Comics Should the mantle of Spidey be passed on?

[The Shadow]

Ok...

I haven't been on here for a while. I used to post here ALL the time back a few years ago and then I left for a while. I have checked in off and on over the last few years and then after the "Other" and "Iron Spidey" I got so depressed that I dropped all of the 616 Spidey books and only buy Ultimate now.

All of this talk of "fixing" Spider-Man now makes me laugh because it's coming from the SAME people that f***ed him up to begin with.

Even though I would love to see that whole "Spider-God, Other , Totem" crap be thrown out I shudder at the thought of what they would "correct" it with.

I don't see how the whole "Time Travel" solution could work in anyway without it causing major continuity problems with the rest of the MU either. Spider-Man has touched to many lives and to have it "localized" to just his book would eventually lead to Marvel's own "Crisis" storyline. Unless someone on here can explain to me HOW this would work without it effecting every other book in the MU and not as fans have us "ignore" certain contradictions is just impossible.

I've pushed for a long time that Marvel needed an entire reboot looooong before the Ultimate U. appeared. That should have been the case but instead they tried to "revamp" stuff with Onslaught, Heroes Reborn and HOM with limited success. Now their at it again to some degree with Civil War!

If they expect to fix Spider-Man and continue to dodge the complete reboot issue with the entire MU then the ONLY solution I can see is to have a completely new kid become Spider-Man.

I know what your thinking. They tried "replacing" him with himself in the Clone Saga and that didn't work. In hindsight I wish they had because this reworking of his powes and origin is total BS, but.....The reason it didn't work to most of us because they were trying to tell us that they Parker we knew for all these years was a lie which made all of us feel like giant dumba$$es.

Having Spidey replaced by a totally new character wouldn't really be like that and here's the scenerio I thought MIGHT work.

First of all Peter would have to retire, for good. He would have to loose his powers for good.....no coming back! IF his powers are now tied to magic in some way then the best possible solution for this would be to have the powers or whatever is going on to be some kind of curse like Dr. Strange mentioned before. After all was said and done the only way to save Peter would be to have Strange remove the curse which would make him normal forever....no going back. This might also lead to the ending we all saw when JMS gave us a peak at the future because how is it Peter get's overtaken by normal cops with the strength he now has???

After this Peter would be normal and probably teach full-time now. He would still miss being Spider-Man too. So I could see him again try to duplicate the accident without the "magic" angle this time around because Peter is a scientist and you can't keep a good scientist down! Anyway.....long story short. Peter in some way recreates the "bite" but instead of him getting the powers something happens, like an accident , and one of his students gets the powers.

New kid, old powers (with old webshooters) , new suit , new suporting cast, new family problems , no relation to the Parker's and Peter now becomes the mentor kind of like he was in Spider-Girl.

Seems like the only way to me to keep the timeline intact and fix the mess they've made of our hero.

If people would keep an open mind about this it MIGHT work.

Also, the only other Spider hero character allowed to exsist would be Spider-Women. That Areana' (sp?) chick needs to go. She could die during the storyline that sees Peter loose his powers.

Another thing this would solve would be the Mj factor. The new kid wouldn't be married! Peter and Mj could stay married and have a normal life and normal kids. No mutants! The only connection Peter would have to Spidey is through his mentoring plus the occasional adventuring with the new Spidey.

And for the people that say Peter is the one and only Spider-Man. I understand your thinking and I agree but 616 Spidey needs some new blood and we would all have Pete as Spidey in the Ultimate books and the movies.

Lets' face it. It's time for something like this. We've all been fighting this for years and look where the character is now.

What do you think?

 

[Rez]

...I, personally, like it- but it's Ben Reilly- It didn't work out before, it won't work out now.

Had they kept Ben as Spiderman this would be the EXACT same outcome as the one you have described- Peter and MJ together, him not being Spiderman but being a mentor and companion to a single, carefree Ben who has a new supporting cast.

I like it, but the writers didn't, and half the comic buying public didn't. So, for better or worse, we are having Peter as the one and only Spiderman.

 

[The Shadow]

...I, personally, like it- but it's Ben Reilly- It didn't work out before, it won't work out now.

Had they kept Ben as Spiderman this would be the EXACT same outcome as the one you have described- Peter and MJ together, him not being Spiderman but being a mentor and companion to a single, carefree Ben who has a new supporting cast.

I like it, but the writers didn't, and half the comic buying public didn't. So, for better or worse, we are having Peter as the one and only Spiderman.

In a broader sense, yes , it is the same situation.

The problem with the Ben-Peter thing was that they were both actually Peter Parker. The only difference there was that one was "Present Day Peter and the other was "70's Peter Parker" in a sense.

If they would have followed through with the ORIGINAL plan which was to have Peter die and Ben take back his name and the Spidey I.D and then have him single again I would have supported that 100%. I wouldn't have supported keeping Peter around powerless in that scenerio because Ben and Peter were the same man.

Having Peter loose his powers for good and mentor a younger kid that has no ties to him except maybe being a student is not totally the same thing. You don't have "double" characters with differnt hair colors running around together.

