HBO Sci-Fi Series ‘’The Nevers’’

[DarthSkywalker]

Whedon had huge creative battles with Marvel. Russos are clearly yes men, very talented but they’re also total hired guns without the kind of authorial voice Whedon has, Feige has a clear preference for good soldiers and Whedon pretty evidently had a miserable experience on Ultron. It’s hard to say it had anything to do with him being some kinda abusive jerk, most of the stories about Whedon’s conflicts with Marvel on Ultron reflect worse on Feige. Don’t disagree that it’s an interesting pattern though.

I agree they had creative battles, which to me is exactly why Feige didn't want to deal with Whedon anymore, especially as he already had the wheels for Civil War and what came after in motion. I don't think this was an "abuse" situation as much as a "I am tired of this dude" situation. Mostly though, I think it is telling that Whedon clearly lied with the AoU situation and is clearly lying here. So taking his word on these matters feels impossible at this point. Dude's a obvious liar, and not an elegant one. That he used COVID as a crutch here is embarrassing as hell imo.

P.S. I don't know if the Russos, Markus and McFeely are yes men or not. They do seem to actually get along with Feige, which is probably a good thing. What I do know is the story they crafted by them from TWS through Endgame was pretty terrific, and I preferred them to Whedon by a lot.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I agree they had creative battles, which to me is exactly why Feige didn't want to deal with Whedon anymore, especially as he already had the wheels for Civil War and what came after in motion. I don't think this was an "abuse" situation as much as a "I am tired of this dude" situation. Mostly though, I think it is telling that Whedon clearly lied with the AoU situation and is clearly lying here. So taking his word on these matters feels impossible at this point. Dude's a obvious liar, and not an elegant one. That he used COVID as a crutch here is embarrassing as hell imo.

P.S. I don't know if the Russos, Markus and McFeely are yes men or not. They do seem to actually get along with Feige, which is probably a good thing. What I do know is the story they crafted by them from TWS through Endgame was pretty terrific, and I preferred them to Whedon by a lot.

I’m a bit mixed, I overall enjoy the Russo’s Avengers movies more - though MCU stuff almost never interests me enough to revisit so that’s a soft endorsement because I’m not really the audience for it, I only really actively care about Guardians and Waititi’s Thor but the writing in the MCU always feels like off brand Whedon to me - Whedon.txt is my favourite description of the writing in the MCU - even after he departed but without the nuances of specificity of his dialogue. Like, the way he writes Tony, Steve and Banner feel so much more distinct and well characterized to me than Markus and Feely’s dialogue. I particularly vastly prefer his Banner despite the super questionable Black Widow stuff in Ultron, my love of Mark Ruffalo is the only thing that keeps me from absolutely loathing the super shallow take the Russo’s have.

I get a sense of who Whedon is as an artist from his movies even though they aren’t great. I have absolutely no idea what the Russo’s unique perspective is, I’ve never found the political stuff in their Cap movies which is what I typically see pointed to all that substantive or compelling - especially in Civil War, a movie that just doesn’t work at all for me beyond the actors.

 

[Primal Slayer]

In Hollywood you have a narrative and you don't tell the full on "truth". Joss/Marvel played it like most people do in the business.

And to quote him himself

"Ultron has been the most complicated response I've gotten, and the way I deal with it is becoming fetal for about eight months [audience laughter]. I ****ing have no spine or self-identity or anything, and it's horrifying. It sucks... But I'll be okay... Later..."

Likely something similar here along with HBO wanting a clean cut. But you arent going to find many actors/directors who are 100% truthful when it comes to leaving a project. They arent going to burn bridges until they have a good deal in place with someone else.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Yeah, I don’t blame Whedon or studios for coming up with polite excuses. It’s just the professional thing to do. They don’t owe us any explanation to begin with, we all know it’s not going to be exactly true, so that’s just a big whatever to me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I’m a bit mixed, I overall enjoy the Russo’s Avengers movies more - though MCU stuff almost never interests me enough to revisit so that’s a soft endorsement because I’m not really the audience for it, I only really actively care about Guardians and Waititi’s Thor but the writing in the MCU always feels like off brand Whedon to me - Whedon.txt is my favourite description of the writing in the MCU - even after he departed but without the nuances of specificity of his dialogue. Like, the way he writes Tony, Steve and Banner feel so much more distinct and well characterized to me than Markus and Feely’s dialogue. I particularly vastly prefer his Banner despite the super questionable Black Widow stuff in Ultron, my love of Mark Ruffalo is the only thing that keeps me from absolutely loathing the super shallow take the Russo’s have.

I get a sense of who Whedon is as an artist from his movies even though they aren’t great. I have absolutely no idea what the Russo’s unique perspective is, I’ve never found the political stuff in their Cap movies which is what I typically see pointed to all that substantive or compelling - especially in Civil War, a movie that just doesn’t work at all for me beyond the actors.

