Hulk vs Apocalypse

[Silicon Surfer]

yah but dracula almost got the best of him. what does that show.

That they have done ridiculous things with Dracula!

 

[rodhulk]

Hmmm. So you think Hulk would win because you favor him. That's fine with me.

I'll just post(again) my arguments as to why Hulk will lose to Apocalypse if there is a prep time.

Apocalypse's powers are the following: He has energy projection and absorption, ability to create force fields, ability to alter his body at molecular level, flight, and superhuman strength, durability and stamina. He can also increase his strength to levels surpassing that of the Hulk(taken from marvel.com). This alone proves that he can go toe-to-toe with Hulk anytime. The next and definitive factor is the prep time. Apocalypse has virtually all info about Hulk and other mutants and heroes. He can use this to his advantage. He also is master of celestial technology, the alien technology that enhance his powers to unknown limits. With all these resources at his disposal, defeating Hulk would be extremely very possible.

Sure, Apoc could take Hulk. But I still favor Hulk in the end.

1) Apoc doesn't have a good track record so he may not be as great as you make him out to be. I'll admit, he has the potential to be a real powerhouse, but he lacks the ability to actually use everything at his disposal. So, Hulk stilledges o rmor ethan edges him out.

2) As for the strength, Marvel in handbooks and comics have often said that Hulk is the strongest. Much more than they have ever said of Apoc.

Question, If Hulk may have limitless strength, then how can Apoc surpass limitless?

Amnswer, Marvel.com, I'm sure, were referring to Hulk's base strength which they so often do and many people miss that. Sure, Apoc can get stronger than Hulk's base strength, but stronger than Hulk's possible limitelss strength, nope.

And continuity is in the comics, not Marvel.com, and the comics have referred to Hulk more than any other (including Apoc) as being the strongest. This has never been debated yet by anybody thatI can recall.

 

[Toby_Temple]

Sure, Apoc could take Hulk. But I still favor Hulk in the end.

1) Apoc doesn't have a good track record so he may not be as great as you make him out to be. I'll admit, he has the potential to be a real powerhouse, but he lacks the ability to actually use everything at his disposal. So, Hulk stilledges o rmor ethan edges him out.

2) As for the strength, Marvel in handbooks and comics have often said that Hulk is the strongest. Much more than they have ever said of Apoc.

Question, If Hulk may have limitless strength, then how can Apoc surpass limitless?

Amnswer, Marvel.com, I'm sure, were referring to Hulk's base strength which they so often do and many people miss that. Sure, Apoc can get stronger than Hulk's base strength, but stronger than Hulk's possible limitelss strength, nope.

And continuity is in the comics, not Marvel.com, and the comics have referred to Hulk more than any other (including Apoc) as being the strongest. This has never been debated yet by anybody thatI can recall.

We are not debating about who is stronger among the 2. The debate is about who would win with prep time.

If you really are familiar with marvel and their characters then you would know that Hulk does not have a monopoly of the potential for limitless strength.

Another thing about your counterarguments is that you focused more on attacking the strength factor of Apocalypse. Being stronger does not mean being more powerful. But still your argument does not stand. Apocalypse's strength is yet to be shown a definite limit. And he is yet to be shown intending to kill a single superhero. The bad track record he has is similar with all wannabe-earth-ruler villains. He is written to always fail in such an endeavor.

With Apocalypse's history, anyone who knows about it would accept that he can make a definite plan to defeat Hulk, even capture him. He did it before, he can do it again. If the Illuminati can trick the Hulk, Apocalypse can do the same and more.

 

[wolf1023]

Ok I have done some research and I have come to the conclusion that the hulk would win.

1) First off the hulk fights people who plane for him all the time such as I don’t know the leader, who intelligence is far superior to apoc. And saying well celestial technology gives him the upper hand well no it doesn’t the leader has made thing far more powerful than what people give him credit for.
2) 2) I got a little off track there. Secondly apoc is not more powerful than the hulk he just happens to have more powers than the hulk. Apoc was beaten by the original x men,I am sorry the hulk can beat them. Apoc was almost killed by Dracula who’s teeth actually entered apocs body thus showing he is vulnerable to attack without his chamber to sleep in oh and I must not forget in AOA a half powered old magneto beat apoc to death with a metal club. Can the hulk beat apoc there is no doubt left in my mind can apoc overtake the hulk I don’t know anymore.