I can't even imagine how the Time Travel plot would or could even work, there's to much that ties into Spidey that would be effected. That goes the same for the Beyonder and Scarlet Witch scenerio. Any of these effect the bigger picture no matter how you cut it.

I think to the reader and the older fans messing with the timeline is no different than saying Ben was Peter there during the Clone Saga. Either way your saying that our Spidey didn't actually experience certain stories! Now how is that acceptable?

The only other alternative I can see is saying that our Spidey did die in the "Other" and this new Spidey is actually bad. Then you could use the Time Travel angle and pull a younger Spidey from the past to come stop this bad guy or they send MJ back to save Peter from the "curse" that caused the whole Other / Spider-God mess and in the process she alters a few things in the past which causes her to disapear and the timeline to alter to where her and Peter never got married. This could be the current Mj's sacrifice to save the man she loves because he's always saved her before.

I know these guys look at these boards and I know their looking for a way out of all of this. MAYBE if more ideas were thrown about this might set them on the right path.

I personally like Time Travel stories but I don't think it can work in Spidey's case. If I were in charge I'd seriously consider what I suggested in my first post. At least in that scenerio no one really looses and their isn't any Clone nonsense involved. It's a fresh start with a new kid with new problems and the Peter Parker we all know and love is there and he isn't dealing with the crap they put him through lately.

Like I said before. Something like this needs to be done and it needs to stick unless you want them to just reboot the character from the start. If that's the case just end 616 Spidey and we can all read Ultimate Spidey!

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

In the only two cases for comparison this idea has failed, in one way or another.

Ben Reilly: As Rez said, even replacing Peter with a single version of himself did not work. There's also the question of whether or not the writers would have stuck to that template over time. Would Ben and Liz be getting serious and engaged around 2015? We'll never know.

Spider-Girl: If May's adventures are any indication of how a book would sell if Spidey had retired and someone else took the reigns.. the outlook isn't promising. It didn't even seem to matter that Spider-Girl was a great book, contained Pete, MJ, and assorted others from the supporting cast, etc. It could never get off the ground as far as sales are concerned. If they made a story like this one the mainstream Spider-Man story, "no turning back" it would likely explode in their faces just as "Ben is Pete" did.

 

[Dragon]

The problem is, that people don't want to merely read about Spider-Man. They want to read about Peter Parker, a guy who happens to be Spider-Man. I've said it before Stan & Steve captured lightning in a bottle on that one.

They have on the one hand a great superhero, with exciting abilities, a fantastic costume design, and probably the best overall rogues gallery ever. But at the same time, they have a great alter ego character in Peter Parker, who also has (had) a terrific supporting cast.

We're not looking for someone simply wearing the costume. We want the entire package.

 

[onceasaint]

The problem is, that people don't want to merely read about Spider-Man. They want to read about Peter Parker, a guy who happens to be Spider-Man. I've said it before Stan & Steve captured lightning in a bottle on that one.

They have on the one hand a great superhero, with exciting abilities, a fantastic costume design, and probably the best overall rogues gallery ever. But at the same time, they have a great alter ego character in Peter Parker, who also has (had) a terrific supporting cast.

We're not looking for someone simply wearing the costume. We want the entire package.

That was well said.

I was going to write up something here but you said it better than I could have.

 

[The Shadow]

In the only two cases for comparison this idea has failed, in one way or another.

Ben Reilly: As Rez said, even replacing Peter with a single version of himself did not work. There's also the question of whether or not the writers would have stuck to that template over time. Would Ben and Liz be getting serious and engaged around 2015? We'll never know.

Spider-Girl: If May's adventures are any indication of how a book would sell if Spidey had retired and someone else took the reigns.. the outlook isn't promising. It didn't even seem to matter that Spider-Girl was a great book, contained Pete, MJ, and assorted others from the supporting cast, etc. It could never get off the ground as far as sales are concerned. If they made a story like this one the mainstream Spider-Man story, "no turning back" it would likely explode in their faces just as "Ben is Pete" did.

Well, like I said above. The reason Ben didn't work was because A) they replaced Peter with PETER! B) they had lousy writers. c) the fans were already ticked that they were saying our current Spidey was a fake! IF people hadn't gotten so bent out of shape over the switch to begin with then it might have worked if they hadn't backtracked. You've got to follow the chain of events that lead to why things went the way the did.

Comparing this to Spider-Girl is also not the same. First of all there aren't to many female characters on the market that sell well to begin with. The majority of the readers are guys. Other than oogling the skimpy outfits these character wear they don't hold the same intrest as the male heroes do and they don't sell as well. Spider-Girl was a good book and it deserved the life it had. I however I never said we'd replace Peter with a female character. I even said the only other Spider based hero left besides Spidey would be Spider-Woman.

The only reason this would "explode" in Marvel's face would be because of the fans.

Looking at this from the publishers view point, What the he11 are they supposed to do? They've basically painted themselves into a corner with this character. How do they fix this when all the fans do is complain about how their going to change this to fix that. It's a no win scenerio.

