Houston police shoot a wheelchair-bound double amputee in a group home

[roach]

I think the article was clear that the Officer said he thought it was a knife, not a gun.

I went back and actually read the articles. This is something that stood out to me:
Claunch, who lost an arm and a leg in a train accident, trapped one officer with his wheelchair in the corner of a room "where he couldn't get out," said a Houston police department spokesperson who declined to be identified. The double amputee was "advancing towards" the officers and "refusing to show his hands."
According to police accounts reported in the media, including by KTRK, Claunch attempted to stab the officer with an object that turned out to be a pen.
Officer Matt Marin, "in fear of the safety of his partner and the safety of himself, discharges his duty weapon, striking the suspect," Silva said.

If the events played out the way this says then the police officer was doing what he was trained to do.
Use of deadly force is predicated on having three things present. Intent. Capability. Opportunity.
The person refuses to obey police commands. He continues to advance against his partner. He is making stabbing motions.

Its an unfortunate situation but he did what he is trained to do.

 

[Baramos]

But Marin, his partner, the one who actually shot him, was not the one being cornered. How hard would it be to grab the wheelchair from behind, or do anything else, other than shoot him in the head? I mean seriously now.

 

[roach]

But Marin, his partner, the one who actually shot him, was not the one being cornered. How hard would it be to grab the wheelchair from behind, or do anything else, other than shoot him in the head? I mean seriously now.

Doesnt matter if the person being cornered isnt the one to shoot. Use of deadly force is authorized to protect life...regardless if its civilian or another officer.

I cant answer that without being there. I dont know what the circumstances were.

 

[The Question]

I went back and actually read the articles. This is something that stood out to me:
Claunch, who lost an arm and a leg in a train accident, trapped one officer with his wheelchair in the corner of a room "where he couldn't get out," said a Houston police department spokesperson who declined to be identified. The double amputee was "advancing towards" the officers and "refusing to show his hands."
According to police accounts reported in the media, including by KTRK, Claunch attempted to stab the officer with an object that turned out to be a pen.
Officer Matt Marin, "in fear of the safety of his partner and the safety of himself, discharges his duty weapon, striking the suspect," Silva said.

If the events played out the way this says then the police officer was doing what he was trained to do.
Use of deadly force is predicated on having three things present. Intent. Capability. Opportunity.
The person refuses to obey police commands. He continues to advance against his partner. He is making stabbing motions.

Its an unfortunate situation but he did what he is trained to do.

You know what? He shouldn't have.

In this instance, he should not have done what he was trained to do. This was an instance where his training did not apply.

I don't want police officers that reflexively rely on their training, I want police officers that are mindful of the situation and adjust and adapt what they learned in their training to that situation.

I'm being asked to trust these people with my lives and safety and the power take the freedom away from and use deadly force on citizens. This is not too much to ask in return. I have the right to hold the people who are supposed to protect me and use guns while they do it to a high standard.

 

[KingMob]

Clearly the cop was right to just shoot someone rather than use literally any other option to stop a cripple. I mean, being a cop is hard work you guys. I am getting seriously miffed that people are always trying to complain about cops using excessive force. Thats WHY they became cops, to shoot bad guys.

 

[roach]

You know what? He shouldn't have.

In this instance, he should not have done what he was trained to do. This was an instance where his training did not apply.

I don't want police officers that reflexively rely on their training, I want police officers that are mindful of the situation and adjust and adapt what they learned in their training to that situation.

I'm being asked to trust these people with my lives and safety and the power take the freedom away from and use deadly force on citizens. This is not too much to ask in return. I have the right to hold the people who are supposed to protect me and use guns while they do it to a high standard.

Sorry but in situations where split second decisions are required all they have is their training. This guy in a wheel chair was going after his partner with what he thought was a knife. The minute you underestimate someone you are dead...and believe it or not people in wheelchairs with only one arm can kill you with a knife.

 

[The Question]

Sorry but in situations where split second decisions are required all they have is their training. This guy in a wheel chair was going after his partner with what he thought was a knife. The minute you underestimate someone you are dead...and believe it or not people in wheelchairs with only one arm can kill you with a knife.