 

[rodhulk]

We are not debating about who is stronger among the 2. The debate is about who would win with prep time.

If you really are familiar with marvel and their characters then you would know that Hulk does not have a monopoly of the potential for limitless strength.

Another thing about your counterarguments is that you focused more on attacking the strength factor of Apocalypse. Being stronger does not mean being more powerful. But still your argument does not stand. Apocalypse's strength is yet to be shown a definite limit. And he is yet to be shown intending to kill a single superhero. The bad track record he has is similar with all wannabe-earth-ruler villains. He is written to always fail in such an endeavor.

With Apocalypse's history, anyone who knows about it would accept that he can make a definite plan to defeat Hulk, even capture him. He did it before, he can do it again. If the Illuminati can trick the Hulk, Apocalypse can do the same and more.

You say we're not debating about strength yet in your post above, you said Marvel said Apoc can get stronger than Hulk, so, yes, the stronger factor was brought in by you?????

And where, ny the way, did you read Hulk does not have the potential for limitless strength (when I could probably dig up over a dozen sources that say he does have that potnetial)?????

Fact is, I repeat, 'fact' is, Apoc's record is still weak and so it's obvious he has potential, but doesn't know how to use it (not often anyway).

Yes, Apoc does indeed stand a chance at defeating the Hulk, even w/o prep. But I favor the Hulk because he most often wins in the end. And, as for all these captures and tricks done to the Hulk, so? Hulk's not perfect but neither is Apoc. It'll be fun to see what the illuminati can do to the Hulk now, or, what Hulk can do to them.

 

[rodhulk]

Ok I have done some research and I have come to the conclusion that the hulk would win.

1) First off the hulk fights people who plane for him all the time such as I don’t know the leader, who intelligence is far superior to apoc. And saying well celestial technology gives him the upper hand well no it doesn’t the leader has made thing far more powerful than what people give him credit for.
2) 2) I got a little off track there. Secondly apoc is not more powerful than the hulk he just happens to have more powers than the hulk. Apoc was beaten by the original x men,I am sorry the hulk can beat them. Apoc was almost killed by Dracula who’s teeth actually entered apocs body thus showing he is vulnerable to attack without his chamber to sleep in oh and I must not forget in AOA a half powered old magneto beat apoc to death with a metal club. Can the hulk beat apoc there is no doubt left in my mind can apoc overtake the hulk I don’t know anymore.

Good points, Wolf. Further reasons on why Hulk would beat Apoc.

 

[wolf1023]

yah but I dont rule out apoc I just have a gut feeling this fight would go to the big green guy.

 

[Toby_Temple]

You say we're not debating about strength yet in your post above, you said Marvel said Apoc can get stronger than Hulk, so, yes, the stronger factor was brought in by you?????

raising a point does not mean it changes the topic at hand. I stated the strength factor as one of my reason why Apoc would win. You were the one who started arguing against that fact found in marvel.com and focused more on trying to prove who has the greater strength.

And where, ny the way, did you read Hulk does not have the potential for limitless strength (when I could probably dig up over a dozen sources that say he does have that potnetial)?????

improve your reading comprehension please. I said that Hulk does not have the monopoly for the potential for limitless strength. read my post again.

Fact is, I repeat, 'fact' is, Apoc's record is still weak and so it's obvious he has potential, but doesn't know how to use it (not often anyway).

wrong. your are just being arrogant. what you say is just an opinion and not a fact. remember that always

Yes, Apoc does indeed stand a chance at defeating the Hulk, even w/o prep. But I favor the Hulk because he most often wins in the end. And, as for all these captures and tricks done to the Hulk, so? Hulk's not perfect but neither is Apoc. It'll be fun to see what the illuminati can do to the Hulk now, or, what Hulk can do to them.

Irrelevant. Saying that a character wins just because writers prefer him/her to win most of the time is not a proper basis for this debate. Its like saying Galactus will lose to Spider-Man because Spider-Man is shown to win more often than Galactus.

 

[Toby_Temple]

Ok I have done some research and I have come to the conclusion that the hulk would win.

1) First off the hulk fights people who plane for him all the time such as I don’t know the leader, who intelligence is far superior to apoc. And saying well celestial technology gives him the upper hand well no it doesn’t the leader has made thing far more powerful than what people give him credit for.

