Hulk vs. X3 vs. SR vs. GR vs. FF2

[X-Maniac]

X3 made the money it did through the popularity of the first 2 movies, the big drop off after the first week was a big indicator of this, if not for its smashing first weekend, which was based on hype from the first 2 movies almost alone.

It wasn’t just hype from the previous movies. It was the marketing of X3 – Hugh and Halle on chat shows like Friday Night with Jonathan Ross (which I missed, annoyingly); the buzz among fans of knowing they’d see Beast, Angel, Danger Room, Juggernaut etc; the excellent trailers. Given the three years since X2, I think X3 had to rely on much more than the response from a film three years ago.

Note the massive opening weekend happened despite the concerns over Ratner, despite the concerns over the absence of Singer (concerns that were not part of the mainstream but only in movie industry circles and internet sites such as this), and despite the leaked early script draft, and despite the intensity of concern over Cyclops’ fate before the movie. That tells us that the mainstream viewing audience is not fussed about directorial changes or angry little fanboy worries.

As for critical ratings, i do believe X3 was withheld from many critics before and during its release, this also happened with GR, and the first FF movie. TF, and the Pirates movies were not, so that gives X3 an advantage in the critical ratings IMO. At the moment X3 has more reviews on there than any of them, but it has been out longer than TF and POTC 2 and 3 also. Also, with TF, most critics tend to make a decision on Michael Bay movies before they even see them, and the majority of the time, they are right to, but TF was obviously different, and if you want to go into BO, TF smashed X3 at the BO and in DVD sales.

It wasn’t withheld at all. I saw it at an early media screening, many others on here did too. I saw FF2 at an early media screening too and even got to meet Alba and Chiklis in person and have pictures taken with them. The fact is that X3 built an exciting buzz as a must-see action-adventure blockbuster through its trailer and its marketing. But I think critics had also made their mind up about it being a Ratner-helmed movie well before they saw it; some of the reviews mention the behind-the-scenes production stuff that most viewers either don’t know or don’t care about.

The number of ratings for X3 against those for Pirates and TF is irrelevant – we can’t take this into account or we’d be wanting the exact same number of reviews for every movie on RT. That just doesn’t happen. The rating is the rating. If you want you can also take into account the ratings at IMDB or Metacritic or the score given by BoxOfficeMojo. There’ll be some variation of course.

Metacritic –
X-3: critics’ rating 58 (out of 100), user rating 6.1 (out of 10)
Transformers: critics 61, users 7
Pirates 2: critics 53, users 6.6
(for comparison/interest, Superman Returns: critics 72, users 5.7)

Box Office Mojo grading: TF gets a B+, Pirates 2 gets a B, X3 also a B (SR gets a B as well)

IMDB user rating: TF gets 7.6, Pirates 2 gets 7.3, X3 gets 7 (SR gets 6.8)

What does all that prove? The Metacritic critics liked SR, but users didn’t like it as much – they liked TF most of all. Box Office Mojo thought X3 and Pirates 2 (and SR) deserved the same grade, whereas TF got a slightly higher grade. TF also was winner at IMDB.

I haven’t seen TF so I can’t offer my verdict on it, but it’s obvious here more than anything that the movies critics love (SR) are not the movies most loved by the public users. Good luck to TF, I have nothing against it but the content matter doesn’t really interest me – for those familiar with the animated series and the toys, I’m sure there was tremendous interest, which reflects in the box office. It’s hardly meant to be a deep, meaningful, intelligent movie (with a robot peeing on someone or whatever); you yourself only like it because you have a fondness for the robots through growing up with the cartoons or toys. And I’m sure it’s a great piece of fantasy ‘popcorn’ action-adventure.

Also, funnily, reading the majority of fresh reviews on there, they all seem to think it is average at best, so how it got such a critical rating is beyond me.

Then you need to research how RT rates its movies. There is a FAQ section on the site.

Yes the conflict went no were, Callisto served NO other purpose than to fight with Storm and locate Jean for Magneto, her role was pretty much meaningless.

I don’t consider it meaningless that she located Mystique and thus enabled Magneto to find and free those on the prison truck, that she sensed Phoenix and told Magneto so he could get her on his side, confirmed that the boy was on Alcatraz, and that she stopped Storm taking out more of the Brotherhood army by leaping on top of her as she flew up to manipulate the elements.

Whos to say he had the most experience in combat? He cant remember whether he had or not remember, Storm seemed more than proficient in combat.

Well, he was a cage fighter in a bar in X1, which indicates combat skills; and has consistently shown fighting skills in all three movies. Though he didn’t always win, especially when pitted against exceptionally strong or exceptionally agile mutants, he obviously had the most combat experience.

Or maybe your bias towards the movie clouds your mind into thinking this was a great idea by the writers.

I think her taking the cure is questionable but, from a real-world perspective, it’s valid and reasonable. I’d rather she hadn’t taken it, and so would most X-fans. I’m not clouded by bias, you are clouded by some kind of strange anger and bitterness that I cannot figure out.

I do believe that both Paquin and Marsden ended up having more time than they originally thought they would, considering the script supposedly changed daily, couldnt they have done something here, oh right i forgot, Ratner, Kinberg and Penn were running the show, 3 clueless hacks.

Most scripts change during filming. There were 150 drafts of the SR script, for example. But the facts remain that Rogue is the key candidate for the cure among the known main characters in the series, that Rogue has no battle skills/experience, that we couldn’t suddenly have the superwoman version of Rogue from the comics, and that Paquin wasn’t available and had to be written out of a lot of the movie.

As for Kitty, your right, her role wasnt insignificant, those 6 lines she had totally got her involved.

What do you expect in a multi-character ensemble movie? The number of lines of dialogue is irrelevant – how many lines did silent stalker Superman have in SR? Hardly any. Kitty had a great role, for a newcomer to the X-Men team it was fine and she proved her place. I’d like to see a lot more from her – she has great capabilities.

Jean and eventually were BOTH on the floor below Storm and Toad, and both were close to the fight, once Toad threw Storm down the lift shaft, she was able to go wild enough with her powers to dispense of Toad without harming her team-mates.

A quick blast of lightning from Storm would have directly dealt with him but Singer decided against that aspect of the character. It’s only the inadequacy of Storm’s portrayal in X1 that makes her battle against Toad so frustrating, until she comes out of the lift.

Oh yes, and in the 99 minute running time, those theme's were thoroughly explored werent they

But oddly those themes were explored more than any of the themes in SR. We had a reasonable coverage of the main theme of freedom of choice (to be what you are) and the secondary idea of power corrupting. It doesn’t take too many brain cells to see those ideas present throughout the movie. What was SR’s theme again?

NO, i havent been given ONE valid theory of why Jean went with Magneto, or why she never left him once she became Jean again in those few scene's. OR why she standed around doing nothing the final battle, Magneto had been her enemy for years, and had tried to kill her about 4 times during that conflict, so please, tell me again WHY did she go with him.

I’ve already explained countless times. Read the answer I gave before. I’m really not sure what you are on, but all this talk about Magneto trying to kill Jean four times is rubbish. The Phoenix was in full control after Xavier’s death – just because she wasn’t killing anything doesn’t mean it was Jean. When Storm says ‘she’s gone’ she means not just physically, but that Jean has been suppressed by the more powerful Phoenix personality. Jean couldn’t return to the mansion in any case; after what Phoenix had done, there was no going back. What if Jean/Phoenix had gone back to the mansion after killing Xavier? What then? What do they do to solve the problem? Tell her to go for a lie-down and take a Valium? They’d be harbouring someone who had killed two people and destroyed a house, so they’d have to call police or mental health authorities. With Xavier dead, who could fix the problem? We aren’t made aware of a network of psychic mutants available for mental barrier installation work at short notice. Your arguments make no sense. Going with Magneto is the only option, both for the purposes of the story and the logic of the character’s actions. The Phoenix story is about the corruption by power, it is about a journey taken down a dark path, with no turning back. It’s not about Phoenix swanning back into the mansion and apologising and being taken away into an asylum – where any attempts to fix the problem would only result in more Phoenix destruction. This is where bitter agenda-driven people like you always fall down – you criticise the movie but can never come up with anything better than what was on screen. You only end up proving that what was on screen makes the most sense.

We didnt get their origins but we at least got a bit of info on them, we found out very little about Beast, and what we did get was vague at best.

What we got was fine. I’m always wanting more X-Men stuff on screen so I’d have loved more but in terms of what we saw, it was fine. Originally, Beast was to have driven Magneto and Xavier to Jean’s house at the start of the movie and Xavier would have wished him well in pursuit of political ambitions, but that didn’t make it because Beast was human in the brief TV appearance in X2. I think what we saw was fine and will almost certainly be expanded upon in other movies.

I have said this before but that is just a bull**** excuse for an obvious plot-hole, no one but you, and ONLY you (not even the film-makers have ever made this observation), have made this poor excuse for that poor part of the movie.

Ratner says on the commentary that he wanted Angel’s appearance to be a surprise. Obviously, showing him stowing away on the X-jet would then beg the question as to what he was doing all the time between the jet landing and when he rescued his father, and it would make the rescuing of his father a bit predictable and obvious.
SHH member The Guard also mentioned Angel’s appearance being implied to be like a religious angel, and I agree. I like Guard’s logical, analytical, sensible approach to things. I agree that Angel’s sudden appearance is not explained…but it’s not impossible and from a narrative/visual standpoint, I can see why it was done.

Also on Angel, i would have liked to see what made him go from little kid scared of his mutation to the point of almost mutilating himself, to the guy who couldnt bear the thought of being without his mutation, and we should have got that, but alas, Ratner wanted to get to the next action scene of course.

Angel finally decided to stand up to his father. In the circumstances, it was ‘now or never.’ He was forced into a corner, quite literally. If he was going to speak up and live his own life, that was the moment. It was a character turning point. I don’t think he was ever scared of his mutation even though it must have been hard to deal with it – he was more scared of his father, hence hiding in the bathroom AWAY from his father. Worthington Snr was a high-powered billionaire industrialist, there would be a lot of pressure on his son to conform to the perfect corporate image. A winged mutant for a son wouldn’t fit daddy’s ideals, especially with Warren in line to inherit the company.

Anyway, we should have got a bit more from Angel, I agree. But it doesn’t take much to fill in the gaps. You seem able to make so many interpretations and extrapolations and explanations with SR, so try doing the same with X3 or other movies.

As i have said before, BO was due to the previous movies, NOT the quality of the movie, the quality of the movie was responsible for the huge drop-off.

