How could Burton's Gotham have been improved?

[union_jak]

huh...you learn something new every day...

CFE

Since typing that, I've found it on Wiki.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

yeah...ShadowBat69, Kevin, El Payaso and Mr. Socko always seem to be the saving graces of the Bat forums more often than not...

CFE

They all answer to LoHt.

heheh

I'd say that DocLathropBrown is one of the greatest posters when it comes to anything Burton or Keaton.

 

[Catman]

Gotham's look is strongly based on Chicago as opposed to Manhattan.

In the comics, Gotham, was never meant to look like Chicago. To me, Gotham, looks like Time Square back in the `70s. Go watch Taxi Driver and you'll see what Gotham is supposed to look like.

Now I know Wiki isn't a credible source at the best of times, but I believe this.

In terms of atmosphere, Batman writer and editor Dennis O'Neil has said that, figuratively, "Batman's Gotham City is Manhattan below Fourteenth Street at eleven minutes past midnight on the coldest night in November."[2]

 

[fabman]

I don't think Gotham is based on Chicago, but damn, Chicago is perfect. I mean, I watch 'Batman Begins' and I see Gotham City, the Gotham of 'Batman: Year One' and other gems.

The truth is, I accept and love a lot of versions of Batman, like I equally love Tim Burton's Batman and Christopher Nolan's Batman and think that the "Burtonite vs. Nolanite" stuff ridiculous.

 

[K.B.]

I honestly don't think 99.9% of hypsters read comics. Especially those that post in the comics forums.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

I honestly don't think 99.9% of hypsters read comics. Especially those that post in the comics forums.

Thats kinda funny isnt it? Especially when people point out "source material" and they havent read or even acknowledge the golden and silver age. I have fouind that most only read trades from the past 5 - 10 years. The only "old" stuff they even consider is what Nolan and Goyer may say they used as an influence. But this all for another discussion.

To stay on topic, Burtons Gotham rocks! lol

 

[K.B.]

^ I agree ...especially with the Burtons Gotham Rocks! part

 

[Catman]

I have fouind that most only read trades from the past 5 - 10 years. The only "old" stuff they even consider is what Nolan and Goyer may say they used as an influence.

I read some of the old issues on those "best of" books.

 

[ShaneHelms]

To stay on topic, Burtons Gotham rocks! lol

I Concur.

The 89 Cave was great along with the Returns Cave.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Great pics! I love the third one.

 

[BubbaGump]

This is a good one here.

 

[BubbaGump]

*sigh*

Oh for god's sake...

In the books the Waynes were murdered in a front of a theatre IN PARK ROW...after their murder the neighborhood became the seediest and most crime infested fixture in Gotham, and was given the nickname "Crime Alley"

In "Begins" what's the seediest and most crime infested fixture? "The Narrows" ... but in the comics it's "Crime Alley" meaning that that's what it should've been called...

I'm beginning to wonder if Bat-Hypsters even READ the comics...

CFE

I think he was saying that the Waynes weren't murdered in the Narrows. Just because the Narrows was the most crime-infested district of the city doesn't mean they were killed there.

But yeah, I like comics. :heart:

 

[CFE]

I think he was saying that the Waynes weren't murdered in the Narrows. Just because the Narrows was the most crime-infested district of the city doesn't mean they were killed there.

But yeah, I like comics. :heart:

Ehhh IDK...looking over "Begins" at least in a purely visual sense the local for the Wayne Murders and the Narrows bear an uncanny resemblence to one another.

CFE

 

[Dr. Fate]

I don't really have a preference with the various Gothams. They all look fine to me.

 

[BubbaGump]

Ehhh IDK...looking over "Begins" at least in a purely visual sense the local for the Wayne Murders and the Narrows bear an uncanny resemblence to one another.

CFE

That's a pretty vague assumption. Many areas of cities look similar to one another, especially in slum areas, which Gotham has plenty of. Crime Alley could've been anywhere, it was never really specified.

 

[CFE]

On the contrary I think it's very much so specified that "The Narrows" is the worst district in Gotham according to "Begins." And in comic book continuity, to which every form of Batman media was derived from, the Waynes were murdered in the worst district in Gotham.

And according to the comics it's "Crime Alley."

