How Flawed is Man of Steel?

[Two-Face=Badass]

One of the major flaws of Man of Steel is that it is so dependent on a sequel to validate it. Many of the defences against criticisms is 'that will be explored in the next film', which means that MoS finds it difficult to stand on its own two feet.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I voted 0%. Not because I actually believe that, but because I really don't see why we needed yet ANOTHER thread where everyone chimes in on everything they hated about MOS. We get it! Some people think it sucks! They're all clearly smarter and more cultured than the rest of us proles! DC should just give up!

Good God.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Speaking of opinions, to whom does this one belong?

Well certainly not you Marvin. Just those "other " people. (They know who are)

 

[Joeyjojo72]

IMO and IMHO are never warranted. If someone's post comes off as rude, it comes off as rude regardless. And IMO and IMHO is just paralanguage. If you are typing it, it is clearly an opinion.

As for Man of Steel, it is a flawed movie. However, if the DCEU ends up becoming great, Man of Steel will be viewed in a much better light down the road. The entire DCEU revolves around Superman's first appearance on Earth. The same applies to the film itself.

I agree with this. If the subsequent films are of a high quality, I will probably see MoS as a more than serviceable starting point.

 

[kedrell]

Sure, but it's not hard to discern between facts and opinions. Thus, the use of IMO/IMHO is pretty pointless to me. Unless we're all a bunch of idiots.

It's an easy safeguard that takes half a second to insert in, what's the harm? Because I see tons of bozos on here posting statement type sentences which are absolutely just their opinions but the way they post them it comes off like they think what they are saying are facts. Given that this form of communication lacks advantages(like tone of voice and body language) which would help if we were really speaking face to face, I think a few added steps to alleviate misunderstandings is warranted. Nobody wants to see some flame war erupt, after all.

 

[kedrell]

IMO and IMHO are never warranted.

And there's another opinion.t:

 

[kedrell]

One of the major flaws of Man of Steel is that it is so dependent on a sequel to validate it. Many of the defences against criticisms is 'that will be explored in the next film', which means that MoS finds it difficult to stand on its own two feet.

So it's like TFA in that case then.

 

[kedrell]

I voted 0%. Not because I actually believe that, but because I really don't see why we needed yet ANOTHER thread where everyone chimes in on everything they hated about MOS. We get it! Some people think it sucks! They're all clearly smarter and more cultured than the rest of us proles! DC should just give up!

Good God.

Hell no! I just think they should learn from their mistakes. But they went and kept Snyder(who should have been kicked to the curb after Watchmen, quite frankly) so it's in doubt for me.

 

[BH/HHH]

Multi-quote Kedrell

As I've just said in the All Things BvS thread.. I watched the the CW special in full and was thrilled at the amount of music and footage they used from Man of Steel. Regardless of your opinion of it they are clearly proud of it and see it as the foundation for the DCEU. I've seen people try to ignore Man of Steel as the beginning of the DCEU but it's direct actions that lead into BvS aswell as nods like Wayne Enterprises, Lexcorp etc prove that it is the start of the DCEU.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Hell no! I just think they should learn from their mistakes. But they went and kept Snyder(who should have been kicked to the curb after Watchmen, quite frankly) so it's in doubt for me.

Just my opinion, but I loved Watchmen. It wasn't perfect, but it was probably as good of an adaptation as one could hope for, given the source material. I know some will argue that maybe it never should have been adapted (and Moore himself said this should be the case) but if it had to be, I'm pretty sure they could have done a lot worse than Snyder's Watchmen. Jackie Earle Haley's Rorschach alone makes it worthwhile.

 

[BH/HHH]

Just my opinion, but I loved Watchmen. It wasn't perfect, but it was probably as good of an adaptation as one could hope for, given the source material. I know some will argue that maybe it never should have been adapted (and Moore himself said this should be the case) but if it had to be, I'm pretty sure they could have done a lot worse than Snyder's Watchmen. Jackie Earle Haley's Rorschach alone makes it worthwhile.

To be fair Moore doesn't think anything of his should be, if you ask me he's a stuck up pleb. I am not a fan of the book in all honesty but I liked the film, it was a beautiful piece of cinema IMO but not something I'd rewatch, I totally agree on JEH as Rorschach aswell.

I don't get how people can say that a book shouldn't be adapted though, who are they to say that? It's a story, stories are told in different mediums all the time and I don't think anything should be exempy from that.

 

[rogbngp]

To be fair Moore doesn't think anything of his should be, if you ask me he's a stuck up pleb. I am not a fan of the book in all honesty but I liked the film, it was a beautiful piece of cinema IMO but not something I'd rewatch, I totally agree on JEH as Rorschach aswell.

I don't get how people can say that a book shouldn't be adapted though, who are they to say that? It's a story, stories are told in different mediums all the time and I don't think anything should be exempt from that.

Could not agree more with the bolded part above! Sorry Mr. Moore, that people really like your story and it got adapted.

I'm in the middle of reading Watchmen for the first time, and I'm really digging it! I think I like the film more, though. I rank Watchmen at number nine on my all-time favorite CBM list. I'm still intrigued to see how the book ending and the film ending match up for me. I realize YMMV.

