Homophobia in criticism of BF and B&R

[RobC]

True, campness is used to greater effect (affect?) by straight guys, Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire, Jim Carrey in everything, Kevin Spacey in Superman Returns.

Camp has become associated with being gay, but its not like a defining factor. Plus, neon does not equal camp.

However I agree that looking at the bigger picture, even if Schumacher did bring some 'gay' into the films, thats not the reason they failed. Crappy acting, corny dialogue, rubbish special effects, and studio meddling ruined those films... Not nipples and neon...

 

[I Am The Knight]

Wait, Singer's gay as well? How do I not know these things?

And um, 300 is not gay, it just has homo-erotic subtext. Ditto with the book.

You live under a rock?

I agree 300 is not gay, Snyder translated the look from the comic to the screen.

 

[RobC]

Seriously, someone better get a big book of gay directors...

Someone I new once had a list of famous Jewish people. It was a really interesting reading considering it was just, you know, famous Jewish people...

Yeah, 300 is not gay, I think it's one of the manliest movies ever, but it has genuine homo-erotic subtext what with all the loin-cloths and nearly nude men. And don't get me started on the Persian guy...

 

[juarez]

To quote Ugly Betty: "Let's enjoy the homoerotic/homophobic 300". There's obviously gay subtext to the film, even if Miller neglected to portray the spartans as they actually were, y'know, getting it on with each other to forge a better alliance in battle. But the film's also pretty homophobic is in characterisation of Xerxes, who's some grotesque drag-queen who tries to "seduce" Butler's character. The director even admitted he portrayed him that way because "what's scarier to a 13 year old in the audience than a guy who wants to have his way with them".

 

[DeaDheaD]

None of them are gay within the context of the story.

That's not what I'm saying, what I meant was "IF" he was, it really wouldnt matter as long as his character was taken seriously and it was written well.

 

[dolfan55aj]

ok, not to get all political, but this is what's wrong with the world, people get way too uptight and over the top about political correctness... I mean 95% of the people who hate both of those movies probably dont even know the director was gay! I wish people would stop micro anylizing everything and just realize that the reason those movies sucked has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the director... Just give it a rest.

 

[Mr.E.Nygma]

ok, not to get all political, but this is what's wrong with the world, people get way too uptight and over the top about political correctness... I mean 95% of the people who hate both of those movies probably dont even know the director was gay! I wish people would stop micro anylizing everything and just realize that the reason those movies sucked has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the director... Just give it a rest.

Exactly, you're right, but it feels like the 5% who know it takes the sexual orientation as an argument, and that should be left apart the reasons why BF (less) and B&R (major) sucked. Many just mix up the terms "gay" and "camp", and you get some doubtful results then.

 

[RobC]

I totally agree, I didn't know Schumacher was gay, and honestly, my viewpoint didn't change when I found out.

B+R sucked for more reasons then a bit of campiness.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

That's not what I'm saying, what I meant was "IF" he was, it really wouldnt matter as long as his character was taken seriously and it was written well.

I doubt the Warner Bros. board would agree with you there.

Imagine the parents back in 1995, "I'm not having my kids play with gay superhero action figures!!!"

 

[RobC]

In '95 I think the parents were just happy that the action figures weren't wearing skintight vinyl lol...

 

[Webhead38]

Well let's see what we have established in this very "scattered" subject.

1) Juarez can only speak for himself, yet somewhere along the way he felt inspired to appoint himself "spokesman" for an entire group of people who embrace the homosexual lifestyle (Good credibility move there Juarez...).

2) Films, by general definition, are artistic expressions, which the public views and determines validity through ticket sales, DVD purchases, and general staying power of the subject over time. What one person sees in a film may be viewed by another completely different. All are relevant as it pertains to each individual's tastes.

3)If you are heterosexual or homosexual (maybe a switch-hitter?), go forth and be proud of yourself and your place in life. Whenever you get hungry or thirsty, no worries...Juarez is free to get you some chips and a beer while he figures out what his next argument is...with himself.

