How could Burton's Gotham have been improved?

[BubbaGump]

I loved this shot from Returns.

But can someone post that establishing shot of the skyline in BR before we see the Cobblepots walking in the park? It was beautifully done.

 

[Darkest Knight]

thats awsome. its like a comic book come to life, love it.

So is Nolan's Gotham ...

Someone post a screen cap of Nolan's Gotham and the texture and multi-leveled layers, and compare it to the shot in Batman Year One where there is this dirty underbelly to the city, and an elevated train, etc.

i wish nolan would have taken this kind of appraoch to gotham instead of just going to chicago and saying "now THATS gotham!".

Because it is, they are about as similar as it gets in today's world. And for the billionth time, Nolan isn't trying to do what Burton did ... they have completely seperate artistic visions. So why wish otherwise?

love the homage to rockafellar center in Returns.

Yes, the naked men statues add a very nice quality.

BTW, I might be the only one, but Returns Gotham and B89's are totally different in design, coloration, etc.

Not to mention the entire thing feels like it's filmed in Wal-Mart. There is no sense of grand scale. No height, depth, or vertigo.

 

[fabman]

So is Nolan's Gotham ...

Someone post a screen cap of Nolan's Gotham and the texture and multi-leveled layers, and compare it to the shot in Batman Year One where there is this dirty underbelly to the city, and an elevated train, etc.


Because it is, they are about as similar as it gets in today's world. And for the billionth time, Nolan isn't trying to do what Burton did ... they have completely seperate artistic visions. So why wish otherwise?


Yes, the naked men statues add a very nice quality.

BTW, I might be the only one, but Returns Gotham and B89's are totally different in design, coloration, etc.

Not to mention the entire thing feels like it's filmed in Wal-Mart. There is no sense of grand scale. No height, depth, or vertigo.

You're not the only 1. Agreed!

 

[The-Dark-Knight]

I dont say this just because im a massive Batman fan but burtons Gothan in Batman designed by the late Anton Furst is simply perfect. Never have i seen a film since with such beautiful, amazing production design, it won an oscar too for it and it really really deserved it.

Calling Furst's Gotham amazing just dosent do it justice.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Yes, the naked men statues add a very nice quality.

BTW, I might be the only one, but Returns Gotham and B89's are totally different in design, coloration, etc.

Not to mention the entire thing feels like it's filmed in Wal-Mart. There is no sense of grand scale. No height, depth, or vertigo.

I liked the statues as well. Yeah you're right, Returns and B'89 both looked different in a way. Like it's been said a billion times, '89 was quite art deco while Returns was more German expressionist. As for their being no grand scale, look at the pics I posted on this page. In Returns, in the establishing shot when the words "Gotham City" appear at the bottom of the screen, you see just how big the city actually is. And at the end, when the camera rises up to Catwoman you see just how big the height was really is. So yes, you can keep that mention to yourself.

 

[union_jak]

People who say B89 and Returns aren't set in the same Gotham need to realise that it's not like the films feature the same locations.

B89 has a museum, a factory, a cathedral, a seedy district, City Hall and the theatre.

Returns has a zoo, a park, a commercial block, rooftops, sewers and a plaza.

Returns is set in a small area of Gotham, how many can say their city has the same look all over?

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Not to mention the entire thing feels like it's filmed in Wal-Mart.

Hah

 

[Catman]

If it were made to look less like a backlot or studio and more like a big, sprawling, open city that would've been better.

Agreed! Thats the one flaw! I love both Gothams, but that IS the flaw!

how many can say their city has the same look all over?

Good point

 

[Super_Ludacris]

Less Hammy I guess. More true to the mythology

 

[K.B.]

The only thing you could think to add is maybe some GCPD diragables. Burtons Gotham (especially 89) is PERFECT hands down straight from the comic.

The thing about gotham (and metroplois) is that unlike most super heros, theyre respective citys are as much a character as Gordon. Joker, Lois, Luthor etc.

Nolans gotham was terrible and looked more liek matroplois

 

[Mr. LOL]

Nolan's Gotham is downright disgusting. Which is the actual point of Gotham. It's not disturbing in its utter fantasy and exaggerated visuals. Its intimidating by the gritt and dirt to it, representing the realistic corruption and oppression. See the Narrows for an example. As for comic accuracy ... it is SPOT ON with Batman Year One, and The Killing Joke's Gotham City.

The tone and look of the city is spot on with Batman Year One. It's characterization is that of B:YO and TLH. So don't give me that crap. Shumacher's GC was accurate in looks to some books, but that doesn't mean it was the greatest. Not even close to the best characterization. Burton's Gotham in B89 is cool, however I have major beef with K-mart City in Returns. And paintings and mini models don't give you scale or true height and depth.

To be honest you guys are mad Gotham in Begins and TDK looks like Chicago ... but in terms of architexture, looks, utilities (like Gotham's elevated train) ... Gotham's look is strongly based on Chicago as opposed to Manhattan. Manhattan is more like Metropolis as opposed to Chicago which is more like Gotham.

Also, where is the wealthy Financial District? There is no seperation to the city. You know the parties Bruce goes to in the comics? He has to be able to go to parties with rich, corrupt politicians and businessmen ... where he not only goes about acting a fool as a playboy, but he's spying and gathering info. Creates an interesting dynamic for the character. Where do the rich and wealthy of Gotham hang out in the previous incarnations? The fact that there is a crisp clean financial district in Begins shows you the way the bad and wealthy of Gotham seperate themselves from the rest. Even going to the extent of putting the dirt poor on a seperate island and connecting it to the main land only by one bridge.

There is more meaning and purpose with Nolan's Gotham. Its making social and philisophical statements.

 

[CFE]

The thing that production designer Bo Welch said that I really like is the fact that Anton Furst's original Gotham is more nostalgic, while his own design is more facist.

Plus I'd like to point out that we're talking about a fictional city called "GOTHAM" where the term "Gothic" is most obviously implied.

Yes Gotham's based on existing metropolitian cities like NYC and Chicago. But it's fictional. When you're watching a Batman movie, you're not supposed to be able to stand up and say "Hey it looks like Chicago!"

That said, there's nothing remotely "GOTHAM" about "Begins."

Plus their are really unfortunate errors to it. I mean what would've been so difficult by calling Gotham's inner city by the right name?

It's called "CRIME ALLEY" ... not this "Narrows" business. Yeah I get it, cuz it's narrow har har...It was "Park Row" prior to the Wayne Murders and then it became "Crime Alley." Get it right, please....

CFE

 

[Mr. LOL]

Gotham doesn't neccessarily refer to "Gothic" ... that's a fabrication of the word and its meaning. Its a literal meaning, that I don't think was intended as so.

Plus, you refuse to acknowledge that Begins Gotham looks spot on like BYO and TKJ's Gotham City. Were those cities not Gotham?

And no one would call the city in Begins, Chicago, unless they knew it was filmed there. I live in Chicago, and I watched the movie with fellow Chicagoans who had no ****ing clue that it was actually Chicago used as the template for Gotham. So, you're wrong. Flat out. Did you call Metropolis in Superman The Movie, New York City? That's more reckognizably NYC then Gotham is Chi-town in BEGINs. Come on, flex those guns comicfilmexpert, lol.

Uhhh, the Narrows is a housing project by Arkham Asylum. Where dud you get they were substituting that for "Crime Alley"? No error there. In none of the movies is any alley reffered to as "crime alley". And quite frankly if GC is so corrupt and vicious, nearly every alley is a "crime alley" ... the label is quite redundant. But the area in which the Wayne's are killed wasn't in the narrows. It was outside of a theatre. Just like the source material.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

when did this thread topic turn into a Nolans Gotham vs. Burtons Gotham? Im pretty sure there is a seperate thread for that discusiion somewhere, because God forbid if we have a discussion on past movies without the end all of Batman directors Nolan being brought up.


There are always things that can be improved upon in a movie when it comes to a fans tastes. However, within the context of the 89 film, I feel Gotham was spot on and wouldnt change a thing. Gotham in Batman is supposed to be a city where crime and corruption is everywhere. Every business, around every corner. I think they showed that, especially with the opening scene. As was said in the film "Gotham City has become synonymous with crime." , or when Harvey makes the statement "..make Gotham City safe for decent poeple." and you see Jack making the remark that "decent people shouldnt live here." All of this would make me believe that there really isnt what you would call a "high society" location in Burtons Gotham. If there were such locals, I imagine them to be on the outskirts, like Wayne Manor was, but not within the city itself.

I also get the same feeling with Returns. Batman may be there, but there is also the crime and corruption within the city. As seen with Shrek and also the alley scene with Catwoman and the mugger. I feel that idea is also supported by Catwomans remark of "always waiting for some Bat-man to save you." The people still realize that the city is crime ridden but feel that they now have a protector that will always be there, but Gotham is still so massive and over ridden that Batman cannot be everywhere to save everyone. I agree that the set designs on Returns do look more they were built in a warehouse, but I also feel that it also helps convey how claustrophic the city is and how it can just squeeze the life out of its citizens.

 

[CFE]

Uhhh, the Narrows is a housing project by Arkham Asylum. Where dud you get they were substituting that for "Crime Alley"? No error there. In none of the movies is any alley reffered to as "crime alley". And quite frankly if GC is so corrupt and vicious, nearly every alley is a "crime alley" ... the label is quite redundant. But the area in which the Wayne's are killed wasn't in the narrows. It was outside of a theatre. Just like the source material.

*sigh*

Oh for god's sake...

In the books the Waynes were murdered in a front of a theatre IN PARK ROW...after their murder the neighborhood became the seediest and most crime infested fixture in Gotham, and was given the nickname "Crime Alley"

In "Begins" what's the seediest and most crime infested fixture? "The Narrows" ... but in the comics it's "Crime Alley" meaning that that's what it should've been called...

I'm beginning to wonder if Bat-Hypsters even READ the comics...

CFE

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

*sigh*

"HELLO...IS THERE ANYONE IN HERE WHO READS BATMAN COMICS?"



CFE

::raises hand::
oooh, oooh, me, me!!

 

[strikezone89]

I never said make it so bright that it yacked with the gothic vibe. I never even used the word 'bright'

A few added dim lamps during night if utilized in moderation would've been great.

i agree wit you man

 

[CFE]

::raises hand::
oooh, oooh, me, me!!

yeah...ShadowBat69, Kevin, El Payaso and Mr. Socko always seem to be the saving graces of the Bat forums more often than not...

CFE

 

[strikezone89]

Edit

 

[union_jak]

I thought Gotham was based on New York

Wasn't New York even called Gotham at one point??

 

[strikezone89]

I thought Gotham was based on New York

Wasn't New York even called Gotham at one point??

ya it was

 

[union_jak]

i dont think so

Now I know Wiki isn't a credible source at the best of times, but I believe this.

 

[CFE]

Prior to that the term "Gotham" had been used to refer to places with foolish inhabitants since as early as the mid-15th century.

The inhabitants of Gotham City WOULD have to be foolish to stay their wouldn't they...

CFE

 

[union_jak]

The inhabitants of Gotham City WOULD have to be foolish to stay their wouldn't they...

CFE

There was a village called Gotham in England during King John's reign. The locals acted like crazed lunatics to put the king off visiting them.

 

[CFE]

huh...you learn something new every day...

CFE