The Dark Knight Rises How could the Lazarus pits work in Nolan's final batfilm?

[FCEEVIPER]

I'm going to laugh when this photo turns out to be faked.

Or the green pit turns out it has nothing to do with the film itself.

 

[Dr. Jackstraw]

God, I certainly hope so. This whole Lazarus thing is laughable. It ain't happenin' folks. No way.

 

[BrazilianBatFan]

Maybe we will see the pit but not as it is in the comic books. It could be just mentioned as a place the League uses to relax and meditate in the scenes with young Ra's. This way they would pay kind of an homenage to the comic books.

 

[KRIM]

I hadn't realized so many fans were so dismissive and outright ashamed of a core aspect to Ra's story. I wonder if this is more of an aversion to the supernatural, or to this misguided fear that Nolan's world loses its integrity by the inclusion of such elements.

 

[JAK®]

I hadn't realized so many fans were so dismissive and outright ashamed of a core aspect to Ra's story. I wonder if this is more of an aversion to the supernatural, or to this misguided fear that Nolan's world loses its integrity by the inclusion of such elements.

I'm not ashamed of anything. I would love it if the Lazarus Pit was introduced just as it is in the comics, but I simply don't believe it will happen. The reasoning why the pit could be introduced given in this thread, I don't agree with, because it's flawed thinking.

 

[KRIM]

I'm not ashamed of anything. I would love it if the Lazarus Pit was introduced just as it is in the comics, but I simply don't believe it will happen. The reasoning why the pit could be introduced given in this thread, I don't agree with, because it's flawed thinking.

Well, as is, the Pits don't have much to offer by means of plausibility. Or is it remaining unknown how you'd prefer it?

 

[JAK®]

Well, as is, the Pits don't have much to offer by means of plausibility. Or is it remaining unknown how you'd prefer it?

Right now, I just think Nolan should make this movie the way he wants to make it. This is his last movie, so there's no point in changing the rules now. I would have no reason as a fan to object to him adapting the pits as they appear in the comics, but as a viewer it would confuse me why all of a sudden there are supernatural elements in a formerly grounded story.

 

[Rayne]

I love the idea of the Pit, I love the idea of Ra's returning - just please bring back Liam Neeson - and I really like the idea that not only could the substance of the Lazarus Pit be tied to how Bane's "Venom" works, but also as a way to "heal" Bruce Wayne...after Bane breaks him.

A Chris Nolan Batman movie that ties together the aftermatch of Joker/Two-Face with Ra's Al Ghul and Knightfall, with a little Catwoman thrown in?

I'm sold.

 

[bgates87]

I imagine the Lazurus Pit being part of a ritual or something, like an initiation into the League of Shadows. It might be a natural spring with special minerals in it or something but I doubt the pit will have any supernatural healing/resurrecting powers. Any transformation that would occur as a result of entering the pit would be purely symbolic as part of a baptism/ablution/whatever.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

LOL, it's cute that people thought the greenscreen was the Lazarus Pit.

Why would Nolan have to CG a Lazarus Pit? It's just a bunch of bubbly liquid. If he could make a Batmobile that works, he could boil some green water.

 

[KRIM]

Right now, I just think Nolan should make this movie the way he wants to make it. This is his last movie, so there's no point in changing the rules now. I would have no reason as a fan to object to him adapting the pits as they appear in the comics, but as a viewer it would confuse me why all of a sudden there are supernatural elements in a formerly grounded story.

Suddenly? I don't think it's really possible to gradually introduce that into a universe. There's a distinctive line that separates the two. Once you cross it, that's it.

I think it's unfair to consider it as retroactively changing the rules. Clearly the pits were not relevant to the story of BB, so its existence was not necessary. You can't expect they provide a complete, unedited, and ubiquitous set of established rules all from the get-go.

Readers were fine with it in the comics. In the coming weeks, you'll see that everyone else was fine with it while watching Thor. By next year when Avengers hits, that line of thinking will be in the extreme minority. So as long as it's executed in a manner that doesn't blatantly come off like someone is running out of ideas, or just throwing s--t at the wall, viewers will be fine. Each idea should be treated carefully and keep the consistency that the narrative foundations have stayed true to. If anyone knows how to pull that off sensibly, it will be Nolan.