Granted, I personally don't feel to sorry for them because a lot of the mistakes have been made because of simple greed. One big event after another with changes they were only making for shock value. I can only use the quality of the story arcs to get a "idea" of how much they cared about the character during these changes and to me it doesn't seem like very much. The hoopla over the changes and the intial sell outs were the only thing they were focusing on. I doubt if even any of them had an long term plans for the character after the changes. It was "Hey, this sounds cool, let's do that" type of thing.

I believe the fans have to take responsibilty for this mess also. If it wasn't for the constant whining about one thing or another we wouldn't be in this mess. Don't any of you realize all of the mixed signals that sends to the publisher? You want this and then you don't. You say you'd like to see that and then they do it and then you turn around and say it sucks. If Marvel was a girl you were trying to date you'd have scared her off by now! She would think your nuts!

Their never going to please everyone. I do believe though they could please at least 80% of us if we as a fan base could come together with ONE clear cohesive idea to send to them.

So, what else? How do we fix Spidey without Time Travel, Magic or Replacing him?

I would like to know as I'm sure Marvel would too!

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

The problem is, that people don't want to merely read about Spider-Man. They want to read about Peter Parker, a guy who happens to be Spider-Man. I've said it before Stan & Steve captured lightning in a bottle on that one.

They have on the one hand a great superhero, with exciting abilities, a fantastic costume design, and probably the best overall rogues gallery ever. But at the same time, they have a great alter ego character in Peter Parker, who also has (had) a terrific supporting cast.

We're not looking for someone simply wearing the costume. We want the entire package.

I completely agree with Dragon here. I don't read Spider-Man comics simply because I like cool stories with characters climbing walls. I want to follow the exploits of boy whose Uncle could have lived, but didn't. Who takes on master planners and rich tyrants while worrying about being late for class or how he'll pay his [or his aunt's] bills. There's room in the world for Spider-Girls and Batman Beyonds, etc., but there will always be mainstream books about Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker being Batman and Spider-Man.

The only problem Spider-Man faces that Superman and Batman don't.. is that the latter were created as adult men with their settings and place in life set. Spider-Man was created as a teen and Lee dared to actually let him progress. Other writers also dared to allow him to experience death and great tragedy outside of his origin story. This created different "phases" in Spider-Man's life in which he and the tone of his books shifted, sometimes drastically.

Now, years later, editors, writers and fans look back at great eras in his history and want to get back to what Spidey is really about. The problem is, there are 3 or 4 different eras to choose from. It's easiest to fall back on the Lee-Ditko/Lee-Romita era, but that is the furthest from the reality that exists in the book today, and would undo stories that impacted the entire medium.

The best thing that can be done, in my opinion, is to take the elements of the character that are timeless, and are the first to be pushed into any new version of the character [power and responsibility, determination against incredible odds, humor in the face of danger], and build engaging stories around those themes -- starring Peter Parker and his current problems in life.

Is Peter too old or too married to be driven by Ben Parker's loss? To refuse to knuckle under to forces greater than himself? [Whether in number or influence]. To be concerned about his personal life as he dances with mortal danger hundreds of stories over Manhattan? I once learned that happiness is appreciating what you have, and making the best of it. Whereas unhappiness is overly appreciating what you don't have. Creators are so busy obsessing over what Spider-Man is not, and with saving him from what he is -- that they are creating problems much worse than Peter Parker being married or older.

A final note, as Gregatron points out the aging does have to stop now. Peter is a man at this point, like his fictional peers Superman and Batman. All the elements are in place and therefore there is no need to continue the progession Stan Lee started. He wanted Peter to develop and he has.
Now we just need to see him deal with life's challenges and choices.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

If Marvel never declared Ben th' REAL Peter Parker, he would've had a much longer life, guaranteed.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

The only reason this would "explode" in Marvel's face would be because of the fans.

And that's the whole point, Shadow. There is a consumer market that is interested in not only Spider-Man products, but Peter Parker products. In the history of the comics, Spider-Man has traditionally been the icon whose alter ego was the dominant, driving force of mythos. Peter Parker was always present, in thought balloons, etc., as Spider-Man duked it out with his foes.

If the situation is: "All we need is for the fans to accept it.", then we don't have to break our necks thinking of anything intricate or even entertaining. We just need some magical way for the fans to accept it.
The problem is that guys like me and many other Spider-Man fans are not going to accept it. For one, we don't feel it necessary to bring in a new 16 year old every 45 years. Also, there is no separation in our minds between the personage of Peter Parker and Spider-Man. It's not a title
or set of abilities that can be passed on to anybody as long as they do the right thing with them.
Spider-Man is the outward expression of the guilt, heroism, determination and overall psyche of a particular man.

Many people loved Ben Reilly. Heck, I hated him as Spider-Man as much or more than anyone on these forums, but I liked the character. Do you honestly believe that people would accept a new character, likely created by JMS or Quesada, as widely as people accepted Ben Reilly, who was created by concepts derived from Stan Lee and Steve Ditko?

 

[The Shadow]

The problem is, that people don't want to merely read about Spider-Man. They want to read about Peter Parker, a guy who happens to be Spider-Man. I've said it before Stan & Steve captured lightning in a bottle on that one.

They have on the one hand a great superhero, with exciting abilities, a fantastic costume design, and probably the best overall rogues gallery ever. But at the same time, they have a great alter ego character in Peter Parker, who also has (had) a terrific supporting cast.