The Leader is in no way more intelligent that Apocalypse.

2) 2) I got a little off track there. Secondly apoc is not more powerful than the hulk he just happens to have more powers than the hulk. Apoc was beaten by the original x men,I am sorry the hulk can beat them. Apoc was almost killed by Dracula who’s teeth actually entered apocs body thus showing he is vulnerable to attack without his chamber to sleep in oh and I must not forget in AOA a half powered old magneto beat apoc to death with a metal club. Can the hulk beat apoc there is no doubt left in my mind can apoc overtake the hulk I don’t know anymore.

And Hulk was KOed by a giant python. That and Dracula being able to sink his teeth on Apoc are examples of bad writting. Apocalypse and Hulk are shown to be very resistant to attacks but are not perfectly invulnerable.

 

[rodhulk]

raising a point does not mean it changes the topic at hand. I stated the strength factor as one of my reason why Apoc would win. You were the one who started arguing against that fact found in marvel.com and focused more on trying to prove who has the greater strength.



improve your reading comprehension please. I said that Hulk does not have the monopoly for the potential for limitless strength. read my post again.



wrong. your are just being arrogant. what you say is just an opinion and not a fact. remember that always



Irrelevant. Saying that a character wins just because writers prefer him/her to win most of the time is not a proper basis for this debate. Its like saying Galactus will lose to Spider-Man because Spider-Man is shown to win more often than Galactus.

Firstly, this is my 2nd time typing this as for some reason, the first post couldn't get through.

Secondly, you're starting some name calling stuff here which shows you're still an unbelievable __________ (I'll let you fill in the blank).

To the points.....

My reading comprehension must be poor, explain to me on what you mean by the monopoly and Hulk's possible limitless strength.

You brought up the strength and marvel.com, so I'm going to respond accordingly with it. Plus, it does indeed have something to do with our argument. Strength is an important part of Hulk and if he is indeed stronger than Apoc (with his rage), this is one advantage for the Hulk.

True on the fact part, but only partly, I shouldn't say as a fact that Apoc doesn't know how to use his resources, but it is a fact that he has a losing record. Since Hulk has a winning record, this has to be a nod to the Hulk. And while you're trying to tell me to not use something as a fact and to remember that always, how can you say this when you did this almost exact same thing in your post above to the other poster. Read below.....

You said the Leader is not more intelligent than Apoc. Wait a minute! How do you know? Answer... you don't! So, don't go accusing me of something when you're doing it yourself.

Now, Hulk has beaten the Leader every time that I can recall (and again, the Leader may be as or more intelligent as Apoc, and has substantial prep often, yet Hulk wins) as well, Hulk has beaten many people who have had great prep against him, so why is Apoc any different, especially when you look at his bad track record. You've really got nothing while I've got something with Hulk's great track record.

None of us can say for sure, but Hulk gets the advantage to winning this battle every time.

 

[Toby_Temple]

Firstly, this is my 2nd time typing this as for some reason, the first post couldn't get through.

Secondly, you're starting some name calling stuff here which shows you're still an unbelievable __________ (I'll let you fill in the blank).

To the points.....

FYI: Considering ones opinion as a fact is tantamount to arrogance. And someone who is showing arrogance is being arrogant.

My reading comprehension must be poor, explain to me on what you mean by the monopoly and Hulk's possible limitless strength.

Hulk is not the only one with limitless strength. Apocalypse's strength is also limitless. Silver Surfer, the Fallen One, Morg and Tyrant also have limitless strength.

You brought up the strength and marvel.com, so I'm going to respond accordingly with it. Plus, it does indeed have something to do with our argument. Strength is an important part of Hulk and if he is indeed stronger than Apoc (with his rage), this is one advantage for the Hulk.

It does with the debate. You were the one who started to argue on who is stronger among the two.

True on the fact part, but only partly, I shouldn't say as a fact that Apoc doesn't know how to use his resources, but it is a fact that he has a losing record. Since Hulk has a winning record, this has to be a nod to the Hulk. And while you're trying to tell me to not use something as a fact and to remember that always, how can you say this when you did this almost exact same thing in your post above to the other poster. Read below.....

You said the Leader is not more intelligent than Apoc. Wait a minute! How do you know? Answer... you don't! So, don't go accusing me of something when you're doing it yourself.