4) Juarez I wish you eternal happiness and peace. Although I doubt your various therapists have found much to date...Good luck.

5) In closing I would like to add possibly my best perspective for Juarez...
IT'S JUST A MOVIE... Get over it...

 

[juarez]

Well let's see what we have established in this very "scattered" subject.

1) Juarez can only speak for himself, yet somewhere along the way he felt inspired to appoint himself "spokesman" for an entire group of people who embrace the homosexual lifestyle (Good credibility move there Juarez...).

2) Films, by general definition, are artistic expressions, which the public views and determines validity through ticket sales, DVD purchases, and general staying power of the subject over time. What one person sees in a film may be viewed by another completely different. All are relevant as it pertains to each individual's tastes.

3)If you are heterosexual or homosexual (maybe a switch-hitter?), go forth and be proud of yourself and your place in life. Whenever you get hungry or thirsty, no worries...Juarez is free to get you some chips and a beer while he figures out what his next argument is...with himself.

4) Juarez I wish you eternal happiness and peace. Although I doubt your various therapists have found much to date...Good luck.

5) In closing I would like to add possibly my best perspective for Juarez...
IT'S JUST A MOVIE... Get over it...

1. Where did I appoint myself spokesperson for gay people? No, really, tell me where. Oh wait you can't, 'cause you just pulled that "fact" out of your arse. The only person I'm speaking for is myself. Re-read my original post, note how I stressed it was "my" opinion, as in I contended an argument and intended a discussion on it. Your post was way more didactic and condescending than mine. But thanks for your "view", such as it is. And if you're dumb enough to believe that people "embrace" a homosexual "lifestyle" then there's really no point in you commenting on the subject.

2. Yeah it's called subjectivity and personal views. Something for which you're slamming me for having. Hypocrite much?

3. No I'm arguing with ***** like you. That's what a discussion/argument is. If you can't grasp that concept maybe you shouldn't be posting on message boards.

4. ZING!

5. If it's just a movie then why do you care so much about what I'm saying about it? Here's a thought, why don't you get over it and not post in this thread? That works for everybody.

 

[RobC]

Zing... Love it.

Maybe everyone needs to calm down and you know, get a sense of humour.

Or just *calm down*

The debate should continue though. Back to subject...

I agree, some comments about B+R display homophobia, but this is inherent in our modern lifestyle. When I drop my last crisp, I say 'that's gay' I don't mean the crisp is homosexual, I just use it as a curse almost...

Which I guess shows how our society has conditioned us to believe that being gay is somehow wrong, or worse then being straight.

 

[Webhead38]

1. Where did I appoint myself spokesperson for gay people? No, really, tell me where. Oh wait you can't, 'cause you just pulled that "fact" out of your arse. The only person I'm speaking for is myself. Re-read my original post, note how I stressed it was "my" opinion, as in I contended an argument and intended a discussion on it. Your post was way more didactic and condescending than mine. But thanks for your "view", such as it is. And if you're dumb enough to believe that people "embrace" a homosexual "lifestyle" then there's really no point in you commenting on the subject.

2. Yeah it's called subjectivity and personal views. Something for which you're slamming me for having. Hypocrite much?

3. No I'm arguing with ***** like you. That's what a discussion/argument is. If you can't grasp that concept maybe you shouldn't be posting on message boards.

4. ZING!

5. If it's just a movie then why do you care so much about what I'm saying about it? Here's a thought, why don't you get over it and not post in this thread? That works for everybody.

1) There you go speaking for others again...
2) Hypocrite? Me? I've made one post. Where did I contradict myself? Oh, did you think I was talking about you in number two? Oh... I wasn't. See? You were looking for yourself where it didn't apply. It was an objective statement.
3) How do you know if I have a tw*t or not?
4) Not in public...please.
5)I don't care. It's just fun watching you struggle with the word "gay"... Your insecure on an epic scale and you need to impose this upon an audience. No worries. I am here. Let it out!!!