I was just putting two and two together. "The Narrows" is just a name Nolan and Goyer re-named "Crime Alley" with. Why I have no idea...

First the pronounciation of Ras' Al Ghul NOW the casting away of "Crime Alley." I just can't believe Nolan, Goyer and apparently Bat-Fans on SHH would just refuse to keep decades of comic books in mind.

Dennis O'Neal created Ras' Al Ghul and for 3 decades his name has been pronounced by his own creator and everyone involved with continuing Ras' use a certain way. Then suddenly "Begins" comes along and mis-pronounces that name and everyone thinks "Begins" is grounds enough to ignore it's pronounciation from now to back in the 70s.

And now same with "Crime Alley." "Crime Alley" is what "The Narrows" should've been called; fans who read the books and watched the animated series would be able to see that clearly.

*sigh*

CFE

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Well, the Narrows is an entire island, not just a single street. There's nothing to say that Crime Alley wasn't in The Narrows. It's just never explicitly stated as being so.

 

[BubbaGump]

I hate to veer off-topic, but this is an issue that must be addressed immediately.

Why Crime Alley Isn't In the Narrows

On the contrary I think it's very much so specified that "The Narrows" is the worst district in Gotham according to "Begins." And in comic book continuity, to which every form of Batman media was derived from, the Waynes were murdered in the worst district in Gotham.

First of all, what would an opera-house be doing in the Narrows in the first place? According to the Begins visual guide, the Narrows was an old housing project that was badly planned. I see no reason as to why they'd have an opera-house in the middle of the projects.

Second of all, a little research shows that there is no indication that the opera house was in the Narrows. The image below is one of the last shots before the movie transitions with the singing, then to the opera itself. The train is heading for Wayne Tower, and it's safe to assume that Crime Alley/the theater is there as well.

And if you look at other sources (the Batman Begins comic book adaptation), Bruce and family get off the train right in front of Wayne Enterprises--even more proof that Crime Alley is somewhere in that location.

And according to the comics it's "Crime Alley."

I was just putting two and two together. "The Narrows" is just a name Nolan and Goyer re-named "Crime Alley" with. Why I have no idea...

It has nothing to do with comic book accuracy. Nolan and Goyer made up the Narrows not to replace Crime Alley, but to make a new location that would suit the story better. Ra's wanted to attack the dirtiest, most infested part of the city first, so it was suitable to create a new location. In this case, the Narrows.

First the pronounciation of Ras' Al Ghul NOW the casting away of "Crime Alley." I just can't believe Nolan, Goyer and apparently Bat-Fans on SHH would just refuse to keep decades of comic books in mind.

Dennis O'Neal created Ras' Al Ghul and for 3 decades his name has been pronounced by his own creator and everyone involved with continuing Ras' use a certain way. Then suddenly "Begins" comes along and mis-pronounces that name and everyone thinks "Begins" is grounds enough to ignore it's pronounciation from now to back in the 70s.

And now same with "Crime Alley." "Crime Alley" is what "The Narrows" should've been called; fans who read the books and watched the animated series would be able to see that clearly.

I really don't see what the Ra's Al Ghul mispronounciation has to do with anything.

I'm not defending Nolan here, but what's wrong with creating a new setting in Gotham City? He didn't ignore the Crime Alley reference from the comics--it's still THERE, as I showed in the pictures above. He didn't take away that, he ADDED a new district to the city, making the setting that much richer.

The Narrows is not Crime Alley. The area where the Waynes got killed which was:

-Outside the theater...
-Near Wayne Tower...

...IS Crime Alley, it just wasn't downright given a name or even referred to for that matter. The Narrows is something else entirely.

That's all I have to say on this subject. You may now proceed to on-topic goodness.

 

[echostation]

Back to Burton's Gotham... Batman 89's Gotham was much better in terms of scale and overall look than Batman REturns. I just saw Returns the other day and while I actually have really grown fond of the film (hated it earlier), the one problem still lies, the sets look great but too in-house... too studio, on the special features Denise De Novi bangs on about how they wanted to make it more fantastic, LARGER, grander visual spectacle but it wasn't... it was smaller, more cramped sort of like Singer's style of shot taking in action and not wider more open shots like Burton did in Batman 89 where we get a real sense of Gotham instead of a series of disconnected indoor very pretty looking sets.