The drop-off would be considerable as it was a normal two-day weekend coming after a four-day holiday weekend (in the US anyway). It was the must-see movie of that holiday weekend.
This is the front-loading effect of today’s movies, partly down to the ‘I want it now’ society and partly the multiplexes (tons of screens) allowing people to see the movie on opening weekend rather than wait. (Similarly, new music releases aim for the top slot as soon as they are released; anything outside the top 10 is seen as a failure. Records at No 2 have been described as a ‘flop.’!!!)

Even X3’s second weekend ($34m) is higher than the second weekend of SR ($22m), not much less than TF’s second weekend ($37m), the same as the second weekend of Pirates 1, and higher than Batman Begins’ second weekend of $28m. The second weekend was obviously not that bad, just a stark contrast to the amazing opening on a holiday weekend.

A piece on the changing face of movie releases here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0A2575BC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Also, you loved Hulk (I thought it was quite good, but also flawed) but look at the drop-off on that. It had a 70 per cent drop the second weekend (both were normal weekends, the first was not a holiday weekends) and it comes in the top 50 of biggest second weekend drop-offs.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/drops.htm

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It wasn’t just hype from the previous movies. It was the marketing of X3 – Hugh and Halle on chat shows like Friday Night with Jonathan Ross (which I missed, annoyingly); the buzz among fans of knowing they’d see Beast, Angel, Danger Room, Juggernaut etc; the excellent trailers. Given the three years since X2, I think X3 had to rely on much more than the response from a film three years ago.

Note the massive opening weekend happened despite the concerns over Ratner, despite the concerns over the absence of Singer (concerns that were not part of the mainstream but only in movie industry circles and internet sites such as this), and despite the leaked early script draft, and despite the intensity of concern over Cyclops’ fate before the movie. That tells us that the mainstream viewing audience is not fussed about directorial changes or angry little fanboy worries.

I doubt the mainstream even knew about the change of director, i bet if you asked them all, before watching the movie they though Singer was directing, i knew a few people like that, yet they still didnt like the movie. THATS why the movie was successful, that, the short run-time, and the release date all helped, but when you consider the budget, etc, X3 didnt make as much profit as X2 or possibly X1.

It wasn’t withheld at all. I saw it at an early media screening, many others on here did too. I saw FF2 at an early media screening too and even got to meet Alba and Chiklis in person and have pictures taken with them. The fact is that X3 built an exciting buzz as a must-see action-adventure blockbuster through its trailer and its marketing. But I think critics had also made their mind up about it being a Ratner-helmed movie well before they saw it; some of the reviews mention the behind-the-scenes production stuff that most viewers either don’t know or don’t care about.

The number of ratings for X3 against those for Pirates and TF is irrelevant – we can’t take this into account or we’d be wanting the exact same number of reviews for every movie on RT. That just doesn’t happen. The rating is the rating. If you want you can also take into account the ratings at IMDB or Metacritic or the score given by BoxOfficeMojo. There’ll be some variation of course.

Metacritic –
X-3: critics’ rating 58 (out of 100), user rating 6.1 (out of 10)
Transformers: critics 61, users 7
Pirates 2: critics 53, users 6.6
(for comparison/interest, Superman Returns: critics 72, users 5.7)

Box Office Mojo grading: TF gets a B+, Pirates 2 gets a B, X3 also a B (SR gets a B as well)

IMDB user rating: TF gets 7.6, Pirates 2 gets 7.3, X3 gets 7 (SR gets 6.8)

What does all that prove? The Metacritic critics liked SR, but users didn’t like it as much – they liked TF most of all. Box Office Mojo thought X3 and Pirates 2 (and SR) deserved the same grade, whereas TF got a slightly higher grade. TF also was winner at IMDB.

X3 was withheld from many critics at the time, i remember, and its not the only movie to have been, AvP was, Eragon was, and Ghost Rider was. Its a typical studio ploy to avoid bad hype on the opening weekend.

[B}I haven’t seen TF so I can’t offer my verdict on it[/B], but it’s obvious here more than anything that the movies critics love (SR) are not the movies most loved by the public users. Good luck to TF, I have nothing against it but the content matter doesn’t really interest me – for those familiar with the animated series and the toys, I’m sure there was tremendous interest, which reflects in the box office. It’s hardly meant to be a deep, meaningful, intelligent movie (with a robot peeing on someone or whatever); you yourself only like it because you have a fondness for the robots through growing up with the cartoons or toys. And I’m sure it’s a great piece of fantasy ‘popcorn’ action-adventure.

This shows your bias towards X3 then, because i have heard you calling TF cliche and an explosion fest on the SR boards yet you havent even seen TF! Talk about judging a book by its cover, all this just to defend X3, ridiculous.

Then you need to research how RT rates its movies. There is a FAQ section on the site.

But the fact remains, most of the fresh reviews are hardly endorsing of the movie.

I don’t consider it meaningless that she located Mystique and thus enabled Magneto to find and free those on the prison truck, that she sensed Phoenix and told Magneto so he could get her on his side, confirmed that the boy was on Alcatraz, and that she stopped Storm taking out more of the Brotherhood army by leaping on top of her as she flew up to manipulate the elements.

The ONLY reason Mystique was located was for her to be cured to give Magneto some shallow motivation.

Well, he was a cage fighter in a bar in X1, which indicates combat skills; and has consistently shown fighting skills in all three movies. Though he didn’t always win, especially when pitted against exceptionally strong or exceptionally agile mutants, he obviously had the most combat experience.

Anyone could be a cage fighter though, so this is irrelevant, doesnt mean he would have experience in a combat situation.

I think her taking the cure is questionable but, from a real-world perspective, it’s valid and reasonable. I’d rather she hadn’t taken it, and so would most X-fans. I’m not clouded by bias, you are clouded by some kind of strange anger and bitterness that I cannot figure out.

I am angry and bitter because Fox treated the fans, the franchise, and the characters like ****, constantly lying to us about the script, characters, etc, and i am angry because i have wanted to see The Pheonix saga on the big screen since i was 12, but instead i get an extremely poor movie which didnt even reach a quarter of the potential of its story.

Most scripts change during filming. There were 150 drafts of the SR script, for example. But the facts remain that Rogue is the key candidate for the cure among the known main characters in the series, that Rogue has no battle skills/experience, that we couldn’t suddenly have the superwoman version of Rogue from the comics, and that Paquin wasn’t available and had to be written out of a lot of the movie.

Kitty had no battle skills but she fared ok, Rogue had been training in the danger room same as her, she could have been easily utilised. I wasnt asking for the Rogue of the cartoon, it was obvious from the start we wouldnt be getting that.

What do you expect in a multi-character ensemble movie? The number of lines of dialogue is irrelevant – how many lines did silent stalker Superman have in SR? Hardly any. Kitty had a great role, for a newcomer to the X-Men team it was fine and she proved her place. I’d like to see a lot more from her – she has great capabilities.

What do i expect from a mutli-character ensemble movie? For the movie to last LONGER than 99 mins.

And Superman had plenty of lines in SR, not to mention his facial expressions were often used to tell us what he was thinking at that moment, Kitty basically had the same face all movie.

A quick blast of lightning from Storm would have directly dealt with him but Singer decided against that aspect of the character. It’s only the inadequacy of Storm’s portrayal in X1 that makes her battle against Toad so frustrating, until she comes out of the lift.

Can she use lightning indoors with no open windows or doors open though? She hasnt in the movies previously or since so it seems she doesnt have that capability. Also, it seemed in the movie she only unleashed when she was a good distance away from her team-mates, at least until later on, but the situation was more desperate then Magneto's machine was working away.

But oddly those themes were explored more than any of the themes in SR. We had a reasonable coverage of the main theme of freedom of choice (to be what you are) and the secondary idea of power corrupting. It doesn’t take too many brain cells to see those ideas present throughout the movie. What was SR’s theme again?

SR's theme was alienation, it was explored 10 times more than X3's theme's were in the first half of the movie alone. There were other, smaller theme's also, that were explored more than any in X3. And once again, why mention SR, or any other movie for that matter, we are talking about X3.

I’ve already explained countless times. Read the answer I gave before. I’m really not sure what you are on, but all this talk about Magneto trying to kill Jean four times is rubbish. The Phoenix was in full control after Xavier’s death – just because she wasn’t killing anything doesn’t mean it was Jean. When Storm says ‘she’s gone’ she means not just physically, but that Jean has been suppressed by the more powerful Phoenix personality. Jean couldn’t return to the mansion in any case; after what Phoenix had done, there was no going back. What if Jean/Phoenix had gone back to the mansion after killing Xavier? What then? What do they do to solve the problem? Tell her to go for a lie-down and take a Valium? They’d be harbouring someone who had killed two people and destroyed a house, so they’d have to call police or mental health authorities. With Xavier dead, who could fix the problem? We aren’t made aware of a network of psychic mutants available for mental barrier installation work at short notice. Your arguments make no sense. Going with Magneto is the only option, both for the purposes of the story and the logic of the character’s actions. The Phoenix story is about the corruption by power, it is about a journey taken down a dark path, with no turning back. It’s not about Phoenix swanning back into the mansion and apologising and being taken away into an asylum – where any attempts to fix the problem would only result in more Phoenix destruction. This is where bitter agenda-driven people like you always fall down – you criticise the movie but can never come up with anything better than what was on screen. You only end up proving that what was on screen makes the most sense.

So Magneto has never tried to kill or injure Jean in the previous movies before? Did you watch them? It might have been his henchman

Again, why would she go with a man who she had been fighting against for possibly half of her life and one who is known for at least 2 major terrorist acts during which he didnt care for the wellbeing of anyone who got in his way. And Jean wasnt gone at all, if she was gone, she wouldnt have called Wolverine to Magneto's base (although why she did just to stare at him anyway is beyond me), or she wouldnt have asked Wolverine to kill her at the ridiculous conclusion. Jean was still there, so again, WHY did she go with Magneto?

What we got was fine. I’m always wanting more X-Men stuff on screen so I’d have loved more but in terms of what we saw, it was fine. Originally, Beast was to have driven Magneto and Xavier to Jean’s house at the start of the movie and Xavier would have wished him well in pursuit of political ambitions, but that didn’t make it because Beast was human in the brief TV appearance in X2. I think what we saw was fine and will almost certainly be expanded upon in other movies.

I do believe the writers said the cameo as a human in X2 wasnt in X3 continuity, in fact Kinberg and Penn said they disregarded it completely,another thing they messed up, so that does not excuse them not using Beast in the opening either.

Ratner says on the commentary that he wanted Angel’s appearance to be a surprise. Obviously, showing him stowing away on the X-jet would then beg the question as to what he was doing all the time between the jet landing and when he rescued his father, and it would make the rescuing of his father a bit predictable and obvious.
SHH member The Guard also mentioned Angel’s appearance being implied to be like a religious angel, and I agree. I like Guard’s logical, analytical, sensible approach to things. I agree that Angel’s sudden appearance is not explained…but it’s not impossible and from a narrative/visual standpoint, I can see why it was done.

