How Does One Achieve Spiritual Salvation - Discussion Thread - all views welcome

[SentinelMind]

I think the discussion going on in the other thread is creating a distraction against initial purpose of the thread...so it will be brought out here. This thread allows, among other things, us opportunity to fix poor misinterpretations of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

does it say "thus death spread to all men" or "thus sin spread to all men"?
there is the natural consequence to sin: death of the flesh. that was given to all humanity.
there is the spiritual consequence to sin: death of the soul. one only spiritually dies when they sin. a newborn infant cannot sin for it does not know the difference between good and evil.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

again, plural refers to man in general, not Adam.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

those who walk according to the course of this world are by nature children of wrath... not once does it say we are born inherently sinful

How can one be naturely sinful but not inherently sinful? What does this distinction mean? Our flesh is naturally sinful.

John 3 talks about 2 births prior to salvation...birth of water...and birth by spirit. Prior to birth by spirit, you are not saved. Birth by spirit is selection process of God...Holy Spirit capturing your heart upon His timeline..not yours. You don't even realize its happening when it happens...then there is no turning back.

John 3
King James Version (KJV)

1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Note, the last line says, shall not perish...it says have eternal life...there's no exception there...the word probably or maybe isn't in John 3:15. If Lordship Salvation was true, which is what SuperKal is preaching, those words would be inserted into that line of the Bible...and then the entire passage creates an entirely different meaning. I say we stick to the original text.

 

[Warhammer]

I'm not going to lie. I think we debated the hell out of that last thread. But who am I kidding? It's religion. There will always be debates.

 

[SentinelMind]

Normally, I would agree....mostly in political issues I'll drop it.....but when it comes to issue of salvation, I think some people can be led astray if they don't follow Gospel properly. Lot of people out there thinking their self-righteous and can work their way into heaven...and that is one reason they lose connection with God, because they think the burden of following God is just way too hard. The Bible is clear that this self-righteous work-based salvation will lead them into destruction.

In fact, I use to feel very frustrated when I couldn't stop sinning in some areas...I wasn't a good student of Bible. It made sense when my current pastor explained that Lordship Salvation is false doctrine....I don't want people thinking following Jesus is this extreme endeavor, where you have to do this and that and this and that, and if you don't, God will forsake you. That's not the Gospel. The Gospel is believing God will forgive you.

We have responsibility to do what Jesus says...that love and trust will build itself and create fruit that will bring others closer to God...but the entire purpose is building that trust.....not to build some earthly kingdom or boast of our perfection. Lordship salvation is lie that creates requirement you have to be superman to be saved, which frustrates confused believers and can lead them into giving up entirely.

 

[bullets]

A few years ago my life took a turn for the worse and like my parents had done a couple years prior to that I turned to Christianity. I wanted to believe in the almighty and atone for my sins. I was a good disciple ,but couldn't give up my life completely. I still came to this site ( which is counteractive ) and would watch movies. I couldn't completely change who I was. The people at church started to seem phony. There was a false sense of entitlement and only a select few were active "soul winners". So out of a small enough group of individuals it was an even smaller amount who weren't living in sin ( to my knowledge). Eventually I started to realize I was manipulated by guilt. It seems so obvious now , but at the time being "saved" took a weight off my shoulders.

 

[The Question]

I don't know exactly how the universe came into existence or if there is a cosmic plan or what it would be if there is one. But I think that if there is such a thing as spiritual salvation, no one's going to get it if they don't treat every person they meet and every person they'll never meet as a human being, and no one's going to get it if they don't accept more than one kind of idea. "Othering" people isn't worthy of any kind of salvation in my book.

 

[NickNitro]

As a devote Christian growing up, and now as an adult, I see the Bible as a guide for humanity, not one to persecute/damn or belittle other's who don't see our way. Far too often is the word of Christ, written centuries ago for a time we know not of anymore, taken soo literal that we barely understand its true meaning. We are to love one another, treat others as we shall want to be treated, and live harmoniously on this planet. As a species, not as a group/clan/tribe as we have split ourselves into.

Its sad, and ironic at the same time, that the idea of Religion is good, but the practice of Religion has only lead to war, bigotry, persecution, and damnation. I'm not just talking about Christianity, I'm talking about all religions We are all centered around a few common goals, its the details that we fight over, the nit picking that we kill over, the minute passages of our different scriptures we would happily cause suffering over.