I would heavily applaud him for getting this far considering how it all started. And especially when fandom has taken it upon themselves to box this universe in to standards that they've created and falsely attributed to Chris.

 

[JAK®]

Suddenly? I don't think it's really possible to gradually introduce that into a universe. There's a distinctive line that separates the two. Once you cross it, that's it.

Which is why it's strange to introduce it now.

I think it's unfair to consider it as retroactively changing the rules. Clearly the pits were not relevant to the story of BB, so its existence was not necessary. You can't expect they provide a complete, unedited, and ubiquitous set of established rules all from the get-go.

Yes you can. It's called consistency. Have you not heard of Deus Ex Machina? It's frowned upon for a reason.

Readers were fine with it in the comics. In the coming weeks, you'll see that everyone else was fine with it while watching Thor. By next year when Avengers hits, that line of thinking will be in the extreme minority.

Comics are a serial format that last decades, with different artists and writers. There is more breathing room for this sort of thing.

Thor has absolutely nothing to do with it. Yes, the Marvel Universe has had no supernatural elements until he came along. The difference is he has a film to himself to justify that. It's a continuing, universe building narrative. It's not like it was Iron Man 3 and suddenly he's fighting Fin Fang Foom.

I would heavily applaud Nolan for getting this far considering how it all started. And especially when fandom has taken it upon themselves to box this universe in to standards that they've created and falsely attributed to Chris.

Don't you dare accuse me of being one of the Nolan zealots. I'm aware of the mentality you're talking about, and I've criticised it in the past. The fact is, Nolan has made these movies realistic from the beginning. Not as realistic as some stupid fans would have you believe, but realistic nonetheless. I'm not saying that Nolan will never do such a thing, but there's no indication that he will.

Nolan spent half of Batman begins justifying why Bruce dresses up like a bat. There's no way he's going to introduce a magic pit that brings people back from the dead, as awesome as it is.

 

[TheVileOne]

Is the movie going to be too crammed with all this in there? I mean you a lot going on in the first movie and all, but still.

 

[KRIM]

Which is why it's strange to introduce it now.

Yes you can. It's called consistency. Have you not heard of Deus Ex Machina? It's frowned upon for a reason.

Deus Ex Machina is a whole different breed. It's a plot device created out of thin air in the last moment. It's frowned upon because by nature it's lazy and exists only as a means to solve some impossible scenario. That has nothing to do with introducing a new element to the game, that still functions under the same governing rules.

Comics are a serial format that last decades, with different artists and writers. There is more breathing room for this sort of thing.

It's not about breathing room as there is little space to gradually introduce and explain it. You're either in a world where the supernatural exists, or you're not. Telling it in story #3,584,228 is no different than doing it in #3. The same hurdles exist.

Thor has absolutely nothing to do with it. Yes, the Marvel Universe has had no supernatural elements until he came along. The difference is he has a film to himself to justify that. It's a continuing, universe building narrative. It's not like it was Iron Man 3 and suddenly he's fighting Fin Fang Foom.

TDKR can function as that film. The Pits aren't nearly as intrusive or as complex as an entire mythical world. It's relevant to one character and for the most part is exclusive to the Batman lore. There isn't this extensive history that bogs things down. Literally takes an entire minute for the concept to be properly introduced and understood.

It took Marvel one film to completely throw the book out the window and let audiences know that this universe is a exponentially bigger and fantastical than previously conceived, with regards to the relatively grounded Iron Man franchise. The gap they traversed to bridge those two concepts together could not be any larger and wilder. All signs are pointing to a success.

The only people that seem to have such a huge issue over this are unimaginative and close-minded fans.

Don't you dare accuse me of being one of the Nolan zealots.

I haven't. You will note I didn't specify any specific person(s). I was criticizing the mentality, nothing more.