Yes, but Ratner doesnt mention Angel's surprise entrance to be in any related to mythic or religious characters, he says he did it because "it was better." What a truly intellegent director we got!

Angel finally decided to stand up to his father. In the circumstances, it was ‘now or never.’ He was forced into a corner, quite literally. If he was going to speak up and live his own life, that was the moment. It was a character turning point. I don’t think he was ever scared of his mutation even though it must have been hard to deal with it – he was more scared of his father, hence hiding in the bathroom AWAY from his father. Worthington Snr was a high-powered billionaire industrialist, there would be a lot of pressure on his son to conform to the perfect corporate image. A winged mutant for a son wouldn’t fit daddy’s ideals, especially with Warren in line to inherit the company.

Was evidence did the movie give that Worthington Snr was a high-powered billionaire industrialist, he never says this once in the movie, he could have just been a scientest working for a huge company for all we know.

There may have been a sign with his name outside one of the buildings but it was never made obvious.

Anyway, we should have got a bit more from Angel, I agree. But it doesn’t take much to fill in the gaps. You seem able to make so many interpretations and extrapolations and explanations with SR, so try doing the same with X3 or other movies.

Because in SR and other movies we are given enough info to fill in the gaps ourselves, with the majority of X3, we get very little if anything at all, cant fill in the gaps if there is nothing to base your assumptions on.

The drop-off would be considerable as it was a normal two-day weekend coming after a four-day holiday weekend (in the US anyway). It was the must-see movie of that holiday weekend.
This is the front-loading effect of today’s movies, partly down to the ‘I want it now’ society and partly the multiplexes (tons of screens) allowing people to see the movie on opening weekend rather than wait. (Similarly, new music releases aim for the top slot as soon as they are released; anything outside the top 10 is seen as a failure. Records at No 2 have been described as a ‘flop.’!!!)

Even X3’s second weekend ($34m) is higher than the second weekend of SR ($22m), not much less than TF’s second weekend ($37m), the same as the second weekend of Pirates 1, and higher than Batman Begins’ second weekend of $28m. The second weekend was obviously not that bad, just a stark contrast to the amazing opening on a holiday weekend.

A piece on the changing face of movie releases here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0A2575BC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

But X3 had a much better opening weekend than TF, SR and all 3 POTC movies, X3 had the best one of the year, a date that is renowned for the amount of money movies released on that date have made. Not the case with the release dates of the other movies.

Also, you loved Hulk (I thought it was quite good, but also flawed) but look at the drop-off on that. It had a 70 per cent drop the second weekend (both were normal weekends, the first was not a holiday weekends) and it comes in the top 50 of biggest second weekend drop-offs.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/drops.htm

Yes i loved Hulk, thought it was good, but i can understand why others dont like it, and i dont criticise others for not liking it, which i have seen you do when defending X3 numerous times.

 

[X-Maniac]

I doubt the mainstream even knew about the change of director, i bet if you asked them all, before watching the movie they though Singer was directing, i knew a few people like that, yet they still didnt like the movie. THATS why the movie was successful, that, the short run-time, and the release date all helped, but when you consider the budget, etc, X3 didnt make as much profit as X2 or possibly X1.

The profit depends on your source. The Numbers website puts X3's budget at $150m, Box Office Mojo puts it at $210m. Someone on here said a Reuters article put the budget at $160m. Each of those gives a different profit compared with the gross earnings of $459m. Either way, it made a profit. Not as much as X2, but then less was spent on X2. ($125m according to The Numbers, less according to Box Office Mojo)

I believe marketing was what made the movie a hit, as well as it being everywhere on that holiday weekend. Whether people you know liked it or not, I really don't care, but I saw it several times (after the advance screening) and it was packed and getting good reaction. Entire families were in there, so it was obviously a family movie that holiday weekend.

I think you are expecting far too much and taking the movie far too personally just because it wasn't the exact movie you had inside your head.

X3 was withheld from many critics at the time, i remember, and its not the only movie to have been, AvP was, Eragon was, and Ghost Rider was. Its a typical studio ploy to avoid bad hype on the opening weekend.

Without evidence, I don't believe you over X3 being withheld. I saw it well before official release and in plenty of time for media reviews to be written about it.

This shows your bias towards X3 then, because i have heard you calling TF cliche and an explosion fest on the SR boards yet you havent even seen TF! Talk about judging a book by its cover, all this just to defend X3, ridiculous.

I certainly don't want too many cliches and explosions in movies and there are those who say TF was like that, so I've said I don't want that sort of thing. But I can't specifically say for myself if TF felt like that because I didn't see it, and probably won't see it unless it becomes a cheap bargain or on TV.

But the fact remains, most of the fresh reviews are hardly endorsing of the movie.

But the fact remains that the rating is the rating. No matter how much you try to wriggle out of it, the RT ratings are 57 per cent, the same as TF, twice that of Ghost Rider, and higher than Pirates 2 and 3. That's a fact. It cannot be argued. Whatever those reviews twitter on about should be reflected in the rating. There is negative and positive in all the reviews - but there is definitely positive. 'Enjoyable blockbuster'. 'Powerful punch'. 'Worthy enough sequel.' 'Eye-filling fantasy extravaganza'. 'Big crowd-pleaser.' All those phrases on the first page. Yes, there's negative too, and I have no problem with that, but your assertion that the reviews do not endorse the movie is clearly not a fact that remains at all.

The ONLY reason Mystique was located was for her to be cured to give Magneto some shallow motivation.

I thought Mystique being cured was a great scene. In fact, I'd have made it an even stronger motivation to stop the cure; I'd have made his grief, shock and anger at Mystique being cured into a stronger driving force.

Anyone could be a cage fighter though, so this is irrelevant, doesnt mean he would have experience in a combat situation.

We're not talking about 'anyone'. We're talking about Wolverine compared with the rest of the X-Men. He was almost certainly the most experienced fighter, due to his past as a cage fighter and Weapon X killing machine.

I am angry and bitter because Fox treated the fans, the franchise, and the characters like ****, constantly lying to us about the script, characters, etc, and i am angry because i have wanted to see The Pheonix saga on the big screen since i was 12, but instead i get an extremely poor movie which didnt even reach a quarter of the potential of its story.

You were never going to get the Phoenix Saga you were familiar with from the cartoons. We never got it in X1 or X2 either. Jean's story was a sub-plot - the main plot is always socio-political. How you react to what we saw is up to you... but Fox obviously were trying to please fans by putting in things such as Beast, Angel, Danger Room, a Sentinel, Juggernaut and Multiple Man. Fans online were wanting all those things. You are expecting far too much.

Kitty had no battle skills but she fared ok, Rogue had been training in the danger room same as her, she could have been easily utilised. I wasnt asking for the Rogue of the cartoon, it was obvious from the start we wouldnt be getting that.

Kitty's power is far more useful, she can avoid attacks by phasing; Rogue can't avoid being hurt unless she has touched someone who has useful powers. We saw all this in the DR sequence. It indicated the usefulness of the characters' powers. Kitty was able to let a missile phase through her and Bobby, Rogue had to be touched by Colossus to avoid being hurt. It's obvious Kitty is more useful in battle.

What do i expect from a mutli-character ensemble movie? For the movie to last LONGER than 99 mins.

Well, you expect far too much and get far too angry about everything, but I'd always like X3 to be longer.

And Superman had plenty of lines in SR, not to mention his facial expressions were often used to tell us what he was thinking at that moment, Kitty basically had the same face all movie.

Superman had hardly any lines, and Routh's facial expressions were non-existent.

So Magneto has never tried to kill or injure Jean in the previous movies before? Did you watch them? It might have been his henchman

I've never seen Magneto try to kill or injure Jean. Toad spat goo on her, Magneto left all the X-Men at the dam (including Xavier) but he may not have been aware the dam was about to rupture. So, no, Magneto has not tried to kill Jean four times. I don't know what the hell you are on about.

Again, why would she go with a man who she had been fighting against for possibly half of her life and one who is known for at least 2 major terrorist acts during which he didnt care for the wellbeing of anyone who got in his way. And Jean wasnt gone at all, if she was gone, she wouldnt have called Wolverine to Magneto's base (although why she did just to stare at him anyway is beyond me), or she wouldnt have asked Wolverine to kill her at the ridiculous conclusion. Jean was still there, so again, WHY did she go with Magneto?

I've explained it multiple times, it's getting boring repeating myself if you are going to be pig-headed. I can't imagine what you want to happen instead of Jean/Phoenix going off with Magneto. It's the only viable option. Suggest to me something better. Instead of asking the same question, which I keep answering, suggest what should have happened. Let's look at the alternatives.

I do believe the writers said the cameo as a human in X2 wasnt in X3 continuity, in fact Kinberg and Penn said they disregarded it completely,another thing they messed up, so that does not excuse them not using Beast in the opening either.

Who cares!? Beast in X2 wasn't even a proper cameo, it was on a TV in a bar, and most people didn't notice it. Singer had to cut a sequence where Hank turned blue and furry at the end when Cerebro targeted mutants and made their powers go crazy. Just imagine that happened and we're fine. Simple. Otherwise, forget the TV image, it was an Easter egg for fans and nothing more. It's not worth obsessing any more than the three different actresses playing Kitty or the different Pyro in X1 or the loss of Storm's accent and change of hairstyles between X1 and X2. Nitpicking over the TV image of Hank McCoy in X2 is plainly silly. Move along. Jesus, get a life Aveit, you are in danger of disappearing up your own plothole!

Yes, but Ratner doesnt mention Angel's surprise entrance to be in any related to mythic or religious characters, he says he did it because "it was better." What a truly intellegent director we got!

Ratner wanted a surprise. That's all there is to it. You either like it or you don't.

I’m hoping he gets to direct a Superman movie just so I can see your reaction! It would be priceless. You’d probably end up having a stroke!

Was evidence did the movie give that Worthington Snr was a high-powered billionaire industrialist, he never says this once in the movie, he could have just been a scientest working for a huge company for all we know.

There may have been a sign with his name outside one of the buildings but it was never made obvious.

Oh come on. Now you are just being thick, or pretending to be thick. It was called Worthington Labs. I'd say Worthington Snr was heavily involved in something called Worthington Labs without much doubt. Come on, Aveit, are you really that dense?! Now i know for sure that your criticisms of X3 are all ridiculous. Thanks for proving it. Get some basic comprehension skills going on here!

Because in SR and other movies we are given enough info to fill in the gaps ourselves, with the majority of X3, we get very little if anything at all, cant fill in the gaps if there is nothing to base your assumptions on.

We are given hardly any info in SR. Singer himself speaks of vague history. The story in SR makes no sense. Mega joe and others have argued this, and even C Lee agrees that the backstory is unclear and makes Superman seem selfish and irresponsible. You know full well what the SR forums say.

But X3 had a much better opening weekend than TF, SR and all 3 POTC movies, X3 had the best one of the year, a date that is renowned for the amount of money movies released on that date have made. Not the case with the release dates of the other movies.

I wasn't talking about the opening weekend, I was talking about the second weekend figures. You saw exactly what i was quoting - I listed the takings for the second weekends. The weekend after a holiday weekend is traditionally quieter because people stay home and save money or catch up with normal weekend activities, and yet X3 still managed to make more on a normally quiet second weekend (one coming after a holiday weekend) than the other movies I quoted on their second weekends. The only factor here is that there was a sharp drop from an amazing, traditionally-busy holiday weekend. And that’s not as much of a shock as people want it to be.

Yes i loved Hulk, thought it was good, but i can understand why others dont like it, and i dont criticise others for not liking it, which i have seen you do when defending X3 numerous times.

But you said a sharp second weekend drop was a sign of poor quality, so this then means Hulk was a poor quality movie. (Hulk also didn’t make its budget back domestically)

If you argue that it isn’t a poor quality movie (and I don’t think it was of poor quality, but it was flawed and went away from expectations, somewhat like SR), then second weekend drops are not necessarily a reflection of quality. Which I think is true.

I think X3 dropped down to a more normal level on its second weekend. Regardless, the movie still went on to make a lot more money.

I’ve never argued that X3 was the best movie ever, nor that it was some amazing and perfect artform. But it was what it was and you either enjoy it or you move on. Your obsessional ranting proves nothing. It’s not going to be unmade or remade and Fox isn’t going to turn up at your door and promise to make the X3 you personally wanted. You need to get a grip on reality. Fox had to meet that release date – sets were built, actors contracted, everything ready to move forward. Singer was an idiot for leaving, and so was Vaughn. Singer managed to make X1 and X2 with Fox and both turned out pretty well, so he could have found a way to make X3 if he really wanted.

Sony’s Ghost Rider debacle and WB’s Catwoman crapfest and the earlier Batman disasters prove that other studios can have problems with superhero movies. So you can’t just point a finger at Fox.

Writer Alan Moore has distanced himself from all movies based on his work (V for Vendetta, Watchmen, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) – he wants no association with them, not even financially. It’s not all perfect out there in movie and comicbook land. It’s plain to me that you have an incredibly limited knowledge and understanding of the real world; you think it’s all about you and what you want. Sorry to burst that bubble.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The profit depends on your source. The Numbers website puts X3's budget at $150m, Box Office Mojo puts it at $210m. Someone on here said a Reuters article put the budget at $160m. Each of those gives a different profit compared with the gross earnings of $459m. Either way, it made a profit. Not as much as X2, but then less was spent on X2. ($125m according to The Numbers, less according to Box Office Mojo)

I believe marketing was what made the movie a hit, as well as it being everywhere on that holiday weekend. Whether people you know liked it or not, I really don't care, but I saw it several times (after the advance screening) and it was packed and getting good reaction. Entire families were in there, so it was obviously a family movie that holiday weekend.

The marketing for X3 was excellent, but the simple fact remains, X3 made the money it did because of the popularity of the previous installments.

I think you are expecting far too much and taking the movie far too personally just because it wasn't the exact movie you had inside your head.

SR wasnt the exact movie i had in my head, X1 and X2, Spiderman 1 and 2, Batman Begins, and especially, biggest of all Transformers wasnt the movie i had in my head, yet i loved all of them, so your point is bull****.

Without evidence, I don't believe you over X3 being withheld. I saw it well before official release and in plenty of time for media reviews to be written about it.

Well you can believe me or you cant, it was definately withheld from critics in America, as far as i remember, you and others from England on here saw it before the Americans did.

I certainly don't want too many cliches and explosions in movies and there are those who say TF was like that, so I've said I don't want that sort of thing. But I can't specifically say for myself if TF felt like that because I didn't see it, and probably won't see it unless it becomes a cheap bargain or on TV.

X3 was like that, yet you loved it! And TF isnt just cliche's and explosions at all, in fact, in a 2hr 18 min movie, there are only about 5 action sequences, 2 of which some may not even consider major. I could point out at least 10 scene's that arent action scene's yet are loved by most of the TF fans on here. Does that sound like an action fest to you?

But the fact remains that the rating is the rating. No matter how much you try to wriggle out of it, the RT ratings are 57 per cent, the same as TF, twice that of Ghost Rider, and higher than Pirates 2 and 3. That's a fact. It cannot be argued. Whatever those reviews twitter on about should be reflected in the rating. There is negative and positive in all the reviews - but there is definitely positive. 'Enjoyable blockbuster'. 'Powerful punch'. 'Worthy enough sequel.' 'Eye-filling fantasy extravaganza'. 'Big crowd-pleaser.' All those phrases on the first page. Yes, there's negative too, and I have no problem with that, but your assertion that the reviews do not endorse the movie is clearly not a fact that remains at all.

I see you mentioned that some critics rate Ratner movies before even seeing them in an earlier post, dont you think they do that with Bay movies also? They obviously do, as for GR, that was also withheld from critics until a day before release, and many critics took exception to that rated it low anyway. BUT the movie would have had a low rating anyway probably.

I thought Mystique being cured was a great scene. In fact, I'd have made it an even stronger motivation to stop the cure; I'd have made his grief, shock and anger at Mystique being cured into a stronger driving force.

It would have been great if Ratner would have explored it more, but gotta get to that next action scene havent we Brett!

We're not talking about 'anyone'. We're talking about Wolverine compared with the rest of the X-Men. He was almost certainly the most experienced fighter, due to his past as a cage fighter and Weapon X killing machine.

Considering the movies show us nothing of his time in the weapon X program, whats to say he was a fighter for them?

You were never going to get the Phoenix Saga you were familiar with from the cartoons. We never got it in X1 or X2 either. Jean's story was a sub-plot - the main plot is always socio-political. How you react to what we saw is up to you... but Fox obviously were trying to please fans by putting in things such as Beast, Angel, Danger Room, a Sentinel, Juggernaut and Multiple Man. Fans online were wanting all those things. You are expecting far too much.

I never wanted the Pheonix saga from the cartoon, how many times have i said i didnt want the Shi'ar etc, you always go on about others people's comprehension and listening skills, maybe its time to look to your own.

Kitty's power is far more useful, she can avoid attacks by phasing; Rogue can't avoid being hurt unless she has touched someone who has useful powers. We saw all this in the DR sequence. It indicated the usefulness of the characters' powers. Kitty was able to let a missile phase through her and Bobby, Rogue had to be touched by Colossus to avoid being hurt. It's obvious Kitty is more useful in battle.

I disagree totally, whats more useful, someone who can phase through things, or someone who could take anyone out simply by touching them? In a hand-to-hand situation, which is what the pathetic final battle was, Rogue would have been very useful.

Well, you expect far too much and get far too angry about everything, but I'd always like X3 to be longer.

I have never gotten angry about a movie like i have with X3 and how is expecting a good movie too much exactly?

Superman had hardly any lines, and Routh's facial expressions were non-existent.

Then you havent watched the movie properly, in SR (and Hulk for that matter) and i can constantly tell what the character is thinking through his facial expressions, add a fair of lines on top of that and we get a character we really got to know.

I've never seen Magneto try to kill or injure Jean. Toad spat goo on her, Magneto left all the X-Men at the dam (including Xavier) but he may not have been aware the dam was about to rupture. So, no, Magneto has not tried to kill Jean four times. I don't know what the hell you are on about.

So Magneto's henchman trying to kill/injure Jean isnt Magneto? Who do think ordered Toad to attack the X-Men?

I've explained it multiple times, it's getting boring repeating myself if you are going to be pig-headed. I can't imagine what you want to happen instead of Jean/Phoenix going off with Magneto. It's the only viable option. Suggest to me something better. Instead of asking the same question, which I keep answering, suggest what should have happened. Let's look at the alternatives.

Your the pig-headed one, the only thing you do on this board is defend X3 and bash SR (though i have feeling if SR was directed by anyone else, you wouldnt be criticising it so much).

About Jean, or why not have her wondering from town to town, causing untold destruction, cursing the X-Men for protecting the 'lowly' humans, getting frustated because no one can challenge her, and threatening to destroy the planet. It would have made more sense than an almost omnipotent being going off with a guy she had been fighting against for half of her life.

Who cares!? Beast in X2 wasn't even a proper cameo, it was on a TV in a bar, and most people didn't notice it. Singer had to cut a sequence where Hank turned blue and furry at the end when Cerebro targeted mutants and made their powers go crazy. Just imagine that happened and we're fine. Simple. Otherwise, forget the TV image, it was an Easter egg for fans and nothing more. It's not worth obsessing any more than the three different actresses playing Kitty or the different Pyro in X1 or the loss of Storm's accent and change of hairstyles between X1 and X2. Nitpicking over the TV image of Hank McCoy in X2 is plainly silly. Move along. Jesus, get a life Aveit, you are in danger of disappearing up your own plothole!

Pretty hard to get a life when i'm in the pub most nights, work 5 days a week and going on 3 holidays a year, if that isnt a life i dont know what is. And again your comprehension skills seem to be lacking, i said the Beast cameo in X2 DOESNT MATTER, as, from the writers' mouth, it has no bearing on the Beast presented in X3. Again check your own comprehension skills before calling that of others.

Ratner wanted a surprise. That's all there is to it. You either like it or you don't.

Your right, thats all Ratner wanted a surprise, no religious or mythic theme as you point out.

I’m hoping he gets to direct a Superman movie just so I can see your reaction! It would be priceless. You’d probably end up having a stroke!

I would just see what direction he was going in with it, if it was one i didnt like, i simply wouldnt see it, you would probably love i though wouldnt you!

Oh come on. Now you are just being thick, or pretending to be thick. It was called Worthington Labs. I'd say Worthington Snr was heavily involved in something called Worthington Labs without much doubt. Come on, Aveit, are you really that dense?! Now i know for sure that your criticisms of X3 are all ridiculous. Thanks for proving it. Get some basic comprehension skills going on here!

Exactly Worthington LABS, not Worthington Ltd/Enterprise's/PLC, LABS, not much here to indicate him being an industriallist billionaire, as i said earlier, he could be a government funded scientest.