We're not looking for someone simply wearing the costume. We want the entire package.

Don't get me wrong. I'm with you. I love Peter Parker just a much as Spidey. I personally believe Batman = Bruce Wayne, Superman = Clark Kent and Spidey should = Peter Parker.

The problem is we do have two Peter Parkers. Ultimate Spidey / Peter and 616 Spidey Peter. As far as I'm concerned Ultmate Spidey isn't the problem and Marvel isn't having problems with his fanbase! It's 616 Spidey that's in trouble and he's headed for quite a big fall if someone doesn't catch him!

I was trying to offer a non reality altering solution to the problem. Any other suggestions I've read lead to even bigger problems in the long run.

All I see in my minds eye are people acting like my little 4 yr old sitting there with his arms crossed throwing a fit telling me "No, it's got to be this way or nothing" Now how can business deal with that type of mentality?

I love the old stories. I love Stan and Steve's work. I respect the character and his history. I miss the old Spidey like the rest of you. Lately I really miss seeing him being single. I miss the mech. webshooters. I REALLY miss the original origin. I miss seeing his old supporting cast and the older villians, except Goblin!

If there was a way to get this back with Peter as Spidey and not have Mj die or him divorce her I would certainly LOVE to hear it. I would also LOVE to hear a way to fix the "Other" nonsense and completely erase him "dying" without a simple retcon!

On the current path the character is now I can see them "outing" him during Civil War. I can see MJ getting killed because of this. I can see HOM Gwen somehow showing up in this reality as a "gift" to Spidey from the Scarlet Witch!

I don't want to see any of that though, do you? Do any of you really want them using Time Travel to erase everything wrong? You know once they do that people are going to complain and new problems would rear their ugly head.

If someone can come up with a coherant plot that gets "Old Spidey" back and doesn't damage any of the good things that have happend to him then I'm all for it.

 

[The Shadow]

The problem is that guys like me and many other Spider-Man fans are not going to accept it. For one, we don't feel it necessary to bring in a new 16 year old every 45 years. Also, there is no separation in our minds between the personage of Peter Parker and Spider-Man. It's not a title or set of abilities that can be passed on to anybody as long as they do the right thing with them.
Spider-Man is the outward expression of the guilt, heroism, determination and overall psyche of a particular man.

Actually, the problem is that this "market" doesn't really have any new "blood" coming in to replace the aging fan base. Why do you think Marvel created the Ultimate Spidey.

Anytime I go to the comic book store anymore all I see are guys in there middle 20's to learly 30's shopping. I think I've maybe seen one or two 8 year olds in there since I started collecting and they were buying stuff for a card game!!

I don't have any problem with what you posted above. Your definition of Spider-Man is mine. However, the current state Spidey is in as far as life and powers go is total crap.

All I wanted to do was to suggest an alternative change to the other scenerios involving monsterous mistakes like Time Travel or something else.

It's quite clear nothing is acceptable but at the same time no one is offering a actual solution to the situation in the books. All I'm hearing is that "We are all long time fans and this is why this won't work"

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Actually, the problem is that this "market" doesn't really have any new "blood" coming in to replace the aging fan base. Why do you think Marvel created the Ultimate Spidey.

Anytime I go to the comic book store anymore all I see are guys in there middle 20's to learly 30's shopping. I think I've maybe seen one or two 8 year olds in there since I started collecting and they were buying stuff for a card game!!

I don't have any problem with what you posted above. Your definition of Spider-Man is mine. However, the current state Spidey is in as far as life and powers go is total crap.

All I wanted to do was to suggest an alternative change to the other scenerios involving monsterous mistakes like Time Travel or something else.

It's quite clear nothing is acceptable but at the same time no one is offering a actual solution to the situation in the books. All I'm hearing is that "We are all long time fans and this is why this won't work"

Shadow, you set a very high standard in your above post.

If someone can come up with a coherant plot that gets "Old Spidey" back and doesn't damage any of the good things that have happend to him then I'm all for it.

Not even the your idea gets the "Old Spidey" back because it would be creating a new Spidey. I don't mean for it to seem that I'm coming down on your idea, I was simply pointing out why it won't work on a practical level. Even the new fans that are brought in by the movies expect Spider-Man to be Peter Parker if they pick up a mainstream Spidey book. It's a bigger problem than the fact that many readers are in their 20s, like myself.

I appreciate the fact that you put time and effort into formulating an idea to apply to the problem, and no, I have not taken the time to sit and ponder how I would restore Spider-Man thematically and conceptually without undoing his rich history. When I have time, perhaps I should. However, we're on the same page here. We both want to see the current Spider-Man books be true to his character and not take him further down the disastrous road he is on.

I don't think its impossible restore Spider-Man. In the meantime, it would help if today's creators focused on stories true to Spidey's core attributes and concepts and stopped building event upon event and gimmick on top of gimmick.

 

[The Shadow]

Shadow, you set a very high standard in your above post.



