Heavy Rain - Light info appears and two vague screenshots.

[Timstuff]

Spoiler

The game did cheat a lot to throw us off of Shelby's trail. He was the wrong age, and also his internal thoughts did not make any sense in the context of him being the killer. He refers to the killer in the third person and acts generally clueless about the killer, so the only explanation is that he's breaking down the third wall and trying to decieve the player, which is a really strange concept that seems inconsistent with the rest of the game.

So basically, the reason we didn't suspect Shelby was because the game lied to us about what he was thinking.

 

[Havok83]

^^oh ok, gotcha. I still prefer that it didnt go that route.

Im curious in seeing what type of choices everyone made. Heres how my playthrough went

Spoiler

I shot Nathaniel. I talked him down but when he moved his hand, I thought he was going to shoot Blake, so I shot him first. Turns out all he had was a cross

I didnt shoot the drug dealer. I didnt want to be a killer and he had kids himself

I cut my finger off with an ax

I didnt drink what the crazy doctor gave Madison. I didnt trust him and he was too insistent on that.

I had Ethan have sex with Madison and later forgave her

In the subway station, I failed to escape with Ethan and he ended up getting arrested.

I didnt dust off all the prints in that shop and the cops picked up Shelby

As Shelby, I saved Lauren and later saved Kramer by giving him his pills

I drank the poison that was presented to Ethan

I managed to finish the game with all main characters alive

 

[Tron Bonne]

Spoiler

The game did cheat a lot to throw us off of Shelby's trail. He was the wrong age, and also his internal thoughts did not make any sense in the context of him being the killer. He refers to the killer in the third person and acts generally clueless about the killer, so the only explanation is that he's breaking down the third wall and trying to decieve the player, which is a really strange concept that seems inconsistent with the rest of the game.

So basically, the reason we didn't suspect Shelby was because the game lied to us about what he was thinking.

Spoiler

I tend to agree. I felt that even though Selby made sense as the killer in the grand scheme of the story, him being a playable character was a cheap red herring to throw us off from figuring out the killer ourselves (since I'm sure almost everyone assumed the killer wouldn't be a main character). It worked and all, but it was still somewhat a cheap way of doing it.

I also had a lot of problems like that in other aspects.

 

[Timstuff]

Spoiler

Part of what pissed me off about Shelby being the killer was that I had really grown to like him. He was probably my favorite character in the game by that point, although I suppose that the intention was that you would be shocked and outraged that he was the killer.

However, I really do think it was the fact that the game decieves you about Shelby though his thoughts and some of his possible actions that made the difference between being shocked and being pissed at the game. It wasn't just that Shelby was the last person you'd expect, it's because the game ruled him out as a suspect only to throw out the facts that we already knew about Shelby up to that point.

That's not a twist, it's a retcon.

 

[javi1024]

can you go through select chapters without saving, but still collect missing trophies. how depend on previous choices made?

 

[Tron Bonne]

can you go through select chapters without saving, but still collect missing trophies. how depend on previous choices made?

Yes, you can.

 

[Timstuff]

Another strange plot hole:

Spoiler

Why did Shelby pull a gun on Ethan at the end? If he wanted to kill Ethan he could have just poisoned him, and up to that point what had seen no evidence that the Origami Killer wanted to find the perfect father so he could kill him. It was random and out of place, but then again so was Shelby being the killer.

If it sounds like I'm nitpicking that's not my intention. I really like this game and thought that except for the ending, the story was really good, and it really made me invest a lot of emotion into the characters. I just think it's too bad that they the story seemed to change so sloppily near the end, because Indigo Prophecy / Fahrenheit had the exact same problem, except to an unfortunately far greater degree. Hopefully with Quantiac Dream's next game they'll be able to get it just right, because they definitely improved in HR, even if they didn't truly fix the problem.

 

[Havok83]

as far as the killer goes, all I can say is that he is

Spoiler

crazy. His actions werent those of a sane man and thats the only think i can say to explain what some have pointed out as inconsistencies. Im going to play the game for a second time to see if I notice things differently and if they dropped more clues that I didnt pay attention to.

On other thing that bothered me, that I guess could be different depending on how you play is

Spoiler

in the end, how did Madison know to call Jayden after her confrontation with Shelby? Where does she get his number from or even know him to contact him. In my game, she never crossed paths with him, yet she thinks to call him when she finds out who the killer is.