He shouldn't have thought it was a knife. He should have been able to register that it was a pen faster. He should have been the kind of person who's smart enough and fast enough to make a much more informed split second decision than just relying on reflex. If someone isn't smart enough or fast enough to do that then they shouldn't be police officers. I have to trust these people with my life and the lives of the people around me. The police force needs higher standards for admitting applicants.

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[PemLam]

The problem is......there is a possibility that the first was a cover up and at the least, made to look, more within protocal than it was, and its hard to cover up a second....

No, but I think HPD realizes how big of a case this is, considering the officer involved.....and therefore bring in the FBI to make sure that they are seen as on the "up and up"...because they know the questions I brought up, may come up again...

I didn't say anything about whether or not it was a conspiracy the first time OR that they were wrong in their findings, only that those questions could quite possibly come up with this one and cast a bad light on the last time once again.

So rather than trying to turn words to fit your opinion.....read the post.

I did read your post and I wasn't making anything fit my opinion, I stated what happened in the first case. You are the one who made the accusation that it was possibly a cover up and according to your statement in bold, at a minimum they changed or adjusted their findings to fit their protocols. That's not "possibilities, opinions, speculation etc....." as you responded to another poster, that's setting a baseline and going from there. So who's turning words to fit their opinion?!

 

[Kelly]

I was simply stating how it is looking to people here in Houston, as shown in interviews, etc. I didn't state it as fact, it is simply people's PERCEPTION. And when you are dealing with people's PERCEPTIONS, their perception is their truth....whether it is correct or not. I actually have no clue what the outcome will be, no one does....but the perception that is building here in Houston is that the Police, are doing this type of thing far too much.

As for myself, I have no problems with the police here, they have a tough job. But that doesn't mean that I can't come into a discussion and state some possible outcomes, possible perceptions of others, etc. It's called a discussion, and guess what? that's allowed.

And as far as turning words to fit my opinion. I have yet to give my opinion....except to say, I think the officer may be in some trouble with this one. If that isn't your opinion.....fine.

 

[PemLam]

I was simply stating how it is looking to people here in Houston, as shown in interviews, etc. I didn't state it as fact, it is simply people's PERCEPTION. And when you are dealing with people's PERCEPTIONS, their perception is their truth....whether it is correct or not. I actually have no clue what the outcome will be, no one does....but the perception that is building here in Houston is that the Police, are doing this type of thing far too much.

As for myself, I have no problems with the police here, they have a tough job. But that doesn't mean that I can't come into a discussion and state some possible outcomes, possible perceptions of others, etc. It's called a discussion, and guess what? that's allowed.

And as far as turning words to fit my opinion. I have yet to give my opinion....except to say, I think the officer may be in some trouble with this one. If that isn't your opinion.....fine.

Kelly, we agree with respect to the 2nd incident...my personal (and professional) opinion (based on the facts/story at hand) is he didn't take reasonable steps to de-escalate the situation (i.e. Taser, baton, etc), so I also think he's in some trouble with this one.

 

[The Guard]

He shouldn't have thought it was a knife. He should have been able to register that it was a pen faster. He should have been the kind of person who's smart enough and fast enough to make a much more informed split second decision than just relying on reflex. If someone isn't smart enough or fast enough to do that then they shouldn't be police officers. I have to trust these people with my life and the lives of the people around me. The police force needs higher standards for admitting applicants.

He shouldn't have thought it was a knife? Why not? He doesn't know what it is (in theory). It's his JOB to consider the possibility that a man threatening to stab them, who won't show whether he has a weapon, and who is refusing to cooperate, may well have a weapon, that it may well be a knife, and that he may well be able to use it in a manner that could be deadly to the officers or to others.

The police force across the country (and probably the world) absolutely needs higher standards for admitting applicants, but I don't think this is necessarily an example of that.

The whole "Smart" and "Fast" enough thing...I'm not sure what that even means in context. There are criminals and nutjobs who are smart and fast, too. This isn't the comics or the movies, where everyone can always dodge bullets, knives and attacks just because they are smart and fast.