We are given hardly any info in SR. Singer himself speaks of vague history. The story in SR makes no sense. Mega joe and others have argued this, and even C Lee agrees that the backstory is unclear and makes Superman seem selfish and irresponsible. You know full well what the SR forums say.

Yes i do, but you know full well what the X3 forums say also, but you ignore it, i simply disagree with no backstory for SR argument.

I wasn't talking about the opening weekend, I was talking about the second weekend figures. You saw exactly what i was quoting - I listed the takings for the second weekends. The weekend after a holiday weekend is traditionally quieter because people stay home and save money or catch up with normal weekend activities, and yet X3 still managed to make more on a normally quiet second weekend (one coming after a holiday weekend) than the other movies I quoted on their second weekends. The only factor here is that there was a sharp drop from an amazing, traditionally-busy holiday weekend. And that’s not as much of a shock as people want it to be.

But all movies released in May have a good BO, 3 movies made over $800 million WW in May 07, so any movie released will make money in that month, especially with a good marketing campaing and 2 previous good movies.

But you said a sharp second weekend drop was a sign of poor quality, so this then means Hulk was a poor quality movie. (Hulk also didn’t make its budget back domestically)

If you argue that it isn’t a poor quality movie (and I don’t think it was of poor quality, but it was flawed and went away from expectations, somewhat like SR), then second weekend drops are not necessarily a reflection of quality. Which I think is true.

No i said a sharp 2nd week drop-off was an indicator of fan reaction.

I think X3 dropped down to a more normal level on its second weekend. Regardless, the movie still went on to make a lot more money.

I’ve never argued that X3 was the best movie ever, nor that it was some amazing and perfect artform. But it was what it was and you either enjoy it or you move on. Your obsessional ranting proves nothing. It’s not going to be unmade or remade and Fox isn’t going to turn up at your door and promise to make the X3 you personally wanted. You need to get a grip on reality. Fox had to meet that release date – sets were built, actors contracted, everything ready to move forward. Singer was an idiot for leaving, and so was Vaughn. Singer managed to make X1 and X2 with Fox and both turned out pretty well, so he could have found a way to make X3 if he really wanted.

Sony’s Ghost Rider debacle and WB’s Catwoman crapfest and the earlier Batman disasters prove that other studios can have problems with superhero movies. So you can’t just point a finger at Fox.

Writer Alan Moore has distanced himself from all movies based on his work (V for Vendetta, Watchmen, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) – he wants no association with them, not even financially. It’s not all perfect out there in movie and comicbook land. It’s plain to me that you have an incredibly limited knowledge and understanding of the real world; you think it’s all about you and what you want. Sorry to burst that bubble.

I'm not the one going around the boards trying to 'correct' people's opinions about a movie, or criticising every persons negative comments, which i have seen you do to others on numerous threads in the Marvel forum. Your the one who need the grip on reality sunshine, as i have told you before YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND ON X3. Or SR for that matter, so stop trying to change other people's opinion, pull your head out your ass and just accept that your beloved X3 isnt liked by everyone.

Once again YOU are the one who always quote's my posts, get it through your head i'm not gonna change because some guy tries to tell me to on a message board. I dont even know why you keep bothering responding to my posts when most of them arent even directed at you, are you obsessed with me or something?

Honestly get a grip.

 

[X-Maniac]

The marketing for X3 was excellent, but the simple fact remains, X3 made the money it did because of the popularity of the previous installments.

It’s not a ‘simple fact’ at all. Prove to me it was the only factor.

SR wasnt the exact movie i had in my head, X1 and X2, Spiderman 1 and 2, Batman Begins, and especially, biggest of all Transformers wasnt the movie i had in my head, yet i loved all of them, so your point is bull****.

You’ve become obsessed, that’s for certain. How many times have you seen SR now? More than 40 times? About four or five times as many as I’ve seen X3, the movie I am allegedly in love with! Step back and take a look at yourself. X3 was just a movie, so was SR. Singer is just a person, so is Ratner. Take a deep breath!

Well you can believe me or you cant, it was definately withheld from critics in America, as far as i remember, you and others from England on here saw it before the Americans did.

I choose not to believe you. And if it’s true, so what? I can’t say I’m bothered if they withheld it from some critics or not. What happened was what happened. And I’ve never yet experienced a movie screening being withheld. I think you’re trying to justify yourself.

X3 was like that, yet you loved it! And TF isnt just cliche's and explosions at all, in fact, in a 2hr 18 min movie, there are only about 5 action sequences, 2 of which some may not even consider major. I could point out at least 10 scene's that arent action scene's yet are loved by most of the TF fans on here. Does that sound like an action fest to you?

I’ve seen people disagree with you about TF, such as MostPowerful on the SR boards. And he was a fan of Superman Returns. So it can’t be as clear-cut as you describe. If it was such a great movie, the critics would have loved it much more. I just think you are willing to forgive its faults because you are a fond fan of Transformers and loved seeing them on the big screen. Unless/until i see TF, I cannot comment further and even then it's only my opinion.

I see you mentioned that some critics rate Ratner movies before even seeing them in an earlier post, dont you think they do that with Bay movies also? They obviously do, as for GR, that was also withheld from critics until a day before release, and many critics took exception to that rated it low anyway. BUT the movie would have had a low rating anyway probably.

Some of the critics would have preconceived ideas about a Bay movie or Ratner movie, yes. And some members of the public too, though they’d probably be more swayed by actors they liked/hated than by directors. After the Wicker Man remake and Ghost Rider, I confess I’m wary of seeing anything else with Cage in it.

But even withholding GR screenings until the day before release (if that is what they did) wouldn’t stop reviews getting on to radio, TV, internet and into daily or weekly newspapers that published the next day. Those reviews would be able to influence the movie’s first weekend.

It would have been great if Ratner would have explored it more, but gotta get to that next action scene havent we Brett!

Well, he didn’t approach Red Dragon that way, so I don’t think that’s his way of working. He made the script that was in front of him in the way the producers wanted it made. They wanted energetic action-adventure; that’s what we got. Since the pacing and editing of Red Dragon is entirely different, then I know for a fact that it isn’t his mindset to make everything in a fast-moving style. But, even so, X3 isn’t all fast-moving. It begins slowly with the Xavier/Magneto car drawing up outside Jean’s house, it has a long lingering shot of Xavier’s wheelchair back in his office at the mansion after he is killed, and there are many other slow scenes, so it doesn’t all rush past. You’re hardly in a position to remember because you don’t like it so have probably only seen it once.

Considering the movies show us nothing of his time in the weapon X program, whats to say he was a fighter for them?

He was some kind of operative. Why else would he have adamantium implants and what else would he do with metal claws? Are you suggesting he used his claws for basketweaving or embroidery? No, I thought not. Stryker speaks of Wolverine being an animal and of the terrible work they together – I hardly think that was a bit of gardening or knitting. He was a trained killer. He wouldn’t be much of a killer if he didn’t have some kind of physical combat/defence/offence skills. We see it emerging when he breaks into a berserker rage, such as during the mansion attack. We also see his combat moves against Sabretooth, Mystique and Deathstrike, though he met his match against their mutant abilities. The movies did also show us he was a cage fighter. And the forthcoming Wolverine movie will show us his Weapon X days.

For you to say he wasn’t an experienced and/or trained fighter is astonishing. And very wrong.

I never wanted the Pheonix saga from the cartoon, how many times have i said i didnt want the Shi'ar etc

Then what did you want?

I disagree totally, whats more useful, someone who can phase through things, or someone who could take anyone out simply by touching them? In a hand-to-hand situation, which is what the pathetic final battle was, Rogue would have been very useful.

Rogue’s power relies on touching people’s flesh for enough time to take their lifeforce or their powers. From a distance she can be taken out. Kitty can phase through a distance attack. Kitty has the advantage. Unless Rogue can touch someone’s flesh, she’s vulnerable. What if they have no exposed flesh, if they are in head-to-foot armour? Even if she can grab them she can’t then take their lifeforce. She is clearly vulnerable.

I have never gotten angry about a movie like i have with X3 and how is expecting a good movie too much exactly?

You didn’t used to be this angry and negatively obsessed about it. Something changed.

Then you havent watched the movie properly, in SR (and Hulk for that matter) and i can constantly tell what the character is thinking through his facial expressions, add a fair of lines on top of that and we get a character we really got to know.

And yet you can’t tell what characters are going through in X3!

So Magneto's henchman trying to kill/injure Jean isnt Magneto? Who do think ordered Toad to attack the X-Men?

I mentioned the Toad attack myself and that is just once. Where are the situations where Magneto tried to kill Jean ‘at least four times’?

Your the pig-headed one, the only thing you do on this board is defend X3 and bash SR (though i have feeling if SR was directed by anyone else, you wouldnt be criticising it so much).

I had high hopes for SR. I was disappointed. If SR was directed by anyone else, you wouldn’t be worshipping it so much.

About Jean, or why not have her wondering from town to town, causing untold destruction, cursing the X-Men for protecting the 'lowly' humans, getting frustated because no one can challenge her, and threatening to destroy the planet. It would have made more sense than an almost omnipotent being going off with a guy she had been fighting against for half of her life.

So you want Jean just wandering from town to town, blowing **** up for the sake of it? I think that might have made a messy thread to the movie which would then need to be tied in to Magneto and the cure and the march on Alcatraz. Ultimately, she’d have had to have gone to join Magneto at Alcatraz in order to bring the story to a coherent climax where all sides met. So it’s not that much different to what we got.

Phoenix hadn’t been fighting Magneto ‘half her life’ - that was Jean and it wasn’t half her life, it was only a few years since Magneto emerged as a threat in X1 (and we don’t know if he’d been a threat before then, the movie doesn’t tell us what Magneto had been up to). Phoenix had been locked away all that time. Phoenix felt an affinity with Magneto. He wanted freedom and to do what the hell he liked, so did she. She didn’t want to be fixed, cured or controlled; neither did he. So they formed an uneasy alliance. After she killed Xavier, there was no going back.

I said the Beast cameo in X2 DOESNT MATTER, as, from the writers' mouth, it has no bearing on the Beast presented in X3.

I agree. It would have been nice to tie it in somehow, but it didn’t matter.

Your right, thats all Ratner wanted a surprise, no religious or mythic theme as you point out.

True, but the sudden appearance of Angel does sound like stories in myth and religion when an angel suddenly appears.

I would just see what direction he was going in with it, if it was one i didnt like, i simply wouldnt see it, you would probably love i though wouldnt you!

I was teasing you – because you take it all so seriously and obsessively.

Exactly Worthington LABS, not Worthington Ltd/Enterprise's/PLC, LABS, not much here to indicate him being an industriallist billionaire, as i said earlier, he could be a government funded scientest.