On a related note, why doesnt Jayden, ever pursue her after seeing her prints all over the murder scene at the dance club? Had he done so, it would have explained my first question

Another strange plot hole:

Spoiler

Why did Shelby pull a gun on Ethan at the end? If he wanted to kill Ethan he could have just poisoned him, and up to that point what had seen no evidence that the Origami Killer wanted to find the perfect father so he could kill him. It was random and out of place, but then again so was Shelby being the killer.

.

I dont think thats a plothole.

Spoiler

He accomplished his goal. He found a father willing to risk everything and die for his son. When Ethan showed up at the wharehouse, that ended the torment that he'd been living with the past several decades when his father refused to save his brother. Game over. He pulled the gun out on Ethan bc if he let Ethan lived, he'd tell on him. That was about covering up his tracks. I think he was ready to move on at that point and Ethan was the last loose end

 

[Tron Bonne]

Another strange plot hole:

Spoiler

Why did Shelby pull a gun on Ethan at the end? If he wanted to kill Ethan he could have just poisoned him, and up to that point what had seen no evidence that the Origami Killer wanted to find the perfect father so he could kill him. It was random and out of place, but then again so was Shelby being the killer.

If it sounds like I'm nitpicking that's not my intention. I really like this game and thought that except for the ending, the story was really good, and it really made me invest a lot of emotion into the characters. I just think it's too bad that they the story seemed to change so sloppily near the end, because Indigo Prophecy / Fahrenheit had the exact same problem, except to an unfortunately far greater degree. Hopefully with Quantiac Dream's next game they'll be able to get it just right, because they definitely improved in HR, even if they didn't truly fix the problem.

Since HR is relies so heavy on its plot, I think it lends to more scrutinizing than the average title that has a story that's just there.

On other thing that bothered me, that I guess could be different depending on how you play is

Spoiler

in the end, how did Madison know to call Jayden after her confrontation with Shelby? Where does she get his number from or even know him to contact him. In my game, she never crossed paths with him, yet she thinks to call him when she finds out who the killer is.

On a related note, why doesnt Jayden, ever pursue her after seeing her prints all over the murder scene at the dance club? Had he done so, it would have explained my first question

Holy crap, I didn't even think of that at all. That's true. Only thing I can think of is

Spoiler

perhaps she was only aware of him and knew his number through her own investigation?

Not a big plot hole, really, but yeah, that is weird.

 

[KALEL114]

Not a plot hole, but just a bit of a moment in the story witting.

Spoiler

The messed up on Shelby's age. The Newscaster said he was 48, but his tombstone says he was 44.

As far as Madison knowing Jayden's number. I chalk it up to her doing a story on the murders and she knew he was the lead FBI investigator from her research.

 

[Havok83]

Do you guys think this game should get a sequel? I think if they were to do one, the most likely route would be to feature [blackout]Jayden going to a new town, working on a new case. Madison can show up having now become a PI and help him on the case, although she shouldnt be necesary. [/blackout] OR for QD's next game, should they do a completely new game with a new plot, new characters and have no ties to HR?

Not a plot hole, but just a bit of a moment in the story witting.

Spoiler

The messed up on Shelby's age. The Newscaster said he was 48, but his tombstone says he was 44.

As far as Madison knowing Jayden's number. I chalk it up to her doing a story on the murders and she knew he was the lead FBI investigator from her research.

I mentioned that as well and I actually do consider it a plot hole

Spoiler

The main reason why I never suspected Shelby is bc of his age. He was too old to be the killer based on the hints we recieved. His brother died 30 years ago when he was 10. That should have made the killer 40 years old, which would have ruled Shelby out. When he was revealed as the killer, I went with it and figured stress had aged him and made him look 50 rather than 40, BUT the ending said he was 48, which only reinforced the inconsistency

 

[KALEL114]

It actually would be a "flub" and not a plot hole.

 

[Danalys]

Spoiler

not every killer fits the profile exactly. it's just a general case thing.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Just a tip for any of you trophy hunters, but I'm pretty sure the Happy Birthday trophy only works on a New Game playthrough. You can't just go to prologue from chapter select. Heads for those of you who may be planning to get all the trophies, but all your got wiped during the error

Do you guys think this game should get a sequel?

I believe they said earlier that they weren't planning to do a sequel.