In this instance, he should not have done what he was trained to do. This was an instance where his training did not apply.

There's no instance where training, and what you learn in training, does not apply. Training doesn't teach cops to shoot no matter what. It teaches them to assess the situation and to respond, using their judgement.

I don't want police officers that reflexively rely on their training, I want police officers that are mindful of the situation and adjust and adapt what they learned in their training to that situation.

That seems to be what this officer did.

I'm being asked to trust these people with my lives and safety and the power take the freedom away from and use deadly force on citizens. This is not too much to ask in return. I have the right to hold the people who are supposed to protect me and use guns while they do it to a high standard.

Yes you do. And they have the right, if given a degree of autonomy, to make autonomous choices, and to utilize their own judgement.

 

[Kelly]

Kelly, we agree with respect to the 2nd incident...my personal (and professional) opinion (based on the facts/story at hand) is he didn't take reasonable steps to de-escalate the situation (i.e. Taser, baton, etc), so I also think he's in some trouble with this one.

We probably agree, that the correct findings were found in the first incident as well...I really wasn't making a point that either incident was right or wrong...simply that people's perception come into play in things like this far from the facts, and in this case, I think he has a problem. I think people's perception is why the HPD have called in the FBI, to make sure there is absolutely no way that people can cry cover up.

 

[Baramos]

I love that I even kind of dared people to come out of the woodwork and defend the police response in this situation in my opening post, and yet so many of you have replied in spades with this general sentiment! It is amazingly predictable.

I don't know what instance it will finally take to make people question police tactics in this country...maybe it will finally culminate in "Police shoot comatose quadriplegic" before half the people don't step in to play devil's advocate.

I mean, when people still don't even care after the BART shooting, I guess I can't expect anything different...but somehow I thought this might finally be the time where everybody just finally agreed that the police went too far in a situation. Oh, well. Better luck next time, I guess (and I have no doubt there will be a next time).

Erm. Sorry for that.

*gets off soapbox*

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't know how obviously biased a police report has to be before people who don't normally question a cop's motives start to ask questions.

So much of the descriptions of the amputee and his behavior seems like perfectly arranged scenarios that would require lethal force.

"I just shot a mentally ill double amputee who had a pen. How do I get out of this?"

I can say:

1) the pen looked like a knife
2) He was making stab motions, yeah that's the ticket
3) my partner was cornered

C'mon, while not impossible, these sound like the things you add to a police report get out of trouble. All are conveniently the only things a double amputee could possibly do to warrant getting shot with only a pen in his hand.

"Stab motions" AND "cornering a police officer while in a wheelchair"? Give me a break.

How did he maneuver a wheelchair skillfully enough to corner an able-bodied policeman with a pen in his ONLY arm/hand???

 

[Marvolo]

Did the cornered officer not have his baton? Wheel chair guy rolls near, corners officer, refuses to back away and show hands, pull out baton and smack him in the face one time. Or you know taser the guy. Pepper spray or any number of alternative measures. If a man with two working legs cant out maneuver a wheel chair he may need a wheelchair himself.

 

[Maximum Carnage]

It's simple; don't charge after a cop and expect good things to happen - no matter how many limbs you do or don't have..

 

[Kelly]

It's simple; don't charge after a cop and expect good things to happen - no matter how many limbs you do or don't have..

This is true....

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's simple; don't charge after a cop and expect good things to happen - no matter how many limbs you do or don't have..

That's assuming the cop is being perfectly honest and not exaggerating to avoid getting in big trouble.

Stranger things have happened.

Like I said, the cops story is suspect. How does a wheelchair-bound amputee corner an able-bodied police officer with a pen in his only hand/arm? Have you guys ever tried to maneuver a wheelchair with ONE HAND while holding something?

Bull****.

Oh I forgot he was making stabby motions.

 

[bullets]

Anytime you shoot an amputee in a wheelchair it's going to look bad.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Anytime you shoot an amputee in a wheelchair it's going to look bad.

Thank you for giving me the best sig line ever! t: