How can the Universe not end?

[Kane52630]

*plays The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning*

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Not sure what you mean by “cyclic.”

A couple of decades ago, scientists weren’t sure how much mass/gravity was in the Universe. It was possible that there was enough to put the brakes on expansion and eventually cause a contraction. In turn, this would lead to a Big Crunch… followed by another Big Bang… ad infinitum.

Nowadays, we have a more precise inventory of mass/gravity. And it appears that there’s not enough of it to stop expansion. Indeed, there’s an anti-gravitation force that’s actually speeding up expansion (so-called inflation). So… no Big Crunch, no infinite cycle of cosmic re-births.

…at least for this Universe.

I know how the model works, I was more enquiring as to your thoughts behind it, sorry for the confusion. Only because the ball for that theorem is starting to gain momentum again. But I'll take it your a fan of Heat Death?

Aw, come on now Doc, I may have only taken physics up to college, but I still like to keep up to date with the theoretical physicists that work more on the fringes of science and less on the mainstream theories, you can't just back out .

But, considering I'm always told I'm piss-poor at explaining things I'll recommend a documentary I think might bring a few new things to light for you. The horribly titled Horizon special: What Happened Before The Big Bang? While the cyclic (Bounce) model may only be picking up steam because of what is found when you try to unite the forces on a very small scale but with everything in the universe contained, I still think it's pretty good that people are at least considering other possiblities. Now that the Big Bang model may not even be correct, and the Inflationary model could become a contender for the crown of universal origin.

 

[Arc-Light]

Everyone needs to see Hubble.....if you can still see it in Imax, it is a must.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I believe in the cycles of life, death, and rebirth. If it were up to me, I'd say that even if the universe came to an end, it'd be born anew. Perhaps in a different shape or form. Perhaps on a different reality. But something will arise.

The whole idea of "everything that has a beginning has an end" is true, but consider our evidence for that 'beginning' or 'origin'. They're still theoretical. Perhaps the universe always existed and will continue to exist? Perhaps the same can be said about us. If 'nothing can come from nothing' then the cosmos would have always had to exist, but only through states of transformation.

It's like Batman becoming The Dark Knight.

On a Platonic level, the entire perception of the physical reality would then have to be subverted for a metaphysical reality, whose existence could very well prove the existence of the universe beyond it's projected 'end'. Very similar to monotheistic religious models.

To continue the dialectic of the 'Beginning/End' idea, it pretty much disagrees with the 'Void' since the Universe is said spatially and temporally unlimited. If nothing less can exist, it holds that the universe is singular. There were two Greek models pertaining to this, by Parmenides and Melissus, the former believed that the universe was limited and thus concentrated on the present, while the latter considered the universe in 'eternity', i.e. beyond time. It's a bit shady, but maybe they were both right and the present is the eternity?

Nevertheless, I don't think that whether the universe ends or not has nothing to do with our perception of its end. We'll always create a Doomsday-scenario, an Apocalypse, or Judgement Day, and we'll always place it in our minds as something that's far-off, away from NOW and from the PRESENT. Be it in religion, science, mythology, or simply in the stories we tell each other. That's why, in some crazy way, The Terminator series used to make sense. That is the mythical apocalypse, always deferred, forever there at the end of things.

I'll stop interjecting pop-cultural paradigms on philosophical postulation, but if you guys want to read more of these mind-bending questions and see some of the most qualified thinkers of the field failing miserably, I suggest heading up to the John Templeton Foundation's "Big Questions" essay series.

 

[KRIM]

There is a short story by Issac Asimov titled The Last Question that basically gives the only way it is possible for the universe not to end. It's a couple pages that takes around 15 minutes to read.

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

Quoted because this is my favorite short story of all time. If nothing else just read it to be enlightened.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyzIau5dBao

Some people believe that there is no end to anything in our reality, only what we perceive as an end. Even life may be eternal, just not the flesh you currently wear.