 

[Havok83]

Just replayed the

Spoiler

Manfred killing scene and the way the game did it, its very plausible that Scott killed him. When Manfred is killed, the camera focuses on Lauren and the figure she picks up. We hear the loud sounding of the clocks ticking to drown out any noise from the back. When the camera pans back on Scott, he shakes his head as if something just went wrong. If you hear his thoughts he says "Lauren thinks she's about to find the killer; boy is she in for a surprise" When you do go back there and the phone is off the hook, he tells Lauren that the killer called 911, which is a lie. Manfred did and died while making the call. I think people saw this as a copout bc they werent looking for it, but on a second playthorugh you can notice the details more. Everything about Shelby is making alot more sense to me. Aside from the age issue, he fits as a the killer perfectly and Im not running into anything specific that would necesarily contradict that.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Just replayed the

Spoiler

Manfred killing scene and the way the game did it, its very plausible that Scott killed him. When Manfred is killed, the camera focuses on Lauren and the figure she picks up. We hear the loud sounding of the clocks ticking to drown out any noise from the back. When the camera pans back on Scott, he shakes his head as if something just went wrong. If you hear his thoughts he says "Lauren thinks she's about to find the killer; boy is she in for a surprise" When you do go back there and the phone is off the hook, he tells Lauren that the killer called 911, which is a lie. Manfred did and died while making the call. I think people saw this as a copout bc they werent looking for it, but on a second playthorugh you can notice the details more. Everything about Shelby is making alot more sense to me. Aside from the age issue, he fits as a the killer perfectly and Im not running into anything specific that would necesarily contradict that.

Spoiler

Manfred didn't make the call. He was checking his files right before Selby clocked him with the typewriter. Selby did make the call.

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

Manfred didn't make the call. He was checking his files right before Selby clocked him with the typewriter. Selby did make the call.

you are right. Just played that part again. [blackout]Im not getting his motivation for killing Manfred. Am I missing something? That seemed completely unnecesary[/blackout]

 

[Tron Bonne]

you are right. Just played that part again. [blackout]Im not getting his motivation for killing Manfred. Am I missing something? That seemed completely unnecesary[/blackout]

Spoiler

I think he killed him to get that notebook/file he was burning and to get him out of the way just in cause he could remember that Scott had that type of typewriter.

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

I think he killed him to get that notebook/file he was burning and to get him out of the way just in cause he could remember that Scott had that type of typewriter.

Spoiler

Did he really need to kill for that? Wasnt Manfred going to give it to him anyway? Thats something he could have easily stolen anyway. Shelby doesnt even take it. He doesnt find out that Lauren picked it up till later when you are at his apartment. Him owning that typewriter was highly circumstancial and they said that at least 30 clients also owned one

 

[Tron Bonne]

Spoiler

Did he really need to kill for that? Wasnt Manfred going to give it to him anyway? Thats something he could have easily stolen anyway. Shelby doesnt even take it. He doesnt find out that Lauren picked it up till later when you are at his apartment. Him owning that typewriter was highly circumstancial and they said that at least 30 clients also owned one

Spoiler

I don't know, it doesn't make complete sense to be me, but I just took it as him tying up any possible loose end that may be there

 

[Timstuff]

Spoiler

I think he killed him to get that notebook/file he was burning and to get him out of the way just in cause he could remember that Scott had that type of typewriter.

Spoiler

See, they already established that Shelby was willing to kill people in order to cover his trail and not just his regular origami victims, so why did he let Lauren live? Why did he even let her tag along in the first place? If he was acting in character throughout the game you'd think he would have offed Lauren the moment she started poking her nose into his "investigation," but instead he let her join him and even became close friends with her.

I'm really not sure if the game's writers had originally planned on having the killer's identity as it was when they started developing the game. I think that more likely, they had someone else in mind initially and then later in development someone said "Hey, I got a brilliant idea for who the killer should really be, I tell ya!" In some places it was easy to connect the dots that way, but unfortunately this also meant there were plenty of orphaned dots left over, and there were also places where there were no dots at all and they just had to make something up on the fly.

Again, I'm not saying the game's story is bad. I'm just trying to express why the ending annoyed me!

 

[Tron Bonne]

Spoiler

See, they already established that Shelby was willing to kill people in order to cover his trail and not just his regular origami victims, so why did he let Lauren live? Why did he even let her tag along in the first place? If he was acting in character throughout the game you'd think he would have offed Lauren the moment she started poking her nose into his "investigation," but instead he let her join him and even became close friends with her.

