanboys wouldn't be *****ing about the important events Spidey takes part of in NA that aren't part of the main titles.)

I mean seriously, as a clone saga fan, i'd love for certain details of that storyline to be acknowledged (like the death of Baby May and Ben Reilly) in any shape or form in the 616. But it never happens. So don't get your panties in a bunch about Gwen's infidelity or that kind of nonsense.

It'll almost never get mentioned again.

Finally, I was having a discussion with my friends about a possible Spider-Man 4 movie when I realized that there isn't really anything left to do. What would it possibly be about? Norman, Harry, Ock, and Venom are the classic villains. Everyone else (other than Kingpin, who's probably reserved for Daredevil) is a B-lister. Vulture? Rhino? Electro? Morlun? (*snicker*) The only story of any importance that's left is probably the Clone Saga. But Marvel will never touch that unless they do a Clone Saga III of sorts in the comics that is wildly popular. The only other things left are Norman's return, some sort of incarnation of Sinister Six, and the unmasking (but that's sorta pointless without CW).

Point of that last rant was...Spider-Man's hardly "crossed the line". If anything, he's stagnant and needs some fresh ideas and villains.

 

[Sloth7d]

I liked the 90's era of Spider-man alot. I liked clone saga. I LOVED Defaulcos run on Amazing and I loved the epic defeat he gave Norman Osborn during the Gathering of Five arc, which should have been Normans last appearance for a while.
I honestly have no clue why some actually hate clone saga which was an epic saga with a great story which in the end changed nothing major in the Spider-man mythos like what happened in Sins Past and The Other. It was a great story and all the complaints over it seem stupid.
But I do agree that once Spider-man and maybe marvel as a whole hit their 2000 run, things started to go down hill.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I dunno... I mean, as much as I thought Sins and the Other sucked, I still think Gathering of Five/Final Crapter can stand as the worst Spider-Man story ever (sorry, sloth, but it's true). I think as more time passes we forget just how bad some of the crap Byrne and Mackie did with the relaunch was. Anyone remember how Peter got his spider-powers from an explosion? Or how Norman Osborn and Sandman are cousins? No? Because thankfully 'Chapter One' has been retconned. See what I mean?

 

[Sloth7d]

I honestly can't see what you could have against the Gathering of Five arc, especially to say it was worse than Sins Past/the Other?!
No. I do not want what you're smoking.

 

[Guybrush]

Has bad as The Other was, its still readable. The clone saga is flat out unreadable, I can't even finish one page without puking. Its quite obvious neither the writer nor the artist had any passion for the title. They were just doing their job, and it was awful. Not to mention Spectacular #226 is the worst issue in the history of man kind. I like DeFlaco and Buscema, but its quite obvious they worked on something they hated.

If you can bounce back from the clone saga, you can bounce back from anything.

 

[Sloth7d]

The Other was redeemable? Clone saga wasn't?
One saga had things back to normal in the end. The other( no pun intened) one left the hero with a pointless death, stingers and a magical spider god origin.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

okay, sloth, no need to get insulting or condescending by asking me what I'm smoking. This isn't "Citizen Kane" I just dissed. I'm *hardly* the only person around who thinks the Gathering of Five/Final Chapter was dreck that was so bad it made the eyes bleed. I've tried to delete most of it from my memory, but from what I do remember this story (a) invalidated perhaps the most touching Spider-Man story of all time by retconning ASM#400, because Harras thought it was necessary to bring back Aunt May and make her act as she was in the 60's... furthermore the May that DID die was a genetically altered actress... uh WHAT?! Oh, and she also has some weird virus-bomb thing implanted in her skull now. Now that would be enough to qualify this as worst Spider-Man story alone, but there's more...
(b) this Green Goblin/Spider-Man throwdown you talk about... WE NEVER SEE IT!!! It NEVER happens on-panel! What we see is Norman's fevered hallucination of him defeating Spider-Man. But he's mad from the Gathering so it's not real. That's why the end of one chapter has him unmasking Peter in front of the Bugle staff and killing him... and the next has him webbed up and spouting gibberish. Wow, guys... way to end the first volume of Spider-Man comics with a dream!
(c) After months of build-up indicating Peter's baby was alive... It's dumped like a fat blind-date. Kaine appears in one issue... but is "dealt with" off-panel. The May Peter believed to be alive was actually his Aunt May, not his baby... which would have atleast made sense unlike his geriatric Aunt. Wow, so that's what Alison Mongraine was wheeling out of the maternity ward in "Revelations." Talk about anti-climatic.
(d) Some other reasons I hated this storyline... It paved the way for the relaunch. It retconned the "Osborn Journal" (which was awesome). There was some bad guest-art in 'Gathering.' Dialogue was cringe-worthy. The act of Peter holding up the damaged Bugle was done better and was actually original 35 years prior, unlike this poor cliched rip-off. The five participants of the Gathering suuuuucked... Mattie Franklin, Madam Web... and who were the other two besides Norman? Does anyone even remember? I could go on and on about why this story sucked goat udder... but I really don't want to relive old traumas. But yeah... THAT'S what I'm smoking.