Just because a relationship ends does not mean that your universe has to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RYNVqmWYlk

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

I'm no scientist, but I think there will always be "something", even if the universe as we know it dies out.

Frankie Boyle surmised that when you die a big sign will pop up saying "level 2".

 

[Zanham]

Quoted because this is my favorite short story of all time. If nothing else just read it to be enlightened.

Yeah, it's good.

I wasn't looking for the answer to such a question or even worrying about it much but when I stumbled upon this, may have even been on these forums, it basically put an exclamation point on all my sci-fi knowledge. It looks darn difficult to top.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

 

[Lord]

What if like numbers, existence doesn't have a begining or an ending, what's the last number? There doesn't exist one because there are infinite numbers, and the same goes for the first number, it's not 1 or 0, it's some -infinite

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Yeah, it's good.

I wasn't looking for the answer to such a question or even worrying about it much but when I stumbled upon this, may have even been on these forums, it basically put an exclamation point on all my sci-fi knowledge. It looks darn difficult to top.

It's brilliant. I just read it right now and yeah, definitely among the finest.

There's also "The Last Answer"

 

[Zanham]

It's brilliant. I just read it right now and yeah, definitely among the finest.

There's also "The Last Answer"

That name, Isaac Asminov, and his works are very large and very powerful.

I knew the name but had never read his works and after reading The Last Question and The Last Answer I think my written works have been subconsciously following him as well as others. I don't read much anymore, I write, so it is not plagiarism and I can only explain similarities between my ideas and his, as well as others, as acts of synchronicity.

 

[Dr.]

...I'll recommend a documentary I think might bring a few new things to light for you. The horribly titled Horizon special: What Happened Before The Big Bang? While the cyclic (Bounce) model may only be picking up steam because of what is found when you try to unite the forces on a very small scale but with everything in the universe contained, I still think it's pretty good that people are at least considering other possiblities. Now that the Big Bang model may not even be correct, and the Inflationary model could become a contender for the crown of universal origin.

You mean stuff like colliding M-branes giving birth to new universes? That’s a bit over my head.

Seems like there’s provisional consensus that heat death will be the fate of our universe. But that’s not to say there isn’t a Multiverse, which is immortal and infinite. I’m intrigued that there’s modest (but accumulating) evidence in support of this idea.

 

[Rocketman]

After some more research into the work of Neil DeGrasse Tyson*, I'm here to tell you that the universe most certainly DOES have an end.

In fact, it's expanding, and since it's 14 billion years old, think of it like a balloon that someone is slowly blowing more and more air into - the balloon is expanding.

So, the universe has an end, it's just that we perceive it as infinite because it's so ****ing huge.

*Neil DeGrasse Tyson is one of the smartest physicists/people on the planet, and I trust him.

 

[raybia]

After some more research into the work of Neil DeGrasse Tyson*, I'm here to tell you that the universe most certainly DOES have an end.

In fact, it's expanding, and since it's 14 billion years old, think of it like a balloon that someone is slowly blowing more and more air into - the balloon is expanding.

So, the universe has an end, it's just that we perceive it as infinite because it's so ****ing huge.

*Neil DeGrasse Tyson is one of the smartest physicists/people on the planet, and I trust him.

So what you are saying is that eventually the Universe will suddenly "POP!" just like a balloon.

 

[raybia]

I believe in the cycles of life, death, and rebirth. If it were up to me, I'd say that even if the universe came to an end, it'd be born anew. Perhaps in a different shape or form. Perhaps on a different reality. But something will arise.

The whole idea of "everything that has a beginning has an end" is true, but consider our evidence for that 'beginning' or 'origin'. They're still theoretical. Perhaps the universe always existed and will continue to exist? Perhaps the same can be said about us. If 'nothing can come from nothing' then the cosmos would have always had to exist, but only through states of transformation.

It's like Batman becoming The Dark Knight.

On a Platonic level, the entire perception of the physical reality would then have to be subverted for a metaphysical reality, whose existence could very well prove the existence of the universe beyond it's projected 'end'. Very similar to monotheistic religious models.