Spoiler

Unlike Manfred, she had no real potentially harmful information. She was basically just kind of an annoyance.

Plus, if you save Lauren whenever you and her are almost killed you get a scene where he sees her off and kisses. I think he had a thing for her, and that's probably why he didn't kill her and just shooed her off in the end as opposed to offing her.

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

See, they already established that Shelby was willing to kill people in order to cover his trail and not just his regular origami victims, so why did he let Lauren live? Why did he even let her tag along in the first place? If he was acting in character throughout the game you'd think he would have offed Lauren the moment she started poking her nose into his "investigation," but instead he let her join him and even became close friends with her.

I'm really not sure if the game's writers had originally planned on having the killer's identity as it was when they started developing the game. I think that more likely, they had someone else in mind initially and then later in development someone said "Hey, I got a brilliant idea for who the killer should really be, I tell ya!" In some places it was easy to connect the dots that way, but unfortunately this also meant there were plenty of orphaned dots left over, and there were also places where there were no dots at all and they just had to make something up on the fly.

Again, I'm not saying the game's story is bad. I'm just trying to express why the ending annoyed me!

I think the reason why

Spoiler

he let her tag along bc he felt guilty for killing her son and presumably husband. He had a clear goal when it came to these killings. He targeted fathers and used the kids as bait. He didnt really think of the people he hurt connected to them. He saw the impact he had on Susan Bowles, who was about to kill herself and leave her baby an orphan. When he went to question Lauren, he saw how deeply tormented she was. He saw first hand the effect he had on the mothers. I think he felt extremely remorseful for that.

Helping him with the case, gave Lauren purpose and in a way was giving her her life back. She felt alive and like she was making a difference. By the end, I think he was actually starting to fall for her as well. As horrible as the things Shelby did, I dont think he was a completely evil man. He did evil things, but I think he did have a heart and I think Lauren was the developers way of showing that

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

I don't know, it doesn't make complete sense to be me, but I just took it as him tying up any possible loose end that may be there

Spoiler

After thinking it over some more, I think Ive come up with a possible motive. He killed him bc of his experience and knowledge. Manfred just looked at the letter and knew what type of typewriter it came from. He only knew that bc of his old age and experience with various different typewriters over the years. Plus he was the only printing shop in town. Had the police gotten a hold of one of the envelopes, they could have gone elsewhere to get an opinion on it, but a younger expert in the field, most likely wouldnt have known what Manfred did. Even if they did and they were able to tell the cops what type of typewriter was used, a different shop owner in a different town, wouldnt have had the client list to connect to Shelby. If and when that were to happen, Manfred's shop would most likely be sold and shut down, thus removing that link from Shelby. Did I make any sense?

 

[Fading]

I think the reason why

Spoiler

he let her tag along bc he felt guilty for killing her son and presumably husband. He had a clear goal when it came to these killings. He targeted fathers and used the kids as bait. He didnt really think of the people he hurt connected to them. He saw the impact he had on Susan Bowles, who was about to kill herself and leave her baby an orphan. When he went to question Lauren, he saw how deeply tormented she was. He saw first hand the effect he had on the mothers. I think he felt extremely remorseful for that.

Helping him with the case, gave Lauren purpose and in a way was giving her her life back. She felt alive and like she was making a difference. By the end, I think he was actually starting to fall for her as well. As horrible as the things Shelby did, I think think he was a completely evil man. He did evil things, but I think did have a heart and I think Lauren was the developers way of showing that

I can agree with that.

Spoiler

I honestly don't think Shelby was purely a bad person. I just think he was mentally unbalanced and couldn't move past that point of his brothers death until he found someone he viewed as a worthy father. You might even say in a way he never grew up, he was still a kid seeking a father that could redeem the horrible father in his own life. Now in no way do I excuse any of the crap he did, I just mean that even tho he did murder those children and torture the fathers, it wasn't out of hate and some morbid urge to see ppl die.

He seemed to have some sort of conscience, especially when concerning Laurne, when she was attacked he defended her, in my story he pulled her out of a underwater car, he seemed a little troubled after killing Manfred, (again in my game) he saved the store clerk, he saved the mother and took care of her child. He's far from a saint, but I think his murdering ways were solely confined to his goal and didn't extend past that outside of tieing up loose ends. All of that is why he was a likeable character in the gamers eyes until the reveal. After that he just went straight into *****e bag territory as it was the final chapter and he started confronting, and trying to kill everyone.