Not even the your idea gets the "Old Spidey" back because it would be creating a new Spidey. I don't mean for it to seem that I'm coming down on your idea, I was simply pointing out why it won't work on a practical level. Even the new fans that are brought in by the movies expect Spider-Man to be Peter Parker if they pick up a mainstream Spidey book. It's a bigger problem than the fact that many readers are in their 20s, like myself.

I appreciate the fact that you put time and effort into formulating an idea to apply to the problem, and no, I have not taken the time to sit and ponder how I would restore Spider-Man thematically and conceptually without undoing his rich history. When I have time, perhaps I should. However, we're on the same page here. We both want to see the current Spider-Man books be true to his character and not take him further down the disastrous road he is on.

I don't think its impossible restore Spider-Man. In the meantime, it would help if today's creators focused on stories true to Spidey's core attributes and concepts and stopped building event upon event and gimmick on top of gimmick.

Well, my "idea" for a fix in my original post wasn't supposed to restore "Old Time Spidey" but it did have the potential to introduce new villains, new romantic interests and maybe rekindle the spirit of the original stories and it did retain Peter in the books without screwing with history or wiping away the fact that he DID marry Mj.

You guys know as well as I do from Joe Q's comments a few says ago there is a storm brewing over this characters head and it scares the crap out of me what their going to do next.

If they keep Peter and revise history then what next? Seeing that we've now been with him through just about everything a character can experience how do we not go back to just repeating the same things we saw years ago?

And as far as I can tell the Time Travel rumor can't undo the "Other" stuff either.

The two biggest problems I see facing the character at the moment, are..

1) The lousy, unimaginative , boring writing with NO regards for continuity that's occuring.

and...

2) A fan base that's not willing to bend just a little to help the situation.


I'm all for keeping Peter as Spidey. I even want the old powers and webshooters back but if a logical solution can be brought forth without further problems down the road I'm willing to try a different route....even if that means changing who Spider-Man is! I'd rather see the concept be carried on rather than see both Peter and Spidey languish in creative He11 for the rest of my life!!!

I'm looking forward to seeing Loeb and Campbell on Spidey next year. I want to see them writing and drawing Peter / Spidey. What I don't want to see is them having to deal with the character in his current messed up state. Spidey with his "Other" powers possibly unmasked from the Civil War and Mj dead!

Wow, sounds like fun to me!

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Well, my "idea" for a fix in my original post wasn't supposed to restore "Old Time Spidey" but it did have the potential to introduce new villains, new romantic interests and maybe rekindle the spirit of the original stories and it did retain Peter in the books without screwing with history or wiping away the fact that he DID marry Mj.

You guys know as well as I do from Joe Q's comments a few says ago there is a storm brewing over this characters head and it scares the crap out of me what their going to do next.

If they keep Peter and revise history then what next? Seeing that we've now been with him through just about everything a character can experience how do we not go back to just repeating the same things we saw years ago?

And as far as I can tell the Time Travel rumor can't undo the "Other" stuff either.

The two biggest problems I see facing the character at the moment, are..

1) The lousy, unimaginative , boring writing with NO regards for continuity that's occuring.

and...

2) A fan base that's not willing to bend just a little to help the situation.

Alright, my friend. I have a question for you. Why is Spider-Man [Peter Parker] so different that enjoyable stories cannot continue for him for 70 years, or 100 years? Superman has been around decades longer. Batman is still winning contests over at IGN. Why can't Peter Parker's problems be cured with good, true to the character writing like all other comic icons?

What I don't want to see is them having to deal with the character in his current messed up state. Spidey with his "Other" powers possibly unmasked from the Civil War and Mj dead!

Wow, sounds like fun to me!

Shadow, those were not inevitable outcomes. These are stories they chose and are choosing to tell. Some act as if Peter Parker being anything other than 17, in high school and dating Gwen & MJ simultaneously means that he must die, transform into a mystic being, be a clone, unmask on CNN, etc. That's ridiculous. It's a false argument from Marvel and an attempt to throw off responsibilty for creating most of the problems they witch, moan and whine about incessantly.

 

[The Shadow]

Alright, my friend. I have a question for you. Why is Spider-Man [Peter Parker] so different that enjoyable stories cannot continue for him for 70 years, or 100 years? Superman has been around decades longer. Batman is still winning contests over at IGN. Why can't Peter Parker's problems be cured with good, true to the character writing like all other comic icons?

Your overlooking the fact that DC has rebooted these characters several times to erase mistakes that were made and update the characters without switching who they were. I don't see anyone here offering to except that as a solution to the mess. If people are willing to except that and keep Peter then fine I'll go along with that.

What has happend to this character over the last decade and even several months is beyond simply writing better stories. I can't pickup any of the regular books without seeing every crappy thing they've done flash through my head.

If they want to reboot it and throw out all the good with the bad, fine , that's their call. I'd rather see a good story with a normal solution that doesn't involve wiping out the history but instead just something that firmly resolves certain problems and moves forward.

Shadow, those were not inevitable outcomes. These are stories they chose and are choosing to tell. Some act as if Peter Parker being anything other than 17, in high school and dating Gwen, MJ simultaneously means that he must die, transform into a mystic being, be a clone, unmask on CNN, etc. That's ridiculous. It's a false argument from Marvel and an attempt to throw of responsibilty for creating most of the problems they witch, moan and whine about incessantly.