Who knows for sure. But I got the sense of Worthington Snr being a wealthy industrialist who was able to fund all that cure research. Plus, the comics tell us Warren became heir and chief executive of the multi-billion dollar Worthington Industries and this is the basis for what’s in the movie, so I feel sure that was the intended background.

I simply disagree with no backstory for SR argument.

I know and I agree to disagree.

But all movies released in May have a good BO, 3 movies made over $800 million WW in May 07, so any movie released will make money in that month, especially with a good marketing campaing and 2 previous good movies.

Then Fox chose wisely and there was even more reason to hold on to that release date. They picked the date before the production troubles, so they didn’t pick the date because they knew it would help compensate for the troubled production of the movie, they picked it because it’s a good date to pick.

We’re never going to agree but we’ll see what Fox does with Wolverine. But Jumper still stuck to the 90-minute formula.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It’s not a ‘simple fact’ at all. Prove to me it was the only factor.

I didnt say it was the only factor, i have already said the marketing campaing was superb.

You’ve become obsessed, that’s for certain. How many times have you seen SR now? More than 40 times? About four or five times as many as I’ve seen X3, the movie I am allegedly in love with! Step back and take a look at yourself. X3 was just a movie, so was SR. Singer is just a person, so is Ratner. Take a deep breath!

Yeah, i have watched Hulk, X2, and Spiderman 2 more times than SR, I have watched The Terminator, Aliens and T2 all over 100 times in my lifetime, i have watched The Crow roughly 80's times also, as well as the first Die Hard movie and the original Star Wars trilogy i have lost count on. There are more movies i could name, but i think i have already proved your point bull**** by now anyway.

I choose not to believe you. And if it’s true, so what? I can’t say I’m bothered if they withheld it from some critics or not. What happened was what happened. And I’ve never yet experienced a movie screening being withheld. I think you’re trying to justify yourself.

There is no set way to justify an opinion, so i'm not trying to justify myself at all.

I’ve seen people disagree with you about TF, such as MostPowerful on the SR boards. And he was a fan of Superman Returns. So it can’t be as clear-cut as you describe. If it was such a great movie, the critics would have loved it much more. I just think you are willing to forgive its faults because you are a fond fan of Transformers and loved seeing them on the big screen. Unless/until i see TF, I cannot comment further and even then it's only my opinion.

Does it matter if someone who liked SR didnt like TF, what was the point of providing that little tidbit exactly, just because someone else likes SR doesnt mean they are going to like every movie i do.

And you are wrong about TF, i like it PRIMARILY because its a good movie, the nostalgia just adds to my enjoyment.

Some of the critics would have preconceived ideas about a Bay movie or Ratner movie, yes. And some members of the public too, though they’d probably be more swayed by actors they liked/hated than by directors. After the Wicker Man remake and Ghost Rider, I confess I’m wary of seeing anything else with Cage in it.

Erm, okay.

But even withholding GR screenings until the day before release (if that is what they did) wouldn’t stop reviews getting on to radio, TV, internet and into daily or weekly newspapers that published the next day. Those reviews would be able to influence the movie’s first weekend.

If the GR was withheld until the day before release, i doubt newspapers, T.V or radio would be able to get their review to the masses. Whether that is a contributing factor to GR's record breaking opening weekend or not is up for debate.

Well, he didn’t approach Red Dragon that way, so I don’t think that’s his way of working. He made the script that was in front of him in the way the producers wanted it made. They wanted energetic action-adventure; that’s what we got. Since the pacing and editing of Red Dragon is entirely different, then I know for a fact that it isn’t his mindset to make everything in a fast-moving style. But, even so, X3 isn’t all fast-moving. It begins slowly with the Xavier/Magneto car drawing up outside Jean’s house, it has a long lingering shot of Xavier’s wheelchair back in his office at the mansion after he is killed, and there are many other slow scenes, so it doesn’t all rush past. You’re hardly in a position to remember because you don’t like it so have probably only seen it once.

You have GOT to be kidding, long/lingering shot of the chair, it last about 10 seconds, MAXIMUM.

He was some kind of operative. Why else would he have adamantium implants and what else would he do with metal claws? Are you suggesting he used his claws for basketweaving or embroidery? No, I thought not. Stryker speaks of Wolverine being an animal and of the terrible work they together – I hardly think that was a bit of gardening or knitting. He was a trained killer. He wouldn’t be much of a killer if he didn’t have some kind of physical combat/defence/offence skills. We see it emerging when he breaks into a berserker rage, such as during the mansion attack. We also see his combat moves against Sabretooth, Mystique and Deathstrike, though he met his match against their mutant abilities. The movies did also show us he was a cage fighter. And the forthcoming Wolverine movie will show us his Weapon X days.

Judging by X2, Wolverine escaped from Weapon X as soon as the adamantium was grafted onto his skin, so he wasnt an operative after the experiment, unless Wolverine tells us more.

For you to say he wasn’t an experienced and/or trained fighter is astonishing. And very wrong.

So because we saw him fighting in a bar proves he was an experienced/trained fighter? OK, i guess the ********s who go into town every Thrusday, Friday and Saturday just to get drunk and fight are experience fighters as well then.

Then what did you want?

Thought you didnt care about what other people think?

Rogue’s power relies on touching people’s flesh for enough time to take their lifeforce or their powers. From a distance she can be taken out. Kitty can phase through a distance attack. Kitty has the advantage. Unless Rogue can touch someone’s flesh, she’s vulnerable. What if they have no exposed flesh, if they are in head-to-foot armour? Even if she can grab them she can’t then take their lifeforce. She is clearly vulnerable.

In the battle, plenty of mutants just RAN at the X-Men, if they did that to Rogue, she would just touch them and they would be out. Or if they would have used a bit more imagination, they could have had Angel flying her around absorbing other mutants powers until she got enough to defend herself.

You didn’t used to be this angry and negatively obsessed about it. Something changed.

I watched the movie again!

And yet you can’t tell what characters are going through in X3!

Only Jean really, and only in the scene's, or 'scene' they allowed her to act in, i thought the other performances were terrible. I think its McKellan's worst performance that i have ever seen him give.

I mentioned the Toad attack myself and that is just once. Where are the situations where Magneto tried to kill Jean ‘at least four times’?

Well there was leaving her at the damn with the others (you say he didnt know, but if he can detect metal, if could detect it coming apart or failing IMO). Him making her face Scott with no glasses on, all it took was for Scott to get an itch and he could have blown her away, not to mention Magneto has tried to kill her friends a couple of times also, altogether, he is probably the last person she would have gone with in reality.

I had high hopes for SR. I was disappointed. If SR was directed by anyone else, you wouldn’t be worshipping it so much.

Not true at all, if i liked Singer so much, how come i havent seen all of his movies? I like SR because because i think it is a brilliant movie.

So you want Jean just wandering from town to town, blowing **** up for the sake of it? I think that might have made a messy thread to the movie which would then need to be tied in to Magneto and the cure and the march on Alcatraz. Ultimately, she’d have had to have gone to join Magneto at Alcatraz in order to bring the story to a coherent climax where all sides met. So it’s not that much different to what we got.

She could have easily come to Alcatraz to observe the events, laughing at the toils of pathetic humans, then she somehow gets involved. But in all honesty, i dont think Magneto needed to be in the story, i think it would have been awesome to show Jean killing Magneto along with Xavier.

Phoenix hadn’t been fighting Magneto ‘half her life’ - that was Jean and it wasn’t half her life, it was only a few years since Magneto emerged as a threat in X1 (and we don’t know if he’d been a threat before then, the movie doesn’t tell us what Magneto had been up to). Phoenix had been locked away all that time. Phoenix felt an affinity with Magneto. He wanted freedom and to do what the hell he liked, so did she. She didn’t want to be fixed, cured or controlled; neither did he. So they formed an uneasy alliance. After she killed Xavier, there was no going back.

Were does it state in X1 that Magneto had only been a threat for a few years please? NEVER is the answer. Xavier states when he met Magneto he they were both young men, but, believing humanity would never accept mutants, grew angry and vengeful, i dont think it took him 30-40 years to grow angry and vengeful do you?

I agree. It would have been nice to tie it in somehow, but it didn’t matter.

No it didnt matter, so as i said from the start, its a moot point.

True, but the sudden appearance of Angel does sound like stories in myth and religion when an angel suddenly appears.

Or its just a dumb plot-hole, my theory is the more likely from Ratner.

I was teasing you – because you take it all so seriously and obsessively.

And i gave you an honest answer, and i am not obsessive about it at all, i am on HERE, but when i go the pub, or play football, or go to my mates, or go on holiday, i dont give this place a 2nd thought, even on the rare occasions i talk about movies with my friends.

Another wrong assumption on your part.

Who knows for sure. But I got the sense of Worthington Snr being a wealthy industrialist who was able to fund all that cure research. Plus, the comics tell us Warren became heir and chief executive of the multi-billion dollar Worthington Industries and this is the basis for what’s in the movie, so I feel sure that was the intended background.

Well thats the point, its another thing the movie didnt touch on, he could have easily been a scientist rather than a billionnaire industrialist. It would have been nice to know WHY he was so detested at the thought of his son being a mutant.

I know and I agree to disagree.

Fair enough, then why keep bringing it up?

Then Fox chose wisely and there was even more reason to hold on to that release date. They picked the date before the production troubles, so they didn’t pick the date because they knew it would help compensate for the troubled production of the movie, they picked it because it’s a good date to pick.

We’re never going to agree but we’ll see what Fox does with Wolverine. But Jumper still stuck to the 90-minute formula.

The Wolverine is likely too also, Wolverine is slowly shaping up to be another X3 with the amount of ridiculous and needless character they are adding, i mena 'Beak?' Come on.

Thought you'd like to read some of the comments posted about X3 in regards to this news also, enjoy t: :

http://www.superherohype.com/news/topnews.php?id=6830

 

[X-Maniac]

I didnt say it was the only factor, i have already said the marketing campaign was superb.

I think marketing played a massive part. Yes, a lot of people would recall the previous two movies (but not everyone). But the marketing was great - the trailers were superb. And the movie was packed with big stars, many doing promotional interviews etc.

Yeah, i have watched Hulk, X2, and Spiderman 2 more times than SR, I have watched The Terminator, Aliens and T2 all over 100 times in my lifetime, i have watched The Crow roughly 80 times also, as well as the first Die Hard movie and the original Star Wars trilogy i have lost count on. There are more movies i could name, but i think i have already proved your point bull**** by now anyway.

Don’t know where you find the time if you are at work and then in the pub every night! It does sound a little excessive… but each to their own. Maybe you should watch X3 a few more times and try to understand what it is showing you, rather than getting annoyed at what you wanted to see.