My issue with Whedon is what makes him distinct, is his sounding like a lesser QT. Mainly as with QT the major characters all kind of talk like him in a manner that I just don't enjoy, though QT is infinitely better at it imo. I much prefer the Russos Cap, Tony, Widow, and Thor to Whedon's. Their Thor lines up well with Taika's and I think their Panther, Spidey and Strange were all particular strong. I also think they did a much better job with Nebula and Gamora. All their female characters are much better then Whedon's imo, which all reflect on the lesser aspect of Whedon's personality. Namely, he's creepy and has a view of women that I don't find nuanced, real or pleasant. It's the same with Gunn.

How Widow is handled in TWS, Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame is a big example of where that group succeeds and Whedon fails. That Endgame has the dumb Widow death, and still succeeds far more in making her a three dimension character without the weird aspects that Whedon likes to integrate, is enough for me to say they have a better handle of how to write these characters then Whedon. That they also understood the idea of integrating the story of these characters from other films instead of dismissing them to rehash lesser takes on the other films, also helps.

That people keep trying to give Whedon, a man who clearly has a view of women that would only now be considered progressive in the 90s, vehicles starring women is very annoying. My hopes for this show lay in the hands of the others in the room, like Espenson.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

My issue with Whedon is what makes him distinct, is his sounding like a lesser QT. Mainly as with QT the major characters all kind of talk like him in a manner that I just don't enjoy, though QT is infinitely better at it imo. I much prefer the Russos Cap, Tony, Widow, and Thor to Whedon's. Their Thor lines up well with Taika's and I think their Panther, Spidey and Strange were all particular strong. I also think they did a much better job with Nebula and Gamora. All their female characters are much better then Whedon's imo, which all reflect on the lesser aspect of Whedon's personality. Namely, he's creepy and has a view of women that I don't find nuanced, real or pleasant. It's the same with Gunn.

How Widow is handled in TWS, Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame is a big example of where that group succeeds and Whedon fails. That Endgame has the dumb Widow death, and still succeeds far more in making her a three dimension character without the weird aspects that Whedon likes to integrate, is enough for me to say they have a better handle of how to write these characters then Whedon. That they also understood the idea of integrating the story of these characters from other films instead of dismissing them to rehash lesser takes on the other films, also helps.

That people keep trying to give Whedon, a man who clearly has a view of women that would only now be considered progressive in the 90s, vehicles starring women is very annoying. My hopes for this show lay in the hands of the others in the room, like Espenson.

We are at least in agreement that Whedon would have written Gamora and Nebula terribly. It’s funny, I always find Whedon’s character voices are way more distinct from one another’s while the Russo’s tend to sound incredibly similar. I get a bit bored of the unrelenting samey snark from both, I just find Whedon’s more engaging and genuine - there’s nothing in the Russo’s movies that gives me a feel for the characters the way the party scenes in Ultron do.

One thing I’ll grant them: the trade-off for their comparatively lame Banner is their absolutely incredible Thor. I think he’s unquestionably the best MCU hero and Whedon had zero idea what to do with him outside of some good lines and the Hammer stuff in Ultron (my favourite MCU scene is Vision casually lifting the hammer, actually). He’s the only character in the Russo’s movies I ever feel actual emotional investment in.

Yeah, I’m not as critical as you about Whedon’s writing of women (I don’t totally disagree either) but he is absolutely not the guy for female lead franchises. I was not into him for Batgirl at all. I’d have preferred Whedon stayed on this on principle, but Espenson would be an enormously capable showrunner and I hope she gets the gig.

 

[Sithborg]

I am so glad that Whedon's "nice guy', king of feminism mask has been ripped off.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Yeah, I don’t want to completely write off Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective -
I know lots of girls who his work had a profound effect on - but there’s always been a whole ton of weird subtext there. Whedon being a dirtbag spouse is of absolutely no interest to me beyond being deeply amused by his ex’s epic takedown (Fisher’s ‘I believe Kai Cole’ as if anyone doubted her might be his most embarrassing Whedon burn) but boy is that exactly the kind of guy you’d think he was based on some of his writing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, I don’t want to completely write off Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective -
I know lots of girls who his work had a profound effect on - but there’s always been a whole ton of weird subtext there. Whedon being a dirtbag spouse is of absolutely no interest to me beyond being deeply amused by his ex’s epic takedown (Fisher’s ‘I believe Kai Cole’ as if anyone doubted her might be his most embarrassing Whedon burn) but boy is that exactly the kind of guy you’d think he was based on some of his writing.

As do I. I think for it's time it was very progressive. The issue is 20+ years later, a lot of the more obvious issues are apparent, especially with the revelations about him and the shows themselves. The situations with Carpenter, his choice words on casting, how physically similar so many of his female characters are, Xander, his use of rape as a crutch for a man's redemption story, his planned gang rape for Firefly, etc.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

As do I. I think for it's time it was very progressive. The issue is 20+ years later, a lot of the more obvious issues are apparently, especially with the revelations about him and the shows themselves. The situations with Carpenter, his choice words on casting, how physically similar so many of his female characters are, Xander, his use of rape as a crutch for a man's redemption story, his planned gang rape for Firefly, etc.