Now, if you still love that storyline more power to you. I know what it's like to like an unpopular storyline (being a clone-saga fan) but when someone tells me they don't like it I don't act like I'm shocked and ask them what they're smoking. Because frankly their argument might have some merits.

 

[Sloth7d]

Yeah, but you said it was worse than Sins Past and the other. I never usually knock peoples opinions unless it really seems pretty WTF ish. The flaws you name have nothing on retconning Spider-mans one true love into being a **** for the Green goblin, retconning his powers into a magical origin where Spider-gods dictate Peters powers, have him come down with a terminal disease then continue by not explaining it and in the end have him die a completely different way, giving him stingers, bringing back a non cared about villain and not explain his return just so he can go into a lack luster fight where somehow "he" of all the superstrenthened foes Spideys faced kills him after ripping his eye out, draw out said story with completely unessecary filler issues, give him a power boost but not really, ect. I'm sorry the other was terrible. Infact flat out garbage.And while Sins Past may only have one flaw, that one flaw is all it took for it to deviant loyal fans who have been reading Spider-man books since the 60's and would know Gwen Stacy would never do anything like that. Even if Gathering did have a anti-climax in your opinion, how could you really put it below such garbage as Sins Past and the Other is beyond me. But if thats your opinion you ARE intitled to it sdo I'll leave you be. You can't be surprised if it shocked me is all.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

The Other sucked, but it can be forgotten pretty easily, as can the Spider-God stuff once JMS leaves. All it takes is one retcon. I didn't like Sins Past because the premise of children growing at an accelerated pace is ludicrious (what, their mind matures that fast too?), not really the defiling of Gwen. I get she's like the Virgin Mary of the Spidey mythos, but I never really got what people saw in her. And when you ask people to explain what they loved about her, they usually can't. Yeah, "Sins Past" was a stupid story, but I stand by my assertion that GoF/Final Chapter was much worse and even more damaging. Atleast Gwen didn't come back from the grave.

Maybe we should have a poll asking people to vote on which story is worse! t:

It would be close. Final Chapter might lose just because almost a decade has passed and time makes people forget...

 

[Sloth7d]

I think there was a topic like that, but I don't feel like finding it.

 

[Galactus]

There are just too much "an event that will turn his life upside down" and "the world will never be the same" today. Not only in Spider-Man, but in Marvel comics in general. Every year there's another big event that's hyped up like a big summer blockbuster from Hollywood, and like those movies these events are crap or mediocre at best.

 

[HerosOnFilm]

It's a new era, new generation of Spider-man writers. Things definitely went south starting with all the clone crap.

I'll read an occasional Spidey comic or New Avengers if I'm at the bookstore, and honestly I have found Civil War rather interesting, but the whole identity thing I don't know how they will fix.

When Spidey and Wolverine are members of the Avengers, you know it's not the Marvel Universe you grew up with.

Considering all the great Spidey tales over the years, Sin-eater, Gangwar, Hobgoblin, Last Hunt, etc, etc....current arcs can't hold a candle to them.

 

[Guybrush]

I can't believe people actually arguing whats a worse retcon, Gwen and Norman passing home base or the Spider-Man people read for 20 years is not really Spider-Man. I mean putting all the crap on the world on Peter Parker is ok but god forbid someone mess with Gwen

I'll say the clone saga is by far the worst retcon in the history of Spider-Man, even if that retcon was eventually revoked. The real problem with the clone saga, is that it just drugged on and on, The Other was crap but at least it lasted 4 months and not 2.5 years. I understand some people liked the clone saga, but I personally wouldn't rate Sins Past nor The Other below it.

I actually take back what I said, The Other is actually not readable, the only scene I actually enjoyed is MJ jumping on Morlun, all the rest is pretty much crap. Clone saga is still worse tho.