Does it matter if someone who liked SR didnt like TF, what was the point of providing that little tidbit exactly, just because someone else likes SR doesnt mean they are going to like every movie i do.

I provided it because someone who shares your views on SR does not share them at all on TF. That person didn’t see any substance and depth and character development in TF. It was an interesting contrast.

And you are wrong about TF, i like it PRIMARILY because its a good movie, the nostalgia just adds to my enjoyment.

It’s only your opinion it’s a good movie. Not everyone shares that. And the critical rating doesn’t seem to imply Oscar-worthy top quality.

If the GR was withheld until the day before release, i doubt newspapers, T.V or radio would be able to get their review to the masses. Whether that is a contributing factor to GR's record breaking opening weekend or not is up for debate.

Radio stations broadcast 24/7 and so does TV. Their review could be on air the same day as they saw the screening. I know from actual past experience that a weekly newspaper publishing on Friday would have time to get in a review of a movie seen the day before, and the same with an evening newspaper or daily newspaper. You could see a screening of a movie on a Thursday daytime and the review would easily be published the next day in a Friday edition of a weekly/daily/evening paper. Most papers carry their leisure guides in Friday editions so readers know what’s on at the weekend. Most films start their public screenings on a Friday. So withholding until the day before release might stop a long build-up of negativity but it won’t stop reviews being published in time. If I’d seen GR on a Thursday, I’d have had time to get a big review in a Friday paper saying it was crap and urging people to avoid it!

You have GOT to be kidding, long/lingering shot of the chair, it last about 10 seconds, MAXIMUM.

I think ten seconds is a long lingering shot when it is a chair. Any longer would be ridiculous!

Judging by X2, Wolverine escaped from Weapon X as soon as the adamantium was grafted onto his skin, so he wasnt an operative after the experiment, unless Wolverine tells us more.

But he WAS an operative, that’s the point. ‘The work we did together’ is what Stryker says.

So because we saw him fighting in a bar proves he was an experienced/trained fighter? OK, i guess the ********s who go into town every Thrusday, Friday and Saturday just to get drunk and fight are experience fighters as well then.

I said experienced AND/OR trained. Even if he were not trained, he would be experienced by the time he’d finished that cage fighting and come to the X-Men. We don’t know if he was trained with Weapon X, but it’s highly likely that an operative/agent gets training.

I can’t quite see what you are arguing. It’s clear he has had combat experience.

Thought you didnt care about what other people think?

Intelligent ideas and discussions that enrich the movie experience are always welcome, though they are rare on here. I am constantly underwhelmed and disappointed by the lack of imagination and intelligence on this site. It’s a great shame.

In the battle, plenty of mutants just RAN at the X-Men, if they did that to Rogue, she would just touch them and they would be out. Or if they would have used a bit more imagination, they could have had Angel flying her around absorbing other mutants powers until she got enough to defend herself.

I don’t think it was lack of imagination that prevented Angel being in that battle. Since he was in the battle in the storyboards we have seen, something changed since then (budget? time?). I didn’t mind Angel not flying around – he was a rookie, not a trained X-Men member. He could easily be injured or killed by some of the Brotherhood mutants who could leap, glide or teleport to reach him. I don’t think having him fly round dangling Rogue on to other mutants would work in practice. She’d have to be hanging upside down like a bat to grab them – and for long enough to take them out. I don’t think it’s as simple as you suggest. Maybe another battle scene in another X-movie will involve Rogue and Angel more.

I watched the movie again!

Well, if it gets you this near to a heart attack, you’d better stop.

Only Jean really, and only in the scene's, or 'scene' they allowed her to act in, i thought the other performances were terrible. I think its McKellan's worst performance that i have ever seen him give.

McKellen has his good and bad moments, like all actors. Where did you think he was so bad in X3?

Well there was leaving her at the dam with the others (you say he didnt know, but if he can detect metal, if could detect it coming apart or failing IMO). Him making her face Scott with no glasses on, all it took was for Scott to get an itch and he could have blown her away, not to mention Magneto has tried to kill her friends a couple of times also, altogether, he is probably the last person she would have gone with in reality.

We really don’t know if he sensed the dam would burst, it’s not made clear. He’d left by the time it was falling apart, in fact I think he’d left by the time the energy burst from the Scott/Jean fight had cracked the structure. And he was not trying to kill Jean when he strapped them up with metal in the statue – it was to immobilise them all and stop them trying to get in his way.

Phoenix was locked away all the time during X1 and X2, with resentment building up against Xavier. Such a dark persona would find more in common with Magneto’s cause (freedom, evolutionary supremacy) than with the X-Men. I think that’s quite clear in the movie. She knew she was the next advancement in evolution, which Magneto reminds her about. And this ties in with his own beliefs about mutants being the future and humans no longer mattering. They have a lot in common and it makes sense that they end up together in an uneasy alliance. His mistake is that he hopes that now her ties and restraints have been removed, she will be fully on his side.

She could have easily come to Alcatraz to observe the events, laughing at the toils of pathetic humans, then she somehow gets involved. But in all honesty, i dont think Magneto needed to be in the story, i think it would have been awesome to show Jean killing Magneto along with Xavier.

However, she DID come to Alcatraz and she DID observe the events there – that was the standing around that many didn’t like. And she DID somehow get involved, as soon as the army shot dozens of cure darts as they came over the ridge.

I don’t think Phoenix killing Magneto along with Xavier would work. It was Xavier who put the mental blocks in and who wanted to fix her by reinstating the blocks. That’s who she had resentment for. Phoenix had no score to settle against Magneto. In fact, Phoenix would be grateful that his machine in X1 started to break down the blocks. Why would she kill Magneto?

Were does it state in X1 that Magneto had only been a threat for a few years please? NEVER is the answer. Xavier states when he met Magneto he they were both young men, but, believing humanity would never accept mutants, grew angry and vengeful, i dont think it took him 30-40 years to grow angry and vengeful do you?

But we don’t know what he was doing in those ’30-40 years.’ Singer never told us if he was a major public threat. Anger and vengefulness does not mean he was out there committing big terrorist acts and atrocities. He may simply have been finding allies, creating various bases and lairs across the globe, perhaps hunting down Nazis from his Auschwitz days, perhaps committing minor crimes such as stealing materials for his mutation machine and his island lair. There is simply not enough information in X1 and X2 (more vague history from Singer, I wish he’d give us more bloody information!).

Well thats the point, its another thing the movie didnt touch on, he could have easily been a scientist rather than a billionnaire industrialist. It would have been nice to know WHY he so detested the thought of his son being a mutant.

The movies made clear that fear, hatred, misunderstanding, bigotry and discrimination exist against mutants, as it does in the real world against gays or other minorities. I don’t think specific reasons were needed. Specific reasons don’t exist for homophobia in the real world – people just have irrational prejudices created by misunderstanding and fear. Iceman’s family in X2 didn’t state specific reasons, they simply didn’t like his being a mutant because of the climate of fear, hatred, misunderstanding, bigotry and discrimination. Worthington Snr does say ‘it’s a better life’ and this obviously means Warren would avoid all the hate, fear, misunderstanding, bigotry and discrimination if he was to give up his mutation.

The Wolverine is likely too also, Wolverine is slowly shaping up to be another X3 with the amount of ridiculous and needless character they are adding, i mena 'Beak?' Come on.

Thought you'd like to read some of the comments posted about X3 in regards to this news also, enjoy

In fairness Beak was mentioned way back in the early Benioff draft as a circus mutant who Sabretooth killed – the same draft mentioned Barbarus, the four-armed Savage Land mutate. So I was always prepared for cameo roles. I think they are necessary. All movies need a minimum number of characters to fill the required key character archetypes. Wolverine, Sabretooth, Stryker and Silver Fox is not enough for narrative storytelling structures. So I would expect more and I would also anticipate some minor roles too to give texture to the world being created.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I think marketing played a massive part. Yes, a lot of people would recall the previous two movies (but not everyone). But the marketing was great - the trailers were superb. And the movie was packed with big stars, many doing promotional interviews etc.

All of this played a part, but, you undersetimate the populairyt of the first 2 movies. All people i know, didnt see trailers, etc, and that into films that they care about the stars, etc, they just looking forward to the movie simply based on them enjoying the first 2 movies. I know this doesnt speak for everyone in the world, but its a good indicator of how the GA thinks IMO.

Don’t know where you find the time if you are at work and then in the pub every night! It does sound a little excessive… but each to their own. Maybe you should watch X3 a few more times and try to understand what it is showing you, rather than getting annoyed at what you wanted to see.

I come home from work, watch a dvd then go the pub, its not that hard when you think about it.

And i've watched X3 about 8 times, each time trying to find something i like in it, but the more i watch it, the more i hate it.

I provided it because someone who shares your views on SR does not share them at all on TF. That person didn’t see any substance and depth and character development in TF. It was an interesting contrast.

But again, it show anything. Nell2TheIzzy thought SR was amazing, and he likes X3, i even remember him saying SR was the movie that proved to him Singer is a master director. What does this mean? Nothing, so its not relevant really.

It’s only your opinion it’s a good movie. Not everyone shares that. And the critical rating doesn’t seem to imply Oscar-worthy top quality.

This thread shows that its not just me who thinks TF is a good movie, its currently coming 6th in the best ever ratings, one ahead of SR.

Radio stations broadcast 24/7 and so does TV. Their review could be on air the same day as they saw the screening. I know from actual past experience that a weekly newspaper publishing on Friday would have time to get in a review of a movie seen the day before, and the same with an evening newspaper or daily newspaper. You could see a screening of a movie on a Thursday daytime and the review would easily be published the next day in a Friday edition of a weekly/daily/evening paper. Most papers carry their leisure guides in Friday editions so readers know what’s on at the weekend. Most films start their public screenings on a Friday. So withholding until the day before release might stop a long build-up of negativity but it won’t stop reviews being published in time. If I’d seen GR on a Thursday, I’d have had time to get a big review in a Friday paper saying it was crap and urging people to avoid it!

But, other than the special screening Superhero Hype got, there wasnt another review of GR until the Saturday, a day after release, so evidently T.V 's and Radio's didnt get their reviews out in time.

I think ten seconds is a long lingering shot when it is a chair. Any longer would be ridiculous!

It wasnt even ten seconds, i watched it again (that scene only!) and it was about 5, not long and lingering in the slightest.

But he WAS an operative, that’s the point. ‘The work we did together’ is what Stryker says.

Again, you're going off the comics, yes they worked together, but Wolverine could have been a scientist, Styker cvlearly said he volunteered for the procedure, why would an operative do that?

