Hey...how about a JL TV show?

[The Question]

I more or less liked Stargirl's costume and, beside the flying effect, the only problem with hawk man's is that it didn't fit right.

Really, effects aren't THAT big a deal. Doctor Who is one of the most beloved Sci-Fi shows of all time and up until very very recently it's special effects were HORRIBLE, even by the standards of the time.

Portraying the League with respect means making something with a good story and good acting. The special effects, while important, are secondary to that.

And if we're more likely to see a live action JLA on TV than in a movie, and that show looked like the JSA episode of Smallville in terms of effects, I'm okay with that so long as it's written, acted, and directed well.

 

[Rockstar]

You must be easily able to suspend your disbelief then, because they looked like poor halloween costumes or cosplay to me. I couldn't take them seriously at all.


Then again, the lack of good storytelling probably didn't help matters with Smallville. You're right that good writing and dialogue can make a huge difference.

If there was a DC show up to par with Doctor Who's quality, it would be great... but that is an unlikely pipedream.

If anything, this new DC series, Arrow, precludes any possible chance of another live action DC show anytime soon, especially something as radical as JL.

 

[The Question]

You must be easily able to suspend your disbelief then, because they looked like poor halloween costumes or cosplay to me. I couldn't take them seriously at all.

Well, I guess part of it is the fact that, in most cases, super hero costumes would look like halloween costumes in real life, so it seemed plenty believable to me.

Then again, the lack of good storytelling probably didn't help matters with Smallville. You're right that good writing and dialogue can make a huge difference.

If there was a DC show up to par with Doctor Who's quality, it would be great... but that is an unlikely pipedream.

If anything, this new DC series, Arrow, precludes any possible chance of another live action DC show anytime soon, especially something as radical as JL.

Why?

If anything it makes it more likely. These are franchises, they're made to be exploited and mass produced for easy consumption.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Man of Steel is really on it's own with reintroducing Superman. The public couldn't care less about the character today.

And if anything, Smallville proves that an accurate JL can't be done on TV in live action[/IMG]

I agree with that completely.

My point was just that Smallville WAS a Justice League TV series.

Whether it worked or not is a matter of opinion, but I don't see how doing another JL tv show would be much different.

 

[The Question]

Whether it worked or not is a matter of opinion, but I don't see how doing another JL tv show would be much different.

Well, for one, the writing could not suck and be stupid. That would be a huge difference.

 

[Rockstar]

Why?

If anything it makes it more likely. These are franchises, they're made to be exploited and mass produced for easy consumption..

They also cost money and the budget for something like a live action Justice League series that is respectful to the source material would be ridiculously high.

The concept of a live action JL series is completely 100% impractical right now.

Heck, I don't even think they have the resources to pull it off in the film division currently either, based on the way WB is set up.......unless they want a another disaster like Green Lantern.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Well, for one, the writing could not suck and be stupid. That would be a huge difference.

Yeah I guess so... I mean it's possible, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope for it.

With the current trend, they'd probably just bind everything in 'realism'.

At least Smallville wasn't afraid of being pure fantasy.

 

[The Question]

They also cost money and the budget for something like a live action Justice League series that is respectful to the source material would be ridiculously high.

The concept of a live action JL series is completely 100% impractical right now.

Heck, I don't even think they have the resources to pull it off in the film division currently either, based on the way WB is set up.......unless they want a another disaster like Green Lantern.

You're missing one thing:

Cashing in.

If The Avengers stays popular, a TV show would be a great way for them to cash in on the superhero team buzz without looking like a TOTAL rip off.

Yeah I guess so... I mean it's possible, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope for it.

With the current trend, they'd probably just bind everything in 'realism'.

At least Smallville wasn't afraid of being pure fantasy.

Well, I mean, they'd have to have super powers. That's kind of in the basic premise. Any added "realism" after that wouldn't necessarily be detrimental.

 

[Rockstar]

Smallville needed to be grounded in pure fantasy since most of their storylines and plots were so bad they were nonsensical.


The realism thing just works perfectly with Arrow, since he is the poor man's Batman essentially. Everything about him is grounded in reality.

It's the right approach, but whether these producers and writers can pull it off is another story. These guys aren't Christopher Nolan.

 

[Rockstar]

You're missing one thing:

Cashing in.

If The Avengers stays popular, a TV show would be a great way for them to cash in on the superhero team buzz without looking like a TOTAL rip off..

