How often has Batman allowed criminals to die?

[D.P.]

If he was able to prevent it?

I rewatched Batman Begins last Thursday night, and the scene where he let Ra's die got me curious.

Can anybody provide canon evidence/panels/instances in the comics where Batman pretty much let somebody die when it was in his control to stop it?

This is an interesting question considering that he goes completely out of his way to save the Joker if he is in danger.

On a sidenote, I also wonder how many criminals have died as a result of the severe beatings he dishes out?

Broken arms, limbs, ribs. I could see someone bleeding to death (externally or internally) in an alley somewhere because Batman beat them to a pulp.

 

[Lord]

During the golden age he usually killed his oponents, and he did kill Dick Grayson in The Dark Knight Strikes Again

 

[TruerToTheCore]

During the golden age he usually killed his oponents, and he did kill Dick Grayson in The Dark Knight Strikes Again

Only in the first few issues, not the whole Golden Age at all.

 

[Gale]

Good question that I wonder myself.

When I first saw Batman Begins I was alright with the killing of Ras al Ghul, but I was too young to really understand Batman's morals then.

Now I think the scene is quite unlike Batman or at least how I view his "no killing" rule so I just pretend he tried to save Ras al Ghul and then Ras pulled a "you defeated me fair and square so I'll die for my failed cause with honor". Might have been a little cliche, but with what Nolan did with Bat's "no killing" rule it's what I could come up with without changing the storyline too much.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That scene was probably the worst part of Begins for me, and it was made even worse when Batman's refusal to kill became the linchpin of TDK's whole plot. I prefer Batman to be more absolutist about his no kill rule.

 

[Lord]

Only in the first few issues, not the whole Golden Age at all.

Yeah, he stoped to kill when or soon after Robin appeared

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

It wasn't because of Robin though. Together they racked up quite a body count throwing people off buildings.

 

[Lord]

It wasn't because of Robin though. Together they racked up quite a body count throwing people off buildings.

Yeah, i'm just saying it was soon after his appearance.

 

[CConn]

That scene was probably the worst part of Begins for me, and it was made even worse when Batman's refusal to kill became the linchpin of TDK's whole plot. I prefer Batman to be more absolutist about his no kill rule.

I'd rather Batman just light mother****ers on fire without compunction like he did in Returns.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Never was a fan of the no kill rule. If you have to have it, have him not kill. But don't make it a rule everyone knows about. It hurts his mystique.

Got so used to superheroes not killing that it was refreshing to just see Tony Stark waste some terrorists.

 

[Roose Bolton]

That scene was probably the worst part of Begins for me, and it was made even worse when Batman's refusal to kill became the linchpin of TDK's whole plot. I prefer Batman to be more absolutist about his no kill rule.

Perhaps it was his actions against Ra's that caused him to reaffirm his no killing rule in TDK.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

There was never anything to indicate that. And then he breaks it again in TDK by killing Two-Face at the end anyway.

 

[Cain]

...and he breaks it yet again and again in TDKR.

 

[The Question]

The Two Face one is way more forgivable for me, though. It's not like he was thinking "now I shall end this man's life!" It was more "Gotta stop him! Oops, he's dead."

 

[Lord]

...and he breaks it yet again and again in TDKR.

Thanks for spoiling some of the information, i don't know who will die but now because of you i know he kills somebody

 

[Cain]

It's not who you may think it is though it's actually pretty inconsequential. I just bring it up because it's clearly there for even the blind to see. People love to talk smack about the Burton movies and their lack of "no kill" law but ironically the Batman movies with the Batman who has a self imposed "no kill" law also has Batman responsible for death on many occasions.

The comics do too but I'd have to look through a lot of my long boxes sometime for canonical examples because I have a lot more floppies (in the hundreds) than trades when it comes to Batman dating back to the late 80's. Since the golden age I can't think of him allowing a criminal to die and NOT be shocked or remorseful about it. For example the O'Neal/Adams story with the Seal boy & other circus folk or the Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle Trashed story.