 

[nouan]

I don't believe in heaven nor hell, nor do I think that I am spiritual being, therefor I don't see any reason for any kind of salvation.

 

[bullets]

I think the problem is that people don't want to believe their own doctrine. There are Christians who pick and choose the parts of the bible they like. Don't preach the bible if you aren't willing to stand by it. The irony is that if the devil existed this type of dissension would be his true intention. look at the Westboro baptist church. They misrepresent the bible and don't even properly quote scripture. It's ridiculous , but this is what people pay attention to and it gives all Christians a bad name. Your supposed to be tactful , not confrontational. I think shouting at people from across the street is plain ignorance.





Anyone could pick up a bible and find something they agree with or take away from it. However I think distorting the message or oversimplifying the book is offensive.

Where are the Bible believers?


[YT]=eHwEqUemw2g[/YT]

 

[bullets]

I don't believe in heaven nor hell, nor do I think that I am spiritual being, therefor I don't see any reason for any kind of salvation.

I think , Therefore I am.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Its sad, and ironic at the same time, that the idea of Religion is good, but the practice of Religion has only lead to war, bigotry, persecution, and damnation. I'm not just talking about Christianity, I'm talking about all religions

What about Buddhism, or other eastern religions? My impression is that they break this pattern.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I think , Therefore I am.

That quote doesn't actually apply here.

 

[NickNitro]

What about Buddhism, or other eastern religions? My impression is that they break this pattern.

I view religion as believing and worshiping in deities to help us find salvation, isn't Buddhism more so that we are our own God, and we find our spiritual oneness not in another other worldly being, but in our own souls?

I have to say though I find Buddhism the closest thing to what true religion should be on this earth.

 

[bullets]

That quote doesn't actually apply here.

would you prefer "I am what I am and that's all I am "

 

[Doctor Evo]

I view religion as believing and worshiping in deities to help us find salvation, isn't Buddhism more so that we are our own God, and we find our spiritual oneness not in another other worldly being, but in our own souls?

I have to say though I find Buddhism the closest thing to what true religion should be on this earth.

I don't believe that religion is explicitly defined as worship of a deity or deities, but if that is your working definition, there's the example of Shinto.

Taking your definition as-is, it seems that you've inherently limited it to Western monotheistic religions.

 

[Doctor Evo]

would you prefer "I am what I am and that's all I am "

Well, I don't think that phrase actually has any meaning, but sure. It's probably more relevant in some sense.

 

[NickNitro]

Hindu, Sik, and Jainsim have more Gods then the rest of the religions combined.

If you are trying to say that my "western" view on religion is a Christian view then you're wrong.

 

[bullets]

Well, I don't think that phrase actually has any meaning, but sure. It's probably more relevant in some sense.

I was being facetious. The guy came into the thread and made a very obvious statement.

 

[The Question]

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

That's my favorite prayer. It's the closest thing to a roadmap to salvation (whatever that means) that makes any sense to me.

 

[BestGirl]

I don't know exactly how the universe came into existence or if there is a cosmic plan or what it would be if there is one. But I think that if there is such a thing as spiritual salvation, no one's going to get it if they don't treat every person they meet and every person they'll never meet as a human being, and no one's going to get it if they don't accept more than one kind of idea. "Othering" people isn't worthy of any kind of salvation in my book.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

That's my favorite prayer. It's the closest thing to a roadmap to salvation (whatever that means) that makes any sense to me.

These are two wonderful posts.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

As a devote Christian growing up, and now as an adult, I see the Bible as a guide for humanity, not one to persecute/damn or belittle other's who don't see our way. Far too often is the word of Christ, written centuries ago for a time we know not of anymore, taken soo literal that we barely understand its true meaning. We are to love one another, treat others as we shall want to be treated, and live harmoniously on this planet. As a species, not as a group/clan/tribe as we have split ourselves into.

Its sad, and ironic at the same time, that the idea of Religion is good, but the practice of Religion has only lead to war, bigotry, persecution, and damnation. I'm not just talking about Christianity, I'm talking about all religions We are all centered around a few common goals, its the details that we fight over, the nit picking that we kill over, the minute passages of our different scriptures we would happily cause suffering over.

I don't see an irony there. A good idea is only truly good only if its execution is. Good idea with a bad execution is a bad idea. Other way to say it is that good intentions pave the road to hell.