Really? Did I claim that what I said is fact? I know Apocalypse is smarter than Leader simply by comparing their intellectual feats just like me knowing that Hulk is stronger than Juggernaut by comparing their strength feats. And I consider my opinion to be correct.

You on the other hand considered Apocalypse's record weak as a fact just because writters make him lose in the end just like what they do to every villain.
That is clearly being arrogant.

Now, Hulk has beaten the Leader every time that I can recall (and again, the Leader may be as or more intelligent as Apoc, and has substantial prep often, yet Hulk wins) as well, Hulk has beaten many people who have had great prep against him, so why is Apoc any different, especially when you look at his bad track record. You've really got nothing while I've got something with Hulk's great track record.

What I got is common sense. Apocalypse is clearly at Hulk's strength class, he has more powers up his sleaves and he can augment all of them and he as celestial tech to use any time. Hulk has only one way to increase his strength, rage. What happends if Apocalypse effectively prevents Hulk from getting madder? He does not get stronger. Apoc then can increase his strength to levels beyond Hulk's base strength when he is calm and sucker punch him.
Is that the only way for Apocalypse? No. He can fool Hulk like what the Illuminati did and send Hulk to the sun. And there are more ways Apocalypse can come up with to beat Hulk when he is given prep time.

None of us can say for sure, but Hulk gets the advantage to winning this battle every time.

I disagree. If its a random fight with no prep time, Hulk has the advantage. With prep time, Apocalypse has all the advantage.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

Since Apocalypse has superhuman speed and agility in the same class with Spider Man, Hulk couldn't even hit him unless he permitted it. The fact is that Apocalypse already showed that he could defeat the Hulk by doing it and without apparent effort.

 

[wolf1023]

ok thats bull saying that is just ignorant the hulk can hit apoc he has hit speedsters before and saying that he could beat the hulk effortlessly did you not even read the points I gave he has been beaten by weaker people than the hulk before.

 

[wolf1023]

wow someone said the leader is not more inteligent than apoc. well its time to be schooled little boy.The Leader has superhuman mental acumen. As a result of the mutagenic process he has undergone he is (in theory) capable of knowledge and comprehension beyond the human ability to understand. He is potentially capable of mastering every worldly subject and capable of adopting concepts completely foreign to his environment. His ability to predict probable outcomes of tactical and strategic scenarios is so advanced that it borders on clairvoyance. His intuition is heightened to the degree that his hunches are almost always correct. The Leader has a perfect memory with the ability to recall every moment since the accident that gave him his powers.

In addition to his extraordinary intelligence, the Leader has some psionic powers that enable him to mentally control certain individuals (provided they are weak minded).

The Leader has also designed a large number of sophisticated weapons, vehicles, computers, androids, and synthetic humanoids. He is particularly adept at genetic engineering and manipulating radiation for various nefarious purposes. He has designed and constructed at least one space station and presumably space shuttles as well.
here is apoc. Aside from his superhuman powers, Apocalypse is also extraordinarily intelligent, a genius with knowledge of science and technology far beyond that of conventional science and technology. I would say about even wouldnt you to say the leader isnt as intligent is dumb but only becaus he gets a bad rep look the hulk beats him so everyone wants to think he isnt realy all that smart but its his super power.

 

[wolf1023]

The Hulk is depicted with extremely high levels of superhuman stamina and resistance to physical injury. His muscles are resistant to fatigue poisons due to his healing factor's ability to negate them similar to Wolverine's ability. He's been shown withstanding the impact of high-caliber artillery shells, falls from orbital heights, and powerful energy blasts without sustaining injury and resisting extreme temperatures, poisons, and diseases with no ill effect. The Hulk is capable of surviving a ground zero nuclear explosion. At the end of the Planet Hulk storyline, he survives the impact of a warp core breach, which generates enough force to destroy a planet
this is why no engergy blast from apoc is going to injure the hulk, and this was all taken from comics.

 

[Toby_Temple]

wow someone said the leader is not more inteligent than apoc. well its time to be schooled little boy.The Leader has superhuman mental acumen. As a result of the mutagenic process he has undergone he is (in theory) capable of knowledge and comprehension beyond the human ability to understand. He is potentially capable of mastering every worldly subject and capable of adopting concepts completely foreign to his environment. His ability to predict probable outcomes of tactical and strategic scenarios is so advanced that it borders on clairvoyance. His intuition is heightened to the degree that his hunches are almost always correct. The Leader has a perfect memory with the ability to recall every moment since the accident that gave him his powers.