The film division has always been a much stronger way of cashing in, hence why it always gets priority for bankable franchises.

Only the DC franchises stuck in development hell get tossed onto TV.


To be realistic, I think if WB did want to cash in on the success of the Avengers... they'll probably play it safe and commision a DC team film like "Doom Patrol" for example, to test the waters.

I know they have a spec script floating around for it.

 

[The Question]

The film division has always been a much stronger way of cashing in, hence why it always gets priority for bankable franchises.

Only the DC franchises stuck in development hell get tossed onto TV.

But here's the thing: There is a very strong possibility that they'd bomb with a JLA movie or anything like it. If they wanted to do it even close to right, it would take them years, and it'd come out long after the Avengers hype died out. If they rushed into it it'd probably be a failure. And either way critics and audiences would see it as a total rip off.

TV, however, might not have the same stigma. From a storytelling standpoint they'd have the time to develop every member of the cast and their individual issues, and if it's on TV instead of on the big screen then it may be seen more favorably by the public.

In the long term, a JLA TV show has the potential to make way more money than a JLA movie, once you take all of that into account.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

A cinema franchise like Avengers has done something incredible... it's produced something that not just comic nerds love, not just superhero fans love, not just action movie fans love, and not just movie fans love... but that EVERYONE can enjoy.

You make a JL tv show, it simply won't have the same impact. Because a tv show is restricted by the fact that it needs to be watched every week. You need 'fans' in order to become succesful. They need to be willing to give up an hour a week of their time. And mostly, it's only people that are 'into tv' that are willing to do that anyway.

I mean, Smallville isn't something that people know a lot about. If I asked people in the street 'you remember that show Smallville', they might go 'oh yeah, I remember that being on sometimes', and maybe they'll have watched it when nothing else was on... but they didn't care about it. They probably couldn't even name most of the characters.

 

[Thundercrack85]

With the exception of a few exceptionally popular hit shows like say Friends, the X-Files, and the Simpsons (forgive the 90's references), that's the response you'll usually get when you ask random people about a random TV show.

Smallville did very well for itself. It wouldn't have gotten 10 seasons if it didn't.

So, viewership wouldn't be the problem. Money, execution, and quality are.

 

[Tobias]

With the exception of a few exceptionally popular hit shows like say Friends, the X-Files, and the Simpsons (forgive the 90's references), that's the response you'll usually get when you ask random people about a random TV show.

Smallville did very well for itself. It wouldn't have gotten 10 seasons if it didn't.

So, viewership wouldn't be the problem. Money, execution, and quality are.

So true.

Smallville lasted 10 seasons cause it made and still makes (DVD sales) huge bucks for WB.

Folks may not like a particular actor, say it wasn't really Superman or whatever. But it caught on and most importantly made buck.

The Smallville digital comic is clearly a step towards doing a Smallville animated DVD film. Follow the money as they say.

Yeah, it wasn't "really" Superman and all, but it did better financially than the "real" Suprmen be it the Reeve films or L&C or SR. And money is the bottom line like it or not.

Superman is a fading franchise and is on the the way. Yet Smallville was able still to capitalize on it during it's twilight years.

It was all the Lex/Clark relationship IMO. Smallville's writers got it while DC and WB's didn't. It's like WB/DC has eyes but they fail to see. Didn't Lex say something like to Miss T. in Superman: The Movie?! Oh well.

 

[Rockstar]

Tobias, Lex and Clark aren't supposed to have a relationship at all.


That is why Lex got the forced mindwipe in the Smallville finale. Basically all their interactions was empty teasing leading nowhere.


If Lex knew Clark as more than just passing random individual, the Superman identity would be ruined.


It only worked in the silver age inspired comics because they were both young boys in Smallville and only interacted for a short period.


Man of Steel portraying them as 'brothers' would be a huge mistake.

 

[Rockstar]

But here's the thing: There is a very strong possibility that they'd bomb with a JLA movie or anything like it. If they wanted to do it even close to right, it would take them years, and it'd come out long after the Avengers hype died out. If they rushed into it it'd probably be a failure. And either way critics and audiences would see it as a total rip off.

TV, however, might not have the same stigma. From a storytelling standpoint they'd have the time to develop every member of the cast and their individual issues, and if it's on TV instead of on the big screen then it may be seen more favorably by the public.