Doubt Fox would have ever allowed it but boy are we blessed we never got that Firefly story.

While I hope someday he visits that world again I’m actually quite happy with the amount of Firefly we have. Serenity might be an open ending, but I think it’s kind of perfect because of that.

 

[henzINNIT]

Watching Mando makes me miss Firefly so much, but it may not have been special like it was if the show lasted longer.

'Woke bae' Whedon got really obnoxious for sure, and it's poetic justice to have that blow up in his face. That said, there were real progressive strides in Buffy that really mattered. I still love that show and all of its characters. Some elements are aging poorly for sure, but that is 20 years of further progress in effect. I'm now old enough to realize that everything will be weathered by this. God dammit Hollywood is a cesspit though. If I hear Peter Jackson liked to do stuff with Hobbits, that's pretty much my whole childhood ruined.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I really don’t like how Whedon writes Cap in his Avengers movies. He goes for the easy “Cap is actually an old man” jokes in ways that funny on the surface, but don’t really gel with how the character is portrayed. “There’s only one God, Ma’am” is the big one that stands out. It’s simultaneously too corn ball and too cocky for Cap. He’s from from the 40s so this guy must be like religious, right, while the rest of MCU Cap seems entirely too respectful to be so assertive over something like that.

The other is the running “language” joke is AOU, so I get where this is coming from, he’s actually old, but this is also a guy who lead a squad of hard drinking, cig blasting commandos on the express mission of (Brad Pitt voice) “killin’ nazis”. He’s either battle hardened or totally naive, not both!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

First footage?

 

[metaphysician]

You're not going to cancel a mostly or entirely filmed big-budget show because the showrunner left. It could still wind up being a hit, Espenson or I'm sure other members of the writing team for it would make entirely worthy showrunners.

Such a shame. Unless they're preparing for worse stuff to come out this is super embarrassing if it's AT&T being so adverse to controversy they forced Whedon out over allegations literally only one tiny portion of the internet gives a **** about.

My random supposition: it isn't about the public at all. If WB/AT&T were concerned about public opprobrium, there would be a long list of people they'd have fired way before Whedon, not the least since its still unclear exactly what Whedon is supposed to have done that is morally objectionable ( Note: "Not being nice enough" is not morally objectionable, doubly so when it looks an awful lot like "Does not keep the creative direction going that he was *specifically hired to change*" ). Its about keeping the *talent* happy, internally. Which is to say, its corporate politics: Whedon is being driven out to appease the pro-Snyder faction within the company, because AT&T has somehow decided that they are valuable.

 

[Fincher]

First footage?

So it's still happening, at any rate. My reaction to what's there is positive.

 

[Filmfreak]

Season one has already been filmed, either all of it or most of it. I can't say I have an opinion on it from that little footage there is, so I'll wait for the full trailer to pass any sort of assessment.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Already seeing the Victorian X-Men vibe they've pitched it with. Regardless of how this got kinda ****ed over (maybe deservedly! Maybe Whedon was being a **** on this set too!) it's going to be great to see at least a season of Joss Whedon working in the narrative form he's most adept at after over a decade of massively compromised franchise work.

Really hoping if it's a hit Jane Espenson gets to be showrunner. She's been such a big part of Whedon's writing team for so long and I feel like she'd be a great successor. A Whedon created show run by a woman feels like a move that could pay major dividends creatively.

Also, Snyder and his assorted lackeys are so dedicated to their silly melodramatic persecution narrative (talking about the studio handling of JL, not Whedon being an asshat on set) that seeing SC advertised alongside a Whedon show is kinda funny in and of itself.

 

[Dr.]

‘The Nevers’: Philippa Goslett Named As Showrunner Of HBO Sci-Fi Drama – Deadline

 

[Filmfreak]

So I guess ditching Whedon and bringing on a woman as a showrunner in a female centric TV series is going to look much better and progressive for their public image. But I think they're almost done or completely done with filming season 1 so it's probably mostly for appearances' sake until it gets a renewal.

 

[Pennywise]

HBO's 'The Nevers' Taps Philippa Goslett as New Showrunner, Replacing Joss Whedon

 

[Primal Slayer]

Looks very good.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Yup, I'm definitely watching this one.

 

[Filmfreak]

Yeah it looks quite good. Very Whedon-y. Hopefully the entirety of Season 1 will have his imprint.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah it looks quite good. Very Whedon-y. Hopefully the entirety of Season 1 will have his imprint.

Thats the somewhat worrisome thing about it....if it feels like Whedon and is a hit, gets renewed...then S2??? Are they able to recreate that?

 

[Sithborg]

I mean, Angel generally benefitted from not being Whedon's main show. Frankly, getting the show away from Whedon before he gets his full teeth in and his... issues pop up in the writing is a good thing.