Batman and Robin, FOR ME, was a poorly conceptualized film that claims to have borrowed from the campy era of Batman. However, Bane was not involved in that era, so why use him at all? It's abundantly evident the director just poked through a list of colorful characters and made a costume film. Listen to his commentary towards the end fo the film. He even admits these films will go on simply because their really about the outfits...RIGHT. There is the spoken truth behind this flop. He didn't feel a story was necessary, just lots of atmosphere and attitude. He now understands it was a mistake. Whatever else is in the film really takes a back seat to the fact it was a badly misdirected project.

 

[RobC]

I agree with that, B+R was just a badly managed project. If Schumacher had beeen reigned in more, if the costume and set designers hadn't gone quite so over the top, and if Akiva hadn't given them an absolutel *pig* of a script, B+R could have worked.

Props to Schumacher for admitting he was wrong though.

Plus, you guys should quit arguing over it, meh, get over it, it's not a big issue, you're both reading far too much into what the other is saying...

Just my opinion...

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Props to Schumacher for admitting he was wrong though.

Are we talking about his 'trick apology' on the B&R DVD?

 

[RobC]

Yeah, I know it's rather forced, and out of place...

But at least he tried. I've read interviews where he held his hands up as well...

I say that deserves something. Not a medal or anything. Well... Maybe a parade. But only because I like parades.

 

[Webhead38]

To be entirely fair to Schumacher, the man is a very good director...when he's familiar with the subject matter and he's inspired with the material. He's made some incredibly good films and his talent as a director is demonstrated in his body of work. But, like any artist, not every subject is his to direct. Batman was clearly not something he was familiar with and it's not because he's gay. Actually if he had been allowed to make the Dark Knight saga, we might be having an entirely different conversation about his directing ability as it pertains to our caped wonder. But it simply wasn't meant to be.

The film was flighty and when news got out that he was gay, it only enhanced the perception of the film's treatment. That is forever it's reputation, deserved or not. I know Schumacher trys to pull the studio into the blame game, but ultimately his name is on it, so I have to assume he felt he was releasing something that he thought was fun and harmless. The fact that he couldn't see it for what it was, inspires people to suggest his lifestyle played a bigger influence than what he might have realized. Once again, it's just one perception, but a popular one.

 

[Spoonman]

Are we talking about his 'trick apology' on the B&R DVD?

Trick or not, at least he isn't totally blinded or egocentric to pretend nothing happened and he was right all the time, and the DVD isn't the only place were he accepted his mistake. Now, I'm not saying it changes everything or something, of course not and I won't forgive the guy for B+R mainly because like Webhead38, I have the same opinion about Schumacher as a director (I like many of his films) and I know he was capable of more, hell, as flawed as Batman Forever is, at least TO ME is definitly not the campfest and unwatchable crap that B+R is, so I was expecting something at the level of BF with the fourth movie, and was hugely dissapointed when I got..what we all got.

I will be forever (no pun intended) curious about a darker Batman movie directed by Schumacher, because I know he can pull off dark and serious stuff (that's what makes his Batman movies really ironic to me).

 

[RobC]

Yeah, Schumacher's dark Batman could have been intense, whether it was a Y1 style, or Triumphant with the Scarecrow. Guess WB kinda double screwed us, they greenlit B+R then pulled out of Triumphant...

 

[Punch]

What was his apology?

 

[ab38416]

What was his apology?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6epsGrcuTs

 

[I Am The Knight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6epsGrcuTs

LOL. "Somewhat" dissapointed, Joel? t:

 

[RobC]

Yeah he kinda went around the subject. But at least he stood up. Makes him a bigger man IMO.

 

[hegele]

Although I didn't like Batman & Robin at all (i enjoyed Batman Forever, pretty entertaining) I think the nipple criticism is pretty ridiculous. That seems to be the main gripe for fans. I'm not a fan of the nipples myself but there are structural problems with B&R that goes far beyond anything two nipples can bring. I also think people miss the entertainment factor Joel attempted with B&R and BF. It also had balls (no pun intended), they dropped the Elfman theme completely and brought in a new great score and really took a risk with the out of control art direction and colorful pallet, thats much more than I can say for the painfully dull "safe" Superman Returns.