In the long term, a JLA TV show has the potential to make way more money than a JLA movie, once you take all of that into account.

Gotta disagree with you there. That's not the way the industry works. Television is such a second rate medium if Warners is looking for big bucks.

They won't really be able to draw in Avengers-level revenue without some type of film project, even though it probably won't happen.

This was the logic behind why WB canned initial plans for a Batman TV series on TheWB when plans for Batman Begins started to take shape. The financial potential from a film was a much better investment.

The film division execs are the ones who want money in their pockets too.



From a personal fan perspective too, trying to do Justice League on TV without Batman and Superman is just an incredible fail IMO. The other characters just don't have the same impact and iconic stature of the World's Finest. You'll end up with something mediocre and not true to the source material. It's not worth bastardizing Justice League.

And of course, there's zero chance that Batman and Superman can be featured in any live television adaptations with the film division currently doing TDKR, MoS and the Batman Reboot.

 

[Tobias]

Tobias, Lex and Clark aren't supposed to have a relationship at all.


That is why Lex got the forced mindwipe in the Smallville finale. Basically all their interactions was empty teasing leading nowhere.


If Lex knew Clark as more than just passing random individual, the Superman identity would be ruined.


It only worked in the silver age inspired comics because they were both young boys in Smallville and only interacted for a short period.


Man of Steel portraying them as 'brothers' would be a huge mistake.

Where is it written in stone that Lex and Clark are not supposed to have a relationship?!

It was done early on in the Silver Age as you point out.

I dunno why folks don't get it. It was a huge factor if not the main factor in the appeal, early on, of Smallville.

Lex and Clark as "brothers" who become blood enemies. That is the stuff of myths.

That is why there are 14,000 Smallville fics on fanfic.net and barely a thousand Superman fics. The draw of the story/relationship/tragedy. It's as plain as that IMO.

This is the stuff of mythology. Lex and Clark. Ying and yang. Good brother, bad brother. That magic or draw or intrigue or whatever you want to call it is what Superman lost a long time ago and why the franchise is about at it's end.

But really, Lex could suspect Clark's dual identity in Metropolis, or not. It works either way.

Some of the best Superman fics I've read are where Lex kows knows but vouchafes that knowledge. It makes their relationship even more complex.

Superman failed as a franchise cause DC and WB didn't delve into these areas. It would have added to the mythos. I can damn well guarantee you it makes for great fanfics.

 

[Rockstar]

Smallville did very well for itself. It wouldn't have gotten 10 seasons if it didn't.

So, viewership wouldn't be the problem. Money, execution, and quality are.

Success is relative. TheCW needed Smallville to keep it afloat. The show would have died painfully on any of the credible networks.

One Tree Hill went 9 seasons on The CW.

Charmed went for 8.

7th Heaven went for 11.


Smallville had to really ****e itself out creatively in order to last as long as it did and keep it's viewership going.

It catered to shippers. It focused on relationships and drama, like the other CW soaps. If you look into the dark crevices of Smallville's actual fanbase, you'll see what I mean. It's pretty sad.

 

[Rockstar]

Where is it written in stone that Lex and Clark are not supposed to have a relationship?!

It was done early on in the Silver Age as you point out.

I dunno why folks don't get it. it was a huge factor in the appeal, early on, of Smallville.

Lex and Clark as "brothers" who become blood enemies.

That is the stuff of mythology. That is what Superman lost a long time ao and why the franchise is about at it's end.

But really, Lex could suspect Clark's dual identity in Metropolis, or not. It works either way.

Some of the best Superman fics I've read are where Lex kows knows but vouchafes that knowledge and won't tell anyone. But Clark. It makes their relationship even more complex.

Superman failed as a franchise cause DC and WB didn't deve into these areas. It would have added to the mythos. I can damn well guarantee you it makes for great fanfics.

Haha. You read fics. I'll try to pretend I didn't see that.


In the Silver Age, they were boys when they briefly interacted in Smallville.


CW's Smallville made Lex and Clark have an intimate familial relationship all the way into manhood.


Lex Luthor isn't supposed to know farmboy Clark Kent. The only 'Clark' he is somewhat aware of is the reporter disguise. The disguse wouldn't work if he knew the real farmboy Clark Kent as close as he did.

This is why the show had to resort to mindwiping all of Lex's development in the SV finale.