 

[chamber-music]

I never thought Bruce murdered Ras in begins. It was a suicide mission Ras was on. Ras destroyed the controls so the train wouldn't stop so even if he defeated Batman Ras would of died anyway.

If someone refuses to save another person in a house fire they didn't start that doesn't make them a murder.

I put Ras death down to a rookie Batman mistake in Begins and anyone who has seen TDKR knows that mistake comes back to bite him in the ass.

If anything in the Nolan films Batman is clumsy, reckless and negligent.

From a legal standpoint most superheroes would probably be charged with manslaughter.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Good question that I wonder myself.

When I first saw Batman Begins I was alright with the killing of Ras al Ghul, but I was too young to really understand Batman's morals then.

Now I think the scene is quite unlike Batman or at least how I view his "no killing" rule so I just pretend he tried to save Ras al Ghul and then Ras pulled a "you defeated me fair and square so I'll die for my failed cause with honor". Might have been a little cliche, but with what Nolan did with Bat's "no killing" rule it's what I could come up with without changing the storyline too much.

I could see "Frank Miller" in the eyes of Bale in that scene.

Yeah, he stoped to kill when or soon after Robin appeared

You made it sound like he killed for the whole Golden Age. Be more clear in the future.

 

[Motown Marvel]

while you can never expect comics to be consistent, batman's no killing rule includes not letting someone die if he could prevent it. that includes villains.

That scene was probably the worst part of Begins for me, and it was made even worse when Batman's refusal to kill became the linchpin of TDK's whole plot. I prefer Batman to be more absolutist about his no kill rule.

totally agree. i think BB is the most solid of the trilogy, but that moment....groan!

 

[Wolfwood]

I remember the first time I saw it I thought "Holy ****, that line was sooo bad ass." Once I left the theater though, it began to sink in.

Didn't Batman kill some White Martians when he lit them on fire? Or did that just temporarily stop them? I can't remember.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Are you talking about the first story from Morrison's JLA? If so, no, none of the white Martians died. Batman just used the ring of fire to keep them contained and show them he knew what they were.

The Two Face one is way more forgivable for me, though. It's not like he was thinking "now I shall end this man's life!" It was more "Gotta stop him! Oops, he's dead."

Incompetence is no excuse. He's friggin' Batman.

 

[hippie_hunter]

There was never anything to indicate that. And then he breaks it again in TDK by killing Two-Face at the end anyway.

The Two Face one is way more forgivable for me, though. It's not like he was thinking "now I shall end this man's life!" It was more "Gotta stop him! Oops, he's dead."

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Unlike the way Ra's died in Batman Begins, the way Two-Face died is a tad bit more forgivable.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm obviously kidding about the incompetence thing. I can understand accidentally killing Two-Face to save a boy, especially in the weakened state he entered that scene in. It still makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I can understand it.

"I don't have to save you," on the other hand, is just so very un-Batman. It makes my skin crawl whenever I see that scene.

 

[Wolfwood]

Are you talking about the first story from Morrison's JLA? If so, no, none of the white Martians died. Batman just used the ring of fire to keep them contained and show them he knew what they were.


Incompetence is no excuse. He's friggin' Batman.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. I'm out of ideas then.

 

[JTStarkiller]

In my opinion, Batman's "no killing rule" stays intact in the Nolan films. I would much rather he have saved Ra's on the train, don't get me wrong. That goes against what Batman's stood for in the comics, but in my opinion, he didn't kill him (though I guess that's up for debate). In The Dark Knight, he was more direct in killing Harvey, but like Hippie and Question said it's more forgivable. He was saving a boy. It wasn't cold-blooded murder. He tackled Harvey, and I like to think that if he could've saved Harvey, he absolutely would have.

In TDKR, well, I'll leave that for another time. I need to see it a second time, and everyone here needs to see it too.