I'm aware of the mentality you're talking about, and I've criticised it in the past. The fact is, Nolan has made these movies realistic from the beginning. Not as realistic as some stupid fans would have you believe, but realistic nonetheless. I'm not saying that Nolan will never do such a thing, but there's no indication that he will.

Nolan spent half of Batman begins justifying why Bruce dresses up like a bat. There's no way he's going to introduce a magic pit that brings people back from the dead, as awesome as it is.

Conflicting statements.

In any case, clearly I and many others disagree with that assessment of his direction. The pits are evidently where the line goes too far for you. Personally, with minor adjustments I see it as complementary to the science fiction injected in the series. If anything, it's a welcoming evolution of the ever expanding universe.

None of the discussions here will ever truly end it. As always, Chris actively bringing it to life is the only way everyone will realize "ok, so it is possible". Whether he goes through with it or not is up in the air. But even if he doesn't, I personally will stand firm that it was a viable direction to take without heavy sacrifices.

 

[FCEEVIPER]

I hadn't realized so many fans were so dismissive and outright ashamed of a core aspect to Ra's story. I wonder if this is more of an aversion to the supernatural, or to this misguided fear that Nolan's world loses its integrity by the inclusion of such elements.

Signed.

 

[Alex Logan]

Or the green pit turns out it has nothing to do with the film itself.

Exactly. On and on goes the discussion about the pit. When it's all said and done this will have been a huge waste of EVERYONE'S time.

 

[Motown Marvel]

They set no precedent that they are not either.

yeah, uh, thats kinda the problem. you cant just suddenly be like "oh, by the way, we forgot to tell you, in this world cell phones do this scientifically impossible thing. we kinda need them to do that because we have this cheap way of wrapping up the movie." and the reason why they dont do that is because the whole idea itself is completely stupid and they hope for the audience to gloss over it while they're distracted by how cool heath ledger is as the joker.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in Nolan's movies have come close to the type of fantasy as the Lazarus Pit. Fear toxin is not even in the same hemisphere of fantasy as a pit of chemicals that revives a person to live for centuries. It is magic. Total and utter fantasy. Right up there with Clayface and Man Bat.

well, actually, there is science behind the idea of rejuvenating dying cells to a healthy state. it even happens in nature, as others have mentioned. and well, you're gonna see the progression of that in medical science long before you see a billionaire dressing up like a bat to wage a one man vendetta against crime.

 

[Banana-Hotdog]

LOL, it's cute that people thought the greenscreen was the Lazarus Pit.

Why would Nolan have to CG a Lazarus Pit? It's just a bunch of bubbly liquid. If he could make a Batmobile that works, he could boil some green water.

 

[RoughNTumble]

LOL, it's cute that people thought the greenscreen was the Lazarus Pit.

Why would Nolan have to CG a Lazarus Pit? It's just a bunch of bubbly liquid. If he could make a Batmobile that works, he could boil some green water.

If he could do a lazarus pit with practical effects, what is it that he's using a green screen for?

 

[wikum]

Fear gas is a hallucinogen, it causes you to experience fear and paranoia. There are several real life drugs that do similar things.

A microwave emitter that vaporises water is also theoretically possible. They messed up by not having the microwave have a negative effect on humans, but that's movie science for you.

Phones emit signals, and they do have the capacity to track your location, TDK stretched those facts by making them emit sonar.

There is no real life equivalent of the Lazarus pit. The pit is pure magic, and has always been presented as magic. It's a different thing entirely.

exactly. the film tells you the rules of the world, and as long as they are kept to, the film remains believable and well done. it's the minute when you change the rules that you feel like the film is ****ing you.

a perfect example is the matrix trilogy. without going into great detail, the first matrix film presents a real world that has crazy machines and farms of human batteries, yet is believable because it's set in an alternative reality. all of the stuff that defies the laws of gravity/physics happens in the matrix itself. then in the sequels, they ruin everything. in the real world, neo starts being able to destroy sentinels by mind control, and can see agent smith despite the fact he's blind. it sticks two fingers up at the people who've invested in the rules that the directors had presented them with in the original matrix film.