To continue the dialectic of the 'Beginning/End' idea, it pretty much disagrees with the 'Void' since the Universe is said spatially and temporally unlimited. If nothing less can exist, it holds that the universe is singular. There were two Greek models pertaining to this, by Parmenides and Melissus, the former believed that the universe was limited and thus concentrated on the present, while the latter considered the universe in 'eternity', i.e. beyond time. It's a bit shady, but maybe they were both right and the present is the eternity?

Nevertheless, I don't think that whether the universe ends or not has nothing to do with our perception of its end. We'll always create a Doomsday-scenario, an Apocalypse, or Judgement Day, and we'll always place it in our minds as something that's far-off, away from NOW and from the PRESENT. Be it in religion, science, mythology, or simply in the stories we tell each other. That's why, in some crazy way, The Terminator series used to make sense. That is the mythical apocalypse, always deferred, forever there at the end of things.

I'll stop interjecting pop-cultural paradigms on philosophical postulation, but if you guys want to read more of these mind-bending questions and see some of the most qualified thinkers of the field failing miserably, I suggest heading up to the John Templeton Foundation's "Big Questions" essay series.

I like how Nolanites always find a way to interject Batman in any conversation regardless of the subject matter.

Joe: Looks like its going to rain today.

Nolanite: Batman rocks!!

Joe: Huh?

 

[childeroland]

Has Baum-Frampton's cyclical model and its connection to the Big Bounce been completely discredited then?

 

[Rocketman]

So what you are saying is that eventually the Universe will suddenly "POP!" just like a balloon.

No, it's just expanding. Our Hubble telescopes prove it. Things are showing farther distance, as if everything is stretching and moving away from us. It's quite literally a balloon being blown up ... or it's like a puddle that keeps getting wider with more added water.

Tyson describes it as being in the middle of the ocean and looking out onto the horizon, where you can see the earth curving. The horizon looks the same distance away from you no matter how many sides and angles you look around your boat. So from our perspective, it seems like we're in the dead center of the ocean, but really, no matter where you go on the planet, the horizon on all sides of you will make it look like you're in the center, because the horizon is the same distance away on all sides of you.

That "horizon" in the universe is getting farther and farther away, which means the point at which we ASSUME we're at the center stays the same, while everything else around us just stretches away. It's getting bigger, which means that there's an edge to it.

How long does it take to travel to the edge? 14 billion years, because that's how long the universe has existed. It takes 14 billion years to see the edge because it's taken 14 billions for it to expand as far as it has, since the Big Bang (it's expanding at the same rate, presumably).

So, the Big Bang is pretty much a fact.

What scares me is, what happens if you teleport me 14 billion years across the universe? If you eliminate the 14 billion years it takes for me to travel, and instead, just plop me over there with teleportation, what happens when I instantly arrive at the edge of the universe?

 

[Dr.]

That "horizon" in the universe is getting farther and farther away...

How long does it take to travel to the edge? 14 billion years, because that's how long the universe has existed. It takes 14 billion years to see the edge because it's taken 14 billions for it to expand as far as it has, since the Big Bang (it's expanding at the same rate, presumably).

That’s actually incorrect. The estimated diameter of the visible Universe is 93 billion light years. So the radius (between us at the “center” and the edge) would be about 46 billion light years. The discrepancy between this latter number and the age of the Universe (13.7 billion years) has to do with metric expansion.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

We were talking about this at work the other day and came across a simple way to understand it. Imagine the universe is the surface of a balloon that's slowly but constantly being inflated. We(Earth, our solar system, galaxy, etc) are just a tiny point on that surface so we can't notice the balloon getting bigger, but it is and will continue to forever.

 

[MrWayne]

Firstly, the Universe NEVER began because it always existed.

Yes, everything that has had a beginning does have a form of an end to it.

But those things that always existed, will all always exist.

There has always been existence, even if it was a speck of dust.