In addition to his extraordinary intelligence, the Leader has some psionic powers that enable him to mentally control certain individuals (provided they are weak minded).

The Leader has also designed a large number of sophisticated weapons, vehicles, computers, androids, and synthetic humanoids. He is particularly adept at genetic engineering and manipulating radiation for various nefarious purposes. He has designed and constructed at least one space station and presumably space shuttles as well.
here is apoc. Aside from his superhuman powers, Apocalypse is also extraordinarily intelligent, a genius with knowledge of science and technology far beyond that of conventional science and technology. I would say about even wouldnt you to say the leader isnt as intligent is dumb but only becaus he gets a bad rep look the hulk beats him so everyone wants to think he isnt realy all that smart but its his super power.

Apocalypse is master of Celestial Technology, of genetics and biochemistry far more advance than what this world could offer. He even found ways to outwit powerful telepaths like Xavier and Jean Grey, even an Omega Level Mutant like Franklin Richards and captured them.

So big old guy, I'm sorry but you're out of your mind if you think you could school me.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

In terms of pure intellect I have to say that the Leader is definately the more intelligent by a good margin. As for the Hulk hitting speedsters, I am aware that they have shown him doing so. It is still an impossibility whether they have shown it or not. A lot of writers seem to either ignore this or simply don't understand what speed really is. They seem to act as if it is simply increased forward velocity rather than the apparent slowing down of time.

 

[wolf1023]

sorry if I offendid you with the school you thing, but it still doesent matter if he has tecnology or not the point is still valid, the hulk has beaten people who plane for him and won. besides apoc is just like the hulk in one respect, action. he is all about fighting, man I know just to proove some point of survivle of the fitist that he would fight hulk head on, just like what he did with dracula, and I am aware that dracula almost beating apoc pissis you off it pissed me off too but heay it happened and it wasent some wiered novel wear they made apoc look weak he just legitimitly almost lost.in the end I side with the green guy not only because I am a fan but I just think he could win I have given resones why and I havent ruled out apoc wining, I love both these charicters, it just so happens that I bought dracula vs. apoc originaly just because I realy like apocalypse. and as far as speedsters go eh there fast but they dont hurt the hulk, he caint catch them draw all around unless it is the flash with the speed force then everyone is screwed.

 

[wolf1023]

by the way. ?"big old guy"? I kind of like it. lol

 

[rodhulk]

FYI: Considering ones opinion as a fact is tantamount to arrogance. And someone who is showing arrogance is being arrogant.



Hulk is not the only one with limitless strength. Apocalypse's strength is also limitless. Silver Surfer, the Fallen One, Morg and Tyrant also have limitless strength.



It does with the debate. You were the one who started to argue on who is stronger among the two.



Really? Did I claim that what I said is fact? I know Apocalypse is smarter than Leader simply by comparing their intellectual feats just like me knowing that Hulk is stronger than Juggernaut by comparing their strength feats. And I consider my opinion to be correct.

You on the other hand considered Apocalypse's record weak as a fact just because writters make him lose in the end just like what they do to every villain.
That is clearly being arrogant.



What I got is common sense. Apocalypse is clearly at Hulk's strength class, he has more powers up his sleaves and he can augment all of them and he as celestial tech to use any time. Hulk has only one way to increase his strength, rage. What happends if Apocalypse effectively prevents Hulk from getting madder? He does not get stronger. Apoc then can increase his strength to levels beyond Hulk's base strength when he is calm and sucker punch him.
Is that the only way for Apocalypse? No. He can fool Hulk like what the Illuminati did and send Hulk to the sun. And there are more ways Apocalypse can come up with to beat Hulk when he is given prep time.



I disagree. If its a random fight with no prep time, Hulk has the advantage. With prep time, Apocalypse has all the advantage.

Ummm, I corrected my one point but kept the other because it is fact. You obviously don't own alot of comics.