 

[SoultakerKatana]

people hated mos for stupid reasons

 

[The Joker]

One of the major flaws of Man of Steel is that it is so dependent on a sequel to validate it. Many of the defences against criticisms is 'that will be explored in the next film', which means that MoS finds it difficult to stand on its own two feet.

Excellent point

 

[Warhammer]

And there's another opinion.t:

Exactly. You know it's my opinion because I typed it out.

 

[Warhammer]

Just my opinion, but I loved Watchmen. It wasn't perfect, but it was probably as good of an adaptation as one could hope for, given the source material. I know some will argue that maybe it never should have been adapted (and Moore himself said this should be the case) but if it had to be, I'm pretty sure they could have done a lot worse than Snyder's Watchmen. Jackie Earle Haley's Rorschach alone makes it worthwhile.

Me too. I LOVE Watchmen. I'm an outlier because it was much better than the warm reception it received. I'm one of the guys that thought that a giant squid at the end would have hilariously stupid. Some people already couldn't stop giggling at Dr. Manhattan's dingus. The squid would have been the nail in the coffin.

Multi-quote Kedrell

As I've just said in the All Things BvS thread.. I watched the the CW special in full and was thrilled at the amount of music and footage they used from Man of Steel. Regardless of your opinion of it they are clearly proud of it and see it as the foundation for the DCEU. I've seen people try to ignore Man of Steel as the beginning of the DCEU but it's direct actions that lead into BvS aswell as nods like Wayne Enterprises, Lexcorp etc prove that it is the start of the DCEU.

I love that the catalyst of this entire universe is the appearance of Superman. It just seems so right. I just hope they don't f*** this up as it took DC long enough to finally start putting out films. I always kept thinking "What the hell, Warner Bros? You OWN DC Comics."

 

[BH/HHH]

Me too. I LOVE Watchmen. I'm an outlier because it was much better than the warm reception it received. I'm one of the guys that thought that a giant squid at the end would have hilariously stupid. Some people already couldn't stop giggling at Dr. Manhattan's dingus. The squid would have been the nail in the coffin.

Agreed the finale of the film is much better than the comic. Of course a lot of people won't agree but I think it's because the comic did that first. Other way around, they'd have been like "what's with that giant squid at the end of Watchmen?".

I love that the catalyst of this entire universe is the appearance of Superman. It just seems so right. I just hope they don't f*** this up as it took DC long enough to finally start putting out films. I always kept thinking "What the hell, Warner Bros? You OWN DC Comics."

Agreed, they sure as hell have taken the piss with it. I guess it just shows how clueless they were at times giving guys like Jon Peters a say in Superman. Thankfully they got Batman right when they gave it to Chris Nolan, he's the one who took David Goyer's MOS idea and pitched it to WBs. They were gonna say no to him thankfully and here we are.

 

[kedrell]

Multi-quote Kedrell

As I've just said in the All Things BvS thread.. I watched the the CW special in full and was thrilled at the amount of music and footage they used from Man of Steel. Regardless of your opinion of it they are clearly proud of it and see it as the foundation for the DCEU. I've seen people try to ignore Man of Steel as the beginning of the DCEU but it's direct actions that lead into BvS aswell as nods like Wayne Enterprises, Lexcorp etc prove that it is the start of the DCEU.

I would but I usually don't know ahead of time that I'm going to find that many posts that are worth responding too and by then if I go back and edit my 1st post you'll still have another 4 or 5 empty spots since I can't delete a post of mine but only erase what's in it. So I figure why bother.

 

[kedrell]

Just my opinion, but I loved Watchmen. It wasn't perfect, but it was probably as good of an adaptation as one could hope for, given the source material. I know some will argue that maybe it never should have been adapted (and Moore himself said this should be the case) but if it had to be, I'm pretty sure they could have done a lot worse than Snyder's Watchmen. Jackie Earle Haley's Rorschach alone makes it worthwhile.

I found it mediocre to be quite frank. Lack of squid aside, Watchmen is an example of being too faithful, too reverent of the source material. I mean, he kept all the same dialog with hardly any changes at all. You can't go from one medium to another and do that. Rorshach, while played to the nines by JEH, sounded ridiculous with the dialog he was spouting all too often because it was meant to be read rather than acted out. And most characters have plenty of times where that was the case. It pulled me out of the movie every couple of minutes with this shtick and after nearly 3 hours I was very annoyed about it. If you're gonna have a real live human being say those lines then they gotta sound like they belong when they come outta their mouths. That takes translation and adaption rather than just copying and pasting and Snyder didn't do that. Watchmen was the movie that proved to me that he was a fanboy film maker who was out of his depth. You can't just be a fanboy, you have to step out of that mindset and make a good movie that general audiences will want to watch too.

 

[BH/HHH]

I would but I usually don't know ahead of time that I'm going to find that many posts that are worth responding too and by then if I go back and edit my 1st post you'll still have another 4 or 5 empty spots since I can't delete a post of mine but only erase what's it it. So I figure why bother.