Chalk it up to being tired but I don't really know where your going with this.

I personally don't believe Peter OR Spidey have to be a kid to tell good stories. I like the age he's at now and like someone said above, keep him at this age. Just because I suggested Peter would mentor a teen doesn't mean the teen has to act the exact same way Spidey is portrayed in Ultimate Spidey with the teen Peter Parker.

If they had Peter young in the regular books there would be no point in having Ultimate around.

I personally can't just overlook everything and have them "forget" what has happened. Now how odd would that be if we just picked up the next issue of the book and there Peter is with the old webshooters and no mention of the new powers or what's happened before. I don't know about you but that's just stupid. What's the point of even having any continuity then? I don't care how well written this would be. Heck, they've even tried that with the Clone Saga. As a Ben Reilly fan I kind of felt cheated that they hardly mention him now because he was like a brother to Peter.

I don't deny Marvel is to blame for most of this but the fans have their hands in it to.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

What has happend to this character over the last decade and even several months is beyond simply writing better stories. I can't pickup any of the regular books without seeing every crappy thing they've done flash through my head.

Well, that's where the "fans have to be flexible." If Marvel were willing to scrap the nonsense of the last few years without erasing the major aspects of Spidey's history, and continue with good writing and proper characterization, I'd be flexible enough to live that.

The new fans would have no clue that anything happened, anyway. [You'd see "Hey, who is Morlun" posts in the future just as you see "Hey who is Kaine" posts today]. The same thing happened with the Clone Saga, as much as I hate to bring it up due to its divisive nature. They scrapped it, and began publishing good Spider-Man stories for a time [remember, people actually liked JMS at one point] and we moved on with our lives.

I think ours is simply a disagreement about fiction in general. There's nothing that bad writing can produce that very good and creative writing can't fix. It just takes greater effort.

In the case of the Superman/Batman reboots, practically nothing major about them changed, conceptually. Batman is happier. Superman is more down to Earth. The major changes in those characters' lives [Superman's "death" and Batman's paralysis] happened outside of reboots.

Chalk it up to being tired but I don't really know where your going with this.

It's just as I said. There exists a belief, generally among Marvel staff, that if Peter is not a young bachelor he has to undergo radical changes in an attempt to relive bygone eras.

I personally can't just overlook everything and have them "forget" what has happened. Now how odd would that be if we just picked up the next issue of the book and there Peter is with the old webshooters and no mention of the new powers or what's happened before. I don't know about you but that's just stupid. What's the point of even having any continuity then? I don't care how well written this would be. Heck, they've even tried that with the Clone Saga. As a Ben Reilly fan I kind of felt cheated that they hardly mention him now because he was like a brother to Peter.

We all have our issues. You can't overlook a retcon of the last few years. I'm not interested in buying and reading about a new Spider-Man.

I don't deny Marvel is to blame for most of this but the fans have their hands in it to.

Just realize one point. We can be happy, angry or indifferent about what Marvel editorial does, but only what they choose to publish goes to print. Marvel acts and we react. That's the nature of the relationship. If displeasure with a consumer product puts so much pressure on a publisher
that they're no longer able to produce a good product, then they're in the wrong line of work.

I don't blame anyone for not liking a story they've read. For example, people who wish Ben remained Spidey. That's simply how they felt, no harm done, and no fan should feel guilty about
disliking a turn of events.

 

[Rez]

Now, years later, editors, writers and fans look back at great eras in his history and want to get back to what Spidey is really about. The problem is, there are 3 or 4 different eras to choose from. It's easiest to fall back on the Lee-Ditko/Lee-Romita era, but that is the furthest from the reality that exists in the book today, and would undo stories that impacted the entire medium.

First off, let me say that you are my hero. That entire post is by far one of the best posts I've ever read on this entire board.

I agree with almost everything you say, 110%. That doesn't happen often with me.

What you said above points out the problem we are facing. The great divide in fandom.

Those that wanted Peter to never age, and are still clamoring for a halt.
And those that like and enjoy seeing an aging, evolving superhero.

The problem is we've never had someone juggle it so well. Spiderman is as timeless as Batman or Superman, but Spiderman is the one aging.

He's aging the way a replacable hero ages, the way Green Latern is evolved. This initial post brings up Spiderman being replaced. Should Spiderman continue to age, continue to evolve, it is only a matter of time before such a replacement must occur.

And yet even with all his evolving, all his change, he is the same person. Yes, there are some missteps in writing his charecter here and there, but he is most definately the same person. The same way Bruce Wayne is the same person.

And thus, the problem.

Comics as a whole are not viewed as linear stories. They are just kind of expected to go on and on, perhaps forever. Expectations. It's a problem with the style of the medium. We don't expect a film to go longer than 2 or 3 hours. We don't expect a novel to go on for thousands upon thousands upon millions of pages. Sequels and series come and go, until eventually a creator wraps it up or dies. But comics are different. The same charecters are passed from writer to writer, artist to artist, story to story. Forever. They are, by definition, timeless.
And yet they haven't been around forever. In fact, they are, behind electronic games, the newest form of media out there.