Basically, Lex's entire development (the big drawing point of the show) was an empty tease that led nowhere and was retconned. That is poor writing and poor planning at it's finest.

 

[Tobias]

Success is relative. TheCW needed Smallville to keep it afloat. The show would have died painfully on any of the credible networks.

One Tree Hill went 9 seasons on The CW.

Charmed went for 8.

7th Heaven went for 11.


Smallville had to really ****e itself out creatively in order to last as long as it did and keep it's viewership going.

It catered to shippers. It focused on relationships and drama, like the other CW soaps. If you look into the dark crevices of Smallville's actual fanbase, you'll see what I mean. It's pretty sad.

Yup, Smallville is the second longest running series on CW after 7Th. Not a bad thing.

Sure it catered to relationships. That is life.

Look at SR. The absurdity of the Lex/Supes relationsip. Actually there was none and that was part of why the film "failed".

Read mythology. Lex and Clark should be a mytholigical relationship. Smallville tried to show that. It worked in the first few seasons but then...

WB does not get this, DC does not get this. But they have written off the franchise. Superman is basically over after MOS.

But WB and DC can/should learn a lesson from the failure of this franchise. It is indeed about relationships and larger than life relationships. That is what folks/movie-goers/comic buyers crave.

We can only hope that DC and WB bring "relationships" to their new franchises that will replace Superman.

 

[The Guard]

Is someone trying to use fanfiction counts to prove that SMALLVILLE was more successful than other Superman projects?

People forget...there was an attempt at a JLA TV show in the 90's. The pilot didn't get picked up, but you can find it online. I think the big problem with JLA is the effects/budget. Even SMALLVILLE often looked hokey, and its JSA/JLA elements tended to look awful. Would I love to see a JLA show? Absolutely. There are a lot of shows I'd love to see. I don't trust the studio to do most of the concepts justice. We'll see how ARROW turns out.

 

[Rockstar]

Haha.

The Superman/Lex relationship in SR was the same as the 1978 Donner film, which was the greatest live action version of the character done thus far.

It even inspired Nolan he claims.


Lex and Clark are not brothers. They aren't Thor and Loki, or like any of the other relationships based on mythology.

I know Smallville tried to integrate that cliche into it's version of Clark and Lex, but it just doesn't reconcile at all with their future relationship in the Superman mythology (hence the mindwipe).


Man of Steel will most definitely own, with ease, anything Smallville has attempted with Superman's origins. It won't be hard. Goyer and Nolan know what they're doing.

MoS has the potential to elevate Superman to an echelon beyond anything SV could hope to accomplish.

 

[Thundercrack85]

For the record, I'm not a fan of Smallville. Though I liked some of the ideas it had. Hell, there were even parts I liked. It was a TV show, so I didn't expect a lot. They obviously couldn't do things like show a young Clark fly around the world, go to alien planets, etc. They had to work with what they had (a limited budget, and limited special effects).

But my point is, that there is an audience for a show based on superheroes. Assuming it's well made.

I really didn't have an issue with Lex and Clark as friends. Though, it did become very problematic when Clark had faced every Superman enemy... before ever donning the suit or, indeed the very name. And I did have a problem with that.

Personally I would have no problem if Lex knew that Superman was Clark Kent. A competent writer could make that work.

 

[Tobias]

Is someone trying to use fanfiction counts to prove that SMALLVILLE was more successful than other Superman projects?

People forget...there was an attempt at a JLA TV show in the 90's. The pilot didn't get picked up, but you can find it online. I think the big problem with JLA is the effects/budget. Even SMALLVILLE often looked hokey, and its JSA/JLA elements tended to look awful. Would I love to see a JLA show? Absolutely. There are a lot of shows I'd love to see. I don't trust the studio to do most of the concepts justice. We'll see how ARROW turns out.

Forget SV, Batman fics are almost 7000, Spidey almosr 3000 and Superman (non-Smallville) - less tha 400.

That tells it all.

 

[Rockstar]

Personally I would have no problem if Lex knew that Superman was Clark Kent. A competent writer could make that work.

There's actually a reason why DC won't have Luthor learn Superman's identity.

It ruins everything. If Superman throws Luthor in prison (which happens all the time), what's to stop Lex from telling the Feds about Superman's identity?

Why would he rot in jail and sit on the secret? The logic just doesn't work to have Lex know about Superman's identity.

Lex would look like the biggest fool if he didn't act on that knowledge. It goes against his character.