 

[farmernudie]

I agree with the original poster's views.

However, i don't think Spidey comics are PAST THE POINT OF NO RETURN.

You can fix anything ...almost.

Marvel needs to have:

1.) Less frequent big events and life altering changes

2.) Story driven arches by someone who understands Spidey and his cast.....not THIS NEW WRITER AND THIS NEW OTHER GUY every year.

3.) No shock and awe (unmasking, etc..usually a part of a big event but not always...)

4.) Use characters in character with respect to their history/past

5.) Real World Consequences to chocices they write.

6.) Retcon all the dumb stories ideas that have gotten out of control int he past years.

7.) Don't create marriage controversy fixes/etc or other fake controversys that only end up ruining Spidey even more.

8.) Deal with the ramifications of good ideas written and follow up on them and don't forget about them.

 

[Dark Spidey]

"One More Day" will fix everything.

Have faith.

 

[shinlyle]

The only way books/characters are ever past "the point of no return" is if the fans give up on them. Runaways was on its way to cancellation, and the fans saved it. Spider-Girl has been saved every issue since issue 12. Spider-Man is the MOST beloved comic character ever (yes, I said it). So long as there are a constant influx of ideas and writers, it'll never end. I think, when the angry fans and readers become the creators (and this is possible), I think we'll get the stories we've yearned for.

When Q & Co. stop trying to shock and awe the readers, and just start relying on great storytelling and artwork, the books will be great again.

Also, they aren't that utterly horrible, now. ASM still sucks, but SSM and, to a lesser exent, FNSM are good reads. I hate the Unmasking, the Other, and DEFINITELY Sins Past, but those were all "shock" events....easily undone and fixed. I think, as soon as JMS is gone and ruining some other book/character, maybe we'll finally get a writer who respects continuity and wants to move forward, as opposed to re-writing the past....then the good times will return.

Still, I'd like for the good times to return sooner, as opposed to later.

 

[farmernudie]

I'd really like things to get better too.

Spidey IS the greatest character.

The only thing these big events and shocking storylines lead to is an overall backwards direction as we eventually go in circles (to retcon) and we end up making no real forward progress. They take us on these storylines for a year or so, that someone HAS to know will only lead to a retcon eventually....(although marvel makes big bucks with these life changing events-no matter how poorly they're written and how out of character they take their characters.)

It feels at times JQ and company have taken us on this long trip thru the briars and the deer poop, meandering thru the woods lost, when we could've taken a much better road and have actually gotten somewhere.

That's the feeling that stinks when i look back recently. And we've still not come out to the clearing yet.

JQ is still threatening to fix things more by ridding us of the (horrible??) marriage and MJ. Why remove one of the remaining strong supporting characters we DO have? And all of their history. To make Pete look young??? Sheesh...shave him and hand him a popcycle or somethin'.

Everyone grows up! Write about it! Sheesh!

So, we've been putting up with an awful lot of storylines that we have to sit thru (some will enjoy), while waiting for the retcon and then sit thru THAT and read that until things are semi-back to normal where maybe SOMEONE will come in with a respect for continuity and actually move us FORWARD at last. Spidey is a very popular character and very fixable.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Wow, we havent had a "the Spidey books suck and im leaving" thread around here in over a MONTH.

I guess we were about due, lol.

 

[DACrowe]

Well first I'd like to say Lizard/Kraven are far more interesting for SM4 than the Clone Saga. **** they're more interesting than Venom.

Anyway, I digress, when I said they retconned his supporting cast I meant how Flash's entire history with Pete has been "forgotten," and Pete/MJ haven't really brought it back and they're back to square 1 with Flash being a bully and a tool from the '60s. Liz went from a friend to someone who betrayed Pete and he turned his back on her and the only people he talks to now seems to be MJ and May, which isn't bad but there is no supporting cast.

 

[Robotchicken]

Well first I'd like to say Lizard/Kraven are far more interesting for SM4 than the Clone Saga. **** they're more interesting than Venom.

Anyway, I digress, when I said they retconned his supporting cast I meant how Flash's entire history with Pete has been "forgotten," and Pete/MJ haven't really brought it back and they're back to square 1 with Flash being a bully and a tool from the '60s. Liz went from a friend to someone who betrayed Pete and he turned his back on her and the only people he talks to now seems to be MJ and May, which isn't bad but there is no supporting cast.

kravens lame, lizards cool, venoms cool.....i just want lizard for 4...