There are of course some grounded stories. Graphic Novels, or mini series, we like to call them. The ones collected in trade paperbacks. The ones that only lasted 6 or 12 issues. Or the occassional long, planned out storyline, like 100 Bullets, destined for 100 issues. The stories that have charecters that start out and grow and reach a point and end. The stories with a clear beginning, middle and end. The stories in comics that are much like the stories in movies and books. Linear.

So what is to happen with Spiderman? The aging timeless charecter? This pioneer, not exclusive to but rooted in his own medium?
We may not be at that point yet, but it is a point that is always looming on the horizon. It is a point that is affecting the stories now. People writing up stories that are deeply rooted in the past of the charecter. There is a fear of moving forward. There are questions of moving forward.

Spiderman IS a charecter with different eras. He has grown. He has evolved. He has aged. Are we to suddenly stop this growth? Are we to move him from being a hybrid of the comic archetypes- those that are static, and those that grow- to being just one? Should we feed off the stories of the past, or push into the stories of the future? One leads to maturity. Old Age. A Spiderman facing arthritis. Passing the mantle on. Perhaps being a father, perhaps being a mentor. Death. These are places where our evolving charecter is headed, eventually. Not right away, no. But given his system of growth, it should happen eventually.

Or do we stop? Do we keep him where he is now, or where he has been in the past? Some would think so.
When you look at it, the only growth and change the charecter has faced in the last several years has been met with hostility. It's not necessarly because the stories were bad, they were just ill received. JMS's arcs up through The Book Of Ezekiel. The introduction of a possible mystic origin? That is different. That is growth. And yet it is widely frowned upon.

So we are at a bad place. A crossroads, where a decision must be made. Is Spiderman destined to live on as a hamster in a wheel, driving in circles, not relying much on continuity, just keeping him the same age and the same charecter for all time? Do we make him the Batman? The Superman? Do we solidify him as a nonlinear charecter, one with no end in sight?
Or do we continue to evolve him? To let him grow? And to someday, replace him? Do we one day, end his story?

I'm sorry if this all came out a little rushed and desperate.

It is.

 

[The Shadow]

You guys can sit here for the millionth time and wax poetically on how great the character is but I still don't hear a solution to the problem.

The best I've gotten is "better writing".....Well, yeah...That would help any book in trouble.

Instead of everyone sitting around thinking of things to b*tch about I want to know how you would handle this if you were hired by Marvel to fix the character?

I've offered "A" solution. It's not the best one but it also doesn't avoid or forget anything that's happened regardless of how I personally feel.

I can also go either way on the whole Mj thing too. If you want them to stay together then fine. If you want Pete single that's cool to.

I want to see someone come in here and write down how we get Peter back to the way we all know and love him.

If there's not anything wrong with Spidey then this board would be pretty much empty.

 

[SouLeSS]

I skimmed through the first post. Then I realized that he was basically talking about Batman Beyond, only with Spiderman.

And I liked it.

 

[LarryLegend]

I didn't like it. Spider-Man is Peter Parker, period.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Its a great idea. Batman Beyond proved Batman could retire....problem is you'd never make it stick in the comic world.

 

[The Shadow]

I'm not looking for a fight over "If Peter should or shouldn't be Spider-Man?" I'm looking for a way out of this mess to restore the book to what he started out at.

My solution was only one path to take if all others failed. Yeah, in a way it is the same basic premise behind Batman Beyond but your not going to get the same type of stories because these characters are like night and day.

I really thought they (Marvel) had learned from the mistakes made with the Clone Saga and there for a while I thought we had turned a point with the character where I thought they'd get back to what made him great. I saw JMS as sign that Marvel was trying to do the right thing, but..... It couldn't be further from the truth. For some reason they had to go back to one shocking twist after another which leads us to this. Now there are "hints" that even further changes are in store for him during this Civil War crossover.

And on top of that Joe Q comes out and says he can't stand the marriage?!?!

So where does this end?

If we as fans don't offer some kind of a solution to this mess that we'd accept then how are they to get a handle on what we are thinking? If all they see are people complaining their going to just go do what they "think" we want.

Here's another "idea" I had that wouldn't involve anything really that would warp continuity and might get things back to where the majority of us would be happy.

Peter is outed during the Civil War by another hero who knows who he is. Mj and May become targets right away for every villain he's ever faced. In an attack Mj is seriously injured or posioned (take your pick) while trying to save May. Mj is either put into suspended animation (like Betty Ross in the Hulk book) OR ends up in a deep coma. Peter and Mj never split up. Peter however is now "single" after an acceptable period of grieving. Mj is not dead and she does go "out" a hero.

Peter learns after the Civil War that the changes he's gone through are a curse. Some new villain behind Morlun and all of the "totem" stuff appears. The situation is finally resolved with the help of Dr. Strange. Peter appears to loose his powers. Through a series of events that unfolds Peter uses this to prove that he was never Spider-Man and that he was set-up to try and protect May and his friends. Another hero helps Peter out by appearing in public as Spider-Man. During or shortly after this Peter's original powers come back because of the curse being "lifted". The original origin of his powers turns out to be true after all. Peter even looses the "organic shooters" and goes back to the old mech. shooters. Because of being outed as Spidey during the Civil War Peter looses his job as a teacher. Ironically after all is said and done Jonah, feeling guilty for how he treated Peter during the Civil War, gives Peter a job at the Bugle as senior photographer.