Haha all good mate I was only jesting t;

 

[Rowsdower!]

I found it mediocre to be quite frank. Lack of squid aside, Watchmen is an example of being too faithful, too reverent of the source material. I mean, he kept all the same dialog with hardly any changes at all. You can't go from one medium to another and do that. Rorshach, while played to the nines by JEH, sounded ridiculous with the dialog he was spouting all too often because it was meant to be read rather than acted out. And most characters have plenty of times where that was the case. It pulled me out of the movie every couple of minutes with this shtick and after nearly 3 hours I was very annoyed about it. If you're gonna have a real live human being say those lines then they gotta sound like they belong when they come outta their mouths. That takes translation and adaption rather than just copying and pasting and Snyder didn't do that. Watchmen was the movie that proved to me that he was a fanboy film maker who was out of his depth. You can't just be a fanboy, you have to step out of that mindset and make a good movie that general audiences will want to watch too.

That's... an interesting opinion. I don't know, I think good dialogue (and Watchmen has lots of it) is just good dialogue and it can work on the page or the screen. I don't see the point in changing it unless it actually does sound ridiculous when spoken, and I personally don't think it does. I think the things he did remove (the squid, the pirate comic stuff, the dialogue with the "Bernies") would have left the film extremely bloated, and at three hours, you're already asking a lot of commitment from your audience. But I thought most of what he kept there worked. I didn't think JEH sounded ridiculous at all... he sounded deranged, as he should.

 

[4thWallBreaker]

I put 36 to 40%. Some bumps. Noticeable ones. But no plot holes, like Superman Returns, thank goodness.

The way his father died was dumb. Him being a drifter was too Bruce Banner for my liking (which was an annoying chunk of the movie). The oil rig segment seemed unnecessary. I think the destruction of Metropolis was a bit much. We needed more Superman saving people. You could easily argue he was greatly occupied, but still... Hold up one of those buildings for people to escape. And for only a thousand plus people to have died?! Unlikely.

 

[rogbngp]

I put 36 to 40%. Some bumps. Noticeable ones. But no plot holes, like Superman Returns, thank goodness.

The way his father died was dumb. Him being a drifter was too Bruce Banner for my liking (which was an annoying chunk of the movie). The oil rig segment seemed unnecessary. I think the destruction of Metropolis was a bit much. We needed more Superman saving people. You could easily argue he was greatly occupied, but still... Hold up one of those buildings for people to escape. And for only a thousand plus people to have died?! Unlikely.

I think Snyder has said approximately 5000 died during the Black Zero event. And as we will see in BvS that will have very fateful consequences.

What I think upsets many fans is that Man of Steel is a deliberate and very ambitious reinvention of the Superman myth. It explores Superman as a mythic character, or an archetype, first and foremost; and in that sense what Superman means to the American psyche is getting a kind of 'rebirth'. In that sense Superman begins this new trajectory as more of a lost, wandering soul akin to the ancient Greek demigod heroes. The reason for that? Because that reflects what the archetype is going through as he gets reinvented in our modern, real world, and in our modern cultural psyche. (Btw, that isn't wishfully read into the film by intellectualizing fans (like me ), either. There are plenty in interviews with Snyder that explicitly back up that assertion.) Snyder had to have known he would alienate a lot of fans with this approach.

So in this sense, the above response to the film epitomizes the struggle of Superman to break free from the constraints of the cultural identity that America crystallized for itself during the 1950s, and still holds sway for many. MoS's Superman has left that world and now exists in a denser, more intense and complex, grayer world (literally).

I'm not saying that there aren't things that I wish had been done better for MoS. There are. It's not a perfect film. But I think when one understands what the film is about conceptually, and how Snyder works that at a symbolic level, it takes on a whole different meaning. Imho, Snyder is truly an auteur. He is using film and the Superman character/tale to explore myth-making.

 

[DA_Champion]

I honestly don't know how anyone can credibly put a precise number on this issue.

 

[rogbngp]

I want to add to what I wrote above that no one should feel like any of this is obvious or easy for all to see. It's intended to be more cryptic, as something to be ciphered, apparently.* All of this is implicit versus explicit. And until I began sort of digging in and studying this film none of it was obvious to me. It is even possible that some of it is not even intentional on Snyder's part. The "A Thesis on Mn of Steel" interpretation is a good example. The author of that video analysis may actually be reading in more than was intentional, but it still works as a coherent way to derive meaning from the film. I.e., amazingly, it is there and stands on its own whether it was intended or not. Which impresses me even more.

*A good example of this is the message that runs right through Superman's House of El insignia on his costume is important, I think:

"Where we had thought to stand alone, we will be with all the world."

Simply by adding a cryptic quote from Joseph Cambell (since Jung the definitive thinker on myth) tells us a lot. Snyder has said that when designing the insignia he approached it as if it was from "an illuminated manuscript" (see here).

The expanded version of the quote is:

"Where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."

My guess as to what that means is that the mythic themes that lie at the core of our favorite stories connect us to all of humankind. When we "travel outward" on a journey of imagination via a fictional character that is individuating, ironically, we invariably wind up at the axis mundi.