I see this as a linguistic trap. We think of salvation only because someone convinced the world that it was condemned. If you're condemned you need salvation, otherwise it's unnecessary. About that I only think the condemnation stuff is nothing but bs. It's just a concept that's not to be questioned, and on that concept religions can build a series of rules for the world to obey, obtaining this way the power of collective obedience.

But the concept is already installed, so the way to achieve salvation is opening your eyes and stop seeing what others want you to see. There's no condemnation, therefore no salvation is there to be achieved.

 

[NickNitro]

I don't see an irony there. A good idea is only truly good only if its execution is. Good idea with a bad execution is a bad idea. Other way to say it is that good intentions pave the road to hell.

Really? Its not ironic to you that the basis of all religion is compassion, care, hope, and salvation yet we have Jews and Arab's killing each other in the millions for centuries because of the Holy Land, we had the Crusades, where Catholics would go from pagan town to pagan town conquering anyone who believed in the old Gods to try and spread Catholicism through bloodshed and force. None of that seems ironic to you? We kill in the name of our God in the hopes to spread the word, or strike fear in the non believers, yet we teach our followers that our God(s) frown upon those who teach hatred, that there should be lite instead of dark.

To me that's pretty much the definition of irony.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Really? Its not ironic to you that the basis of Arab's killing each other in the millions for centuries because of the Holy Land, we had the Crusades, where Catholics would go from pagan town to pagan town conquering anyone who believed in the old Gods to try and spread Catholicism through bloodshed and force. None of that seems ironic to you? We kill in the name of our God in the hopes to spread the word, or strike fear in the non believers, yet we teach our followers that our God(s) frown upon those who teach hatred, that there should be lite instead of dark.

To me that's pretty much the definition of irony.

I'll explain my point:

Some religions talk a lot about compassion, care, hope, and salvation. But few of them are actually based on that. They're actually based on spreading fear and achieve collective control through that. And through collective control achieve power. And that's why poverty, hunger, greed and death have not been eradicated, and religions have God himself, the one most powerful being in the universe, mind you.

If they actually were about compassion and care, I'd agree with you. But they're about power and greed, and there you have the natural results of that.

 

[Warhammer]

Hmm, how does one achieve spiritual salvation?

Personally, I believe that I am going to Heaven. I am a non-denominational Protestant. Do I believe that Heaven is limited to Christians? Nope, not at all. It doesn't matter how many Bible verses get brought up, how many testimonies I hear, or how many higher authorities in Christianity (preachers, bishops, priests, nuns, etc.) tell me otherwise. I do not believe that good non-religious people in this world nor devout followers of other religions simply go to Hell. I just can't believe that it works that way. My father is a devout Muslim. I refuse to believe that he is damned to Hell. If not believing that only Christians go to Heaven is a sin, then I honestly couldn't care less. It'll be something I'll answer for when I get up there. Call it picking or choosing. It doesn't really matter.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Hmm, how does one achieve spiritual salvation?

Personally, I believe that I am going to Heaven. I am a non-denominational Protestant. Do I believe that Heaven is limited to Christians? Nope, not at all. It doesn't matter how many Bible verses get brought up, how many testimonies I hear, or how many higher authorities in Christianity (preachers, bishops, priests, nuns, etc.) tell me otherwise. I do not believe that good non-religious people in this world nor devout followers of other religions simply go to Hell. I just can't believe that it works that way. My father is a devout Muslim. I refuse to believe that he is damned to Hell. If not believing that only Christians go to Heaven is a sin, then I honestly couldn't care less. It'll be something I'll answer for when I get up there. Call it picking or choosing. It doesn't really matter.

I call it independent thought, and I think it's admirable.

 

[bullets]

Hmm, how does one achieve spiritual salvation?

Personally, I believe that I am going to Heaven. I am a non-denominational Protestant. Do I believe that Heaven is limited to Christians? Nope, not at all. It doesn't matter how many Bible verses get brought up, how many testimonies I hear, or how many higher authorities in Christianity (preachers, bishops, priests, nuns, etc.) tell me otherwise. I do not believe that good non-religious people in this world nor devout followers of other religions simply go to Hell. I just can't believe that it works that way. My father is a devout Muslim. I refuse to believe that he is damned to Hell. If not believing that only Christians go to Heaven is a sin, then I honestly couldn't care less. It'll be something I'll answer for when I get up there. Call it picking or choosing. It doesn't really matter.

It just seems unfair and petty to condemn people to hell for not worshipping. I don't agree with it or believe that's the true nature of God either.