Hulk is the one that is said to be the strongest more often than not. This puts him above the others. To add if you can comprehend, Marvel often say things that aren't true. Such as.... THE UNSTOPPABLE JUGGERNAUT.... who has been stopped, THE INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, who has been beat, etc..... Like it or not, Hulk gets the edge here in the strength arena over Apoc.

I argued who was stronger than the two becuase if you had a memory, YOU brought it up?????

I'm not saying Leader is smarter than Apoc just as you can't say Apoc is smarter than the Leader. We don't know. They've both done some intelligent stuff. As for Hulk and Juggs, I favor Hulk because Marvel has said more often than not that Hulk is the strongest. I'm not sure if this has even ever been said once about Juggs.

Still, as for saying Apoc's record is weak, it's irregardless of the writers cause it happened, it's canon, it's FACT.

And many other villains have better track records than Apoc, like Dr. Doom (whom Hulk has also beaten). So, Apoc is not the big heavyweight that you're making him out to be.

You say you have common sense? Then, by gosh, start using it! I already said Apoc can beat the Hulk sometimes, with or without prep, but with his dismal track record, I can't believe Apoc would take the majority, even with prep.

 

[wolf1023]

well spoken, or writen...you know what would realy happen if they fight. nothing.

 

[Toby_Temple]

Ummm, I corrected my one point but kept the other because it is fact. You obviously don't own alot of comics.

????

Hulk is the one that is said to be the strongest more often than not. This puts him above the others. To add if you can comprehend, Marvel often say things that aren't true. Such as.... THE UNSTOPPABLE JUGGERNAUT.... who has been stopped, THE INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, who has been beat, etc..... Like it or not, Hulk gets the edge here in the strength arena over Apoc.

Back at you. Comics labeled Hulk the strongest one there is just as they labeled Juggernaut as unstoppable. Read your comics again. What you stated above is your biased opinion.

I argued who was stronger than the two becuase if you had a memory, YOU brought it up?????

Wrong again. I stated that Apocalypse can augment his strength beyong Hulk's class. You can check it again.

I'm not saying Leader is smarter than Apoc just as you can't say Apoc is smarter than the Leader. We don't know. They've both done some intelligent stuff. As for Hulk and Juggs, I favor Hulk because Marvel has said more often than not that Hulk is the strongest. I'm not sure if this has even ever been said once about Juggs.

You mean you don't know. Again, the label strongest is just the same as the label unstoppable. Anyone who really knows almost every marvel character that Hulk is not absolutely the strongest one there is. Living Tribunal proves that fact.

Still, as for saying Apoc's record is weak, it's irregardless of the writers cause it happened, it's canon, it's FACT.

No one is arguing about comic facts. What we are arguing is who would win in a fight between Apocalyse and Hulk if prep time is given. If we base this argument on you're mindset then Hulk would win against Galactus even with prep time just by looking at there track record.

And many other villains have better track records than Apoc, like Dr. Doom (whom Hulk has also beaten). So, Apoc is not the big heavyweight that you're making him out to be.

Apocalypse turned Hulk into his lackey while Dr. Doom tried to kill/KO Hulk and failed. Comparing there track records with Hulk, it shows that Apocalypse is the better villain.

You say you have common sense? Then, by gosh, start using it! I already said Apoc can beat the Hulk sometimes, with or without prep, but with his dismal track record, I can't believe Apoc would take the majority, even with prep.

Yes I do have common sense and you clearly don't. We are not debating if Apocalypse could beat Hulk sometimes. Do I really have to repeat the topic several times for you?

 

[wolf1023]

wow that was pretty good too so your saying apoc caint beat the hulk sometimes but instead every time. that doesent seem likey, whenever it mentions that apoc can increas his streangth above the hulks they refer to his base streangth, 100 tons.So how can you rais your streangth above someone who streangth changes constantly. I have one question, do you think with brute streangth alone apoc can pull a planet back togeather?and by the way I am not going off of titles here I know both these charicters inside and out.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

I ran across scans the other day on another site that show Apocalypse fighting the High Evolutionary to a standstill. The High Evolutionary is a Galactus level being. The Hulk could barely destroy the High Evolutionary's armor even when H.E. wanted him to. Even then he didn't do it well enough.

 

[wolf1023]

well I caint say anything to that. except that we are talking about a fight between the hulk and apoc not high evolutionary and the hulk. but I didnt know that can you give me the link so I can see it.