I just wish they used some larger grand scale shots or more outdoors or larger studios. In this fashion, Begins' Gotham (the worst of the three as in Begins vs 89 vs REturns) really scores a big victory (and only) over Returns here in that the scale and size of it can be felt... it's LARGE and doesn't feel cramped in. I still love Returns' look overall of the sets much better than Begins, but the size of Gotham and the feel of that size and length and depth and area is so much better than Returns.

 

[Catman]

Thats what I hate about Nolan's Gotham. How is that supposed to be Gotham City?! Seriously. Not even the animated series went with such a "grounded" approach.

[YT]En2mJ9BqfU4[/YT]

 

[CFE]

*sigh*

Crime Alley isn't in The Narrows

Crime Alley IS The Narrows. They're both the same. Nolan and Co. just gave the district itself a different name.

And the pronunciation of Ras' name was to solidify the fact that "Begins" purists use the film as grounds to ignore the comic mythology.

Ras' name is pronounced a certain way for 30 years, yet one film (Begins) pronounces it another way and suddenly everyone thinks THAT's the way it should be pronounced...

The neighborhood has been known as Crime Alley for however many decades, yet one film (Begins) re-names it The Narrows and suddenly everyone forgets the name Crime Alley...

this falls into that "Begins is Overrated" topic...

CFE

 

[BubbaGump]

Crime Alley is where the Waynes were killed. They were not murdered in the Narrows.

I hate how this has become into a "Batman Begins is overrated" and a "BB ignored the comics" argument for no reason. Anyone remember who killed the Waynes in B89. Yeah--Joker. But of course Burton can do no wrong in the Misc. Batman Films section.

Let's just get back on topic. Geez.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Thats what I hate about Nolan's Gotham. How is that supposed to be Gotham City?! Seriously. Not even the animated series went with such a "grounded" approach.

I agree. While I think it works well for Nolan's world, his Gotham is really nothing special. It basically looks like any other big city with sky scrapers. If you see that picture while searching through a database about New York or Chicago, you probably would really think that was it. Discarding Returns, B'89's Gotham really did feel like a city of it's own, something that screams "Gotham." Returns Gotham did go overboard in several ways but B'89 had that Gotham style, and good style unlike Schumacher's.

Crime Alley is where the Waynes were killed. They were not murdered in the Narrows.

I hate how this has become into a "Batman Begins is overrated" and a "BB ignored the comics" argument for no reason. Anyone remember who killed the Waynes in B89. Yeah--Joker. But of course Burton can do no wrong in the Misc. Batman Films section.

Let's just get back on topic. Geez.

You obviously haven't been around here long, have you? There are several threads in which we critique and analyze the negative things of the Anthology.

 

[BubbaGump]

You obviously haven't been around here long, have you? There are several threads in which we critique and analyze the negative things of the Anthology.

Yeah, I've been reading here quite a bit. It was a joke--take a chill pillz.

 

[I-T-B]

*sigh*

Crime Alley isn't in The Narrows

Crime Alley IS The Narrows. They're both the same. Nolan and Co. just gave the district itself a different name.

And the pronunciation of Ras' name was to solidify the fact that "Begins" purists use the film as grounds to ignore the comic mythology.

Ras' name is pronounced a certain way for 30 years, yet one film (Begins) pronounces it another way and suddenly everyone thinks THAT's the way it should be pronounced...

The neighborhood has been known as Crime Alley for however many decades, yet one film (Begins) re-names it The Narrows and suddenly everyone forgets the name Crime Alley...

this falls into that "Begins is Overrated" topic...

CFE

They're not the same at all. As Bubba said, the Waynes were killed in an alley behind the opera house, somewhere around the general area of Wayne tower. The Narrows are a poorly built project on an island. Who in their right mind would put an opera house on an out of the way island populated mostly by the poorer people, rather than near the center of Gotham? Seems as if that would be bad for business.

And even if the Waynes were murdered somewhere in the Narrows (which they weren't), this still doesn't contradict the comics. The term "Narrows," refers to the entire island, not just one alley. The alley in which the Waynes were murdered could still be Crime Alley, they just never make mention of it in the film.

But yeah, I love Burton's Gotham, it was near perfection. Now the animated series Gotham, THAT was perfection. Burton needed blimps.