 

[Geko]

...
Peter is outed during the Civil War by another hero who knows who he is. Mj and May become targets right away for every villain he's ever faced. In an attack Mj is seriously injured or posioned (take your pick) while trying to save May. Mj is either put into suspended animation (like Betty Ross in the Hulk book) OR ends up in a deep coma. Peter and Mj never split up. Peter however is now "single" after an acceptable period of grieving. Mj is not dead and she does go "out" a hero.

Peter learns after the Civil War that the changes he's gone through are a curse. Some new villain behind Morlun and all of the "totem" stuff appears. The situation is finally resolved with the help of Dr. Strange. Peter appears to loose his powers. Through a series of events that unfolds Peter uses this to prove that he was never Spider-Man and that he was set-up to try and protect May and his friends. Another hero helps Peter out by appearing in public as Spider-Man. During or shortly after this Peter's original powers come back because of the curse being "lifted". The original origin of his powers turns out to be true after all. Peter even looses the "organic shooters" and goes back to the old mech. shooters. Because of being outed as Spidey during the Civil War Peter looses his job as a teacher. Ironically after all is said and done Jonah, feeling guilty for how he treated Peter during the Civil War, gives Peter a job at the Bugle as senior photographer.

I like this idea better, but I think it's still too "this will change EVERYTHING!!" I think restoring the character means a return to more simple storytelling. While I know Peter will probably be outed during Civil War, I'd rather this not happen, besides, JJJ would NEVER hire Peter back if he knew he was actually Spidey, and I would love to see Peter back at the Bugle. So, Civil War doesn't unmask Spidey, and no MJ coma either. She isn't a problem. Hire a writer who can write relationships. What Civil War does do however is make the Avengers a government run team, so Spidey quits. Then he goes off with the Beyonder and due to the time away, he gets fired from his teaching job. He can go back to the Bugle without excuses. Furthermore, he and MJ need a new place, so they rent a place from either JJ or Felicia, either would add some fun tension. I like the idea of the 'Other' changes being a curse, but let Strange lift it without Peter losing all his powers. He can just lose the stingers and the organic webs if everone hates them so much. Me, I don't care, organics or not, it's cool with me.
So, no substitue Spidey, Peter just goes out the next day and carries on, just like he used to.
Then he can fight the Vulture and kick his butt in one issue.

 

[The Shadow]

I like this idea better, but I think it's still too "this will change EVERYTHING!!" I think restoring the character means a return to more simple storytelling. While I know Peter will probably be outed during Civil War, I'd rather this not happen, besides, JJJ would NEVER hire Peter back if he knew he was actually Spidey, and I would love to see Peter back at the Bugle. So, Civil War doesn't unmask Spidey, and no MJ coma either. She isn't a problem. Hire a writer who can write relationships. What Civil War does do however is make the Avengers a government run team, so Spidey quits. Then he goes off with the Beyonder and due to the time away, he gets fired from his teaching job. He can go back to the Bugle without excuses. Furthermore, he and MJ need a new place, so they rent a place from either JJ or Felicia, either would add some fun tension. I like the idea of the 'Other' changes being a curse, but let Strange lift it without Peter losing all his powers. He can just lose the stingers and the organic webs if everone hates them so much. Me, I don't care, organics or not, it's cool with me.
So, no substitue Spidey, Peter just goes out the next day and carries on, just like he used to.
Then he can fight the Vulture and kick his butt in one issue.

Well, JJ would IF everything I posted above went that way because Peter would have proven to the world he ISN'T Spidey.

I'm getting to many signals from different sources that this "unmasking" may occur. If Peter does it himself then my idea would have to be re-worked but the basic premise could still work.

Peter wouldn't "loose" his powers. It'd take a while for the original powers to kick back in because of the spell. This would allow him the time to prove to everyone he's just a normal guy. His powers have came and went before so this is nothing new.

You do know that if he's "outed" and then tries to recover his secret I.D people are going to want physical proof.

I don't see why logically if he is unmasked why he'd ever wear the suit again? Unless they pull something similar to the way he was portrayed in HOM.

As far as MJ goes, that "idea" was more or less for Marvel. It gives them a way to make Peter "single" without resorting to messing with time, killing her or they divorce. It at least gives her a chance to return and it makes her a hero if they'd use my idea. I know she's left before but this would be different because Peter would know where she was at and there wouldn't be any mystery to it.

JJ would hire Peter back out of guilt. If he believes that Peter was truely set-up by the real Spider-Man or something along those lines.

Simply continuing down the current path with the current powers and situation is not an option for me and a lot of others. The new angle on his origin has to go and this whole "Other" nonsense has to be wrapped up.

Peter doesn't need suped up powers or stingers. There were nothing wroing with his old powers. This is where "good writing" should have been used instead of resorting to this type of stupidity.

Spider-Man isn't Wolverine-Lite or for that matter Iron Man Jr!