...which is why i'd leave the lazarus pit out of the dark knight rises.

one day, i'd love someone to make a batman film that's stylised in a unique way (think along the lines of sin city). this is the place we can have stuff like manbat, clayface and lazarus pits. but until then, let's leave them out of tdkr please.

 

[gazzilla8000]

Nolan stretches science fiction in his Batman movies as far as he can while still sounding relatively plausible.

However, a magical pit of mud that grants immortality, strength and youth is so far out of the realms of grounded sci-fi that audiences (including myself) would baulk at the screen and refuse to accept it within the context of Nolan's established universe.

If this is the Lazarus Pit I will personally buy Nolan an entire wardrobe of high quality vests. Although, even I must admit - it sure does look like one.

 

[jmc]

Watch it turn out to be absolutely nothing.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

You don't have to have a plane to use an ADS weapon, which some would commonly refer to as a "microwave emitter", even though they don't use actual microwaves.

But encase you don't know, here's the definition, Bill Nye:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

http://www.skewsme.com/energy_weapons.html


And they look like this:

[YT]xyTehuk5p2c[/YT]

You can also look up more links to ADS weapons, and again, if you watch the BB extras, you'll see that Nolan even used these as reference to his movies. But hey, what do I know, these can only be used on planes, and not controlled by the Humvees like they normally are, because everybody would melt, especially when people are operating them from the Humvees like normal.

Could they make the beam hotter, and have the effects similar to what we see in BB? Of course, but hey, that's apparently "nigh impossible". As apposed to what you're saying about the Pit, I'm sorry, but ADS weapons are real, while a Lazarus pit is not, which, is why I rolled my eyes. To say they are far less plausible is laughable. And that's my point: Who are you to say that technology is less plausible than actual fantasy?

Hallucinogens? Check.

ADS/microwave emitter? Check

Lazarus pit? ..............

Those are microwave emitters of much smaller scale and potential, as you rightly pointed out, they are used for crowd control, exciting (and literally boiling) the water within the body causing intense, catastrophic pain. But on the scale they are used in Batman Begins, to cause widespread damage, to not just people but equipment, yes they do have to be mounted on planes as they require much more energy.

So that's energy weapons. Check.

Batman Begins energy weapons. BS

Principals that govern the Lazarus Pit. Check.

The pit itself. BS.

 

[Hierofan]

I hope it's more of a cleansing thing for Ra's; something like this:

Lazarus Pits were accidentally discovered by Ra's al Ghul in an effort to cure a dying prince of the sultan he worked for. Ra's al Ghul dug a pit where he discovered the restorative chemical pools that he dubbed a Lazarus Pit for its abilities to heal those at death's door. After using the pit to save the life of the prince, a side effect of the pit's restorative abilities revealed itself as the prince went mad and killed Ra's al Ghul's wife, Sora. Blamed for his wife's murder, Ra's al Ghul was left to die, buried in the desert, but was soon rescued by his own tribe and a boy named Huwe.He goes back to the pit and baths in it,i for one want it to be just a symoblic gesture;he comes out just changed.. Afterward, he used the tribe to gain vengeance for what happened to him and proceeded to call himself the Ra's al Ghul.

Years later we see a heavely dressed figure talk to some old man at night,he just points towards some mountains/ hills. In the next shot we see between cliffs at night, as this person walks from the light emitting pit; standing just in front of it in awe.

Cut to years early, right when Ra's came for the first time out of the pit, you can see in his eyes that something is different (i would play it as he changed as a person, not those super healing scifi crap).
Cut back to
The person standing still in front in awe, sweeping music (the prestige comes to mind, the shot where Angier first sees his machine in hotel lobby)

 

[Travesty]

LOL, it's cute that people thought the greenscreen was the Lazarus Pit.

Why would Nolan have to CG a Lazarus Pit? It's just a bunch of bubbly liquid. If he could make a Batmobile that works, he could boil some green water.

I really don't know what it is(I don't think it's the pit), but I'm not following your logic. You say Nolan doesn't have to use CG because The Tumbler isn't in CG(even though there are shots where it is), but at the same time, he's using that green screen for CG.