I said experienced AND/OR trained. Even if he were not trained, he would be experienced by the time he’d finished that cage fighting and come to the X-Men. We don’t know if he was trained with Weapon X, but it’s highly likely that an operative/agent gets training.

Sorry, but i dont consider fighting in a bar as experienced.

I can’t quite see what you are arguing. It’s clear he has had combat experience.

When he is getting is arse kicked all the time!

Intelligent ideas and discussions that enrich the movie experience are always welcome, though they are rare on here. I am constantly underwhelmed and disappointed by the lack of imagination and intelligence on this site. It’s a great shame.

Yet you arent underwhelmed by the lack of imagination or intellegence in X, and these guys GET PAID to make movies. I have come up with better ideas in the past, some you have liked, some you have typically dismissed.

I don’t think it was lack of imagination that prevented Angel being in that battle. Since he was in the battle in the storyboards we have seen, something changed since then (budget? time?). I didn’t mind Angel not flying around – he was a rookie, not a trained X-Men member. He could easily be injured or killed by some of the Brotherhood mutants who could leap, glide or teleport to reach him. I don’t think having him fly round dangling Rogue on to other mutants would work in practice. She’d have to be hanging upside down like a bat to grab them – and for long enough to take them out. I don’t think it’s as simple as you suggest. Maybe another battle scene in another X-movie will involve Rogue and Angel more.

It is simple though, they could have even had Collosus or Beast throwing Rogue at people, and she has been training in the Danger Room for how long? She would have learned some basic defensive skills in there. Not that she needed them against some of the terrible and useless mutants they had in the final battle.

Well, if it gets you this near to a heart attack, you’d better stop.

I wouldnt have a heart attack about a movie, never, you fail to realise i hate X3 through passion.

McKellen has his good and bad moments, like all actors. Where did you think he was so bad in X3?

Well i thought he was superb in the LOTR Trilogy (the guy should have gotten an oscar) and in X1, and especially X2 i thought he was great. Butg some of his line delivery in X3 was plain bad "Plastic, they've learned!" immediatly comes to mind as do his facial expressions in the prison convoy scene, and it doesnt help they made Magneto a dozy idiot in the movie either.

But it wasnt just him, i also thought Stewart and Jackman gave their worst performances of the series also. To be honest, the only performances i liked were from Grammar and Stanford, and the kid who played young Angel sold his scene completely also IMO. Janssen was good when allowed to be.

We really don’t know if he sensed the dam would burst, it’s not made clear. He’d left by the time it was falling apart, in fact I think he’d left by the time the energy burst from the Scott/Jean fight had cracked the structure. And he was not trying to kill Jean when he strapped them up with metal in the statue – it was to immobilise them all and stop them trying to get in his way.

He didnt leave before the energy burst from the Scott/Jean fight cracked the dam, we see them on the floor in torture together when Magneto is stopping Cerebro, then when he does, we see Scott helping Jean up.

Phoenix was locked away all the time during X1 and X2, with resentment building up against Xavier. Such a dark persona would find more in common with Magneto’s cause (freedom, evolutionary supremacy) than with the X-Men. I think that’s quite clear in the movie. She knew she was the next advancement in evolution, which Magneto reminds her about. And this ties in with his own beliefs about mutants being the future and humans no longer mattering. They have a lot in common and it makes sense that they end up together in an uneasy alliance. His mistake is that he hopes that now her ties and restraints have been removed, she will be fully on his side.

Why didnt she have resentment towards some of the others then, Magneto also probably had a part to play in her development at a young age, he knew what Xavier was doing, why didnt Jean resent him? Plus she is psychic, she must have known Magneto was only using her. He should have been insignificant to her, not an ally, another bad decision.

However, she DID come to Alcatraz and she DID observe the events there – that was the standing around that many didn’t like. And she DID somehow get involved, as soon as the army shot dozens of cure darts as they came over the ridge.

But in my version, she would have had emotion and facial expression while watching the battle, i would have loved a scene of Jean trying to walk away but the Pheonix telepathically drags her back to the battle. Would have shown the conflict much more than her just standing around

I don’t think Phoenix killing Magneto along with Xavier would work. It was Xavier who put the mental blocks in and who wanted to fix her by reinstating the blocks. That’s who she had resentment for. Phoenix had no score to settle against Magneto. In fact, Phoenix would be grateful that his machine in X1 started to break down the blocks. Why would she kill Magneto?

See my response above.

But we don’t know what he was doing in those ’30-40 years.’ Singer never told us if he was a major public threat. Anger and vengefulness does not mean he was out there committing big terrorist acts and atrocities. He may simply have been finding allies, creating various bases and lairs across the globe, perhaps hunting down Nazis from his Auschwitz days, perhaps committing minor crimes such as stealing materials for his mutation machine and his island lair. There is simply not enough information in X1 and X2 (more vague history from Singer, I wish he’d give us more bloody information!).

He was obviously building up as a threat, Xavier talks quite a bit about protecting humanity from him to Wolverine.

The movies made clear that fear, hatred, misunderstanding, bigotry and discrimination exist against mutants, as it does in the real world against gays or other minorities. I don’t think specific reasons were needed. Specific reasons don’t exist for homophobia in the real world – people just have irrational prejudices created by misunderstanding and fear. Iceman’s family in X2 didn’t state specific reasons, they simply didn’t like his being a mutant because of the climate of fear, hatred, misunderstanding, bigotry and discrimination. Worthington Snr does say ‘it’s a better life’ and this obviously means Warren would avoid all the hate, fear, misunderstanding, bigotry and discrimination if he was to give up his mutation.

Iceman's family gave some reasons, they were obviously prejudice against mutants, considering they couldnt even say the word in relation to Bobby, and called it "The Mutant Problem!" Not to mention the "Have you tried.....NOT being a mutant!" comment, its a lot more than we got from Worthington Senior.

In fairness Beak was mentioned way back in the early Benioff draft as a circus mutant who Sabretooth killed – the same draft mentioned Barbarus, the four-armed Savage Land mutate. So I was always prepared for cameo roles. I think they are necessary. All movies need a minimum number of characters to fill the required key character archetypes. Wolverine, Sabretooth, Stryker and Silver Fox is not enough for narrative storytelling structures. So I would expect more and I would also anticipate some minor roles too to give texture to the world being created.

I dont mind the odd cameo, but X3 had like FIFTY, Even Angel and Kitty could be looked at as glamorised cameo's, there is point they shouldnt go beyond.

Example, Orci and Kurtzman's early TF drafts had a very small part which could have been considered a cameo for a very popular Decepticon, Soundwave, but they thought it would be a great injustice to the character, and so left him completely for the sequel.

I believe X3 did this with Gambit, but they made up for it with all the other crappy cameo's, i mean, can anyone honestly say they were happy to see Quills?

 

[Comics N' Toons]

X3 & ghostrider all the way

 

[The Man of Steel]

Ghost Rider is my favorite of those

 

[X-Maniac]

All of this played a part, but, you undersetimate the populairyt of the first 2 movies. All people i know, didnt see trailers, etc, and that into films that they care about the stars, etc, they just looking forward to the movie simply based on them enjoying the first 2 movies. I know this doesnt speak for everyone in the world, but its a good indicator of how the GA thinks IMO.

I really think you are overestimating the pulling power of the name X-Men. They aren't as iconic as Spider-Man or Star Wars. The profile and earnings of the first movie tell us this. But, we have no real way of knowing exactly how the audience made up their mind to see the movie - it was obviously a combination of marketing (trailers, interviews, TV adverts, internet information, newspaper 'what's on' cinema guides, film magazine articles and covers), popularity of previous movies, built-in comicbook fanbase (comicbook fans who would be guaranteed to go in any event), built-in cartoon fanbase, the number of star actors, and probably other factors that escape my mind right now. All we are doing is arguing about the proportions of those factors and, in all honesty, we don't know the correct answer. You believe the previous movies played a greater part than I do. I agree they played a part but I believe marketing and the escalating hype for the movie was the main factor.

I come home from work, watch a dvd then go the pub, its not that hard when you think about it.

And i've watched X3 about 8 times, each time trying to find something i like in it, but the more i watch it, the more i hate it.

Well, it's a shame you can't find something you like. Time to move on from it then.

But again, it show anything. Nell2TheIzzy thought SR was amazing, and he likes X3, i even remember him saying SR was the movie that proved to him Singer is a master director. What does this mean? Nothing, so its not relevant really.

I don't recall Nell's response to SR. I'd be interesting hearing more about what he thought - he debates well.

All we are 'proving' here is that some people liked X3, some people didn't, and some of those people who liked X3 enjoyed other movies that the X3 fans hated and disliked movies that the X3 fans loved, and so on. Mostpowerful liked SR but not TF, Nell liked X3 and (according to you) loved SR, and I know a guy at work who loves X3, SR and SM3. Different strokes for different folks. You can't 'prove' X3 was terrible, you can only tell me how much you dislike it, which you have done.

This thread shows that its not just me who thinks TF is a good movie, its currently coming 6th in the best ever ratings, one ahead of SR.

You mean in the Best Superhero movie thread? Well, great, I've no problems with fans' votes on this site. I can't comment if TF was truer to the source material (comics, cartoons) as I know nothing about the source. But X3 is prone to be disliked by fanboys on here because of some of its controversial decisions (Cyclops, Rogue etc) and the studio was always treading a dangerous line when it demanded those things. I remember being stunned and annoyed when Joker was killed off in Batman 1989 and when Penguin was killed off in Batman Returns, and also when Goblin and Doc Ock were killed off in the Spider-Man movies. That may be slightly different because they are villains but nonetheless they were things that shocked me. I've since become acclimatised to such changes being made. But I would have preferred X3 to have taken a different path in places and given more time to Angel, Phoenix, Rogue and Cyclops; the difference between me and the angry fanboys is that I am not screaming hysterically about it two years later.

But, other than the special screening Superhero Hype got, there wasnt another review of GR until the Saturday, a day after release, so evidently T.V 's and Radio's didnt get their reviews out in time.

Right, but I don't think Ghost Rider was ever a 'big release' that was on the radar for most critics. If this is indeed true, I'm surprised review screenings were held off - after all, the studio delayed the release by months for extra time to be spent polishing the movie to get it right. And, of course, this is Sony not Fox, so it doesn't advance your argument against Fox.

It wasnt even ten seconds, i watched it again (that scene only!) and it was about 5, not long and lingering in the slightest.

Still, five seconds is plenty for a shot of an empty chair!

Again, you're going off the comics, yes they worked together, but Wolverine could have been a scientist, Styker cvlearly said he volunteered for the procedure, why would an operative do that?

Well, if you want to believe that X2 was trying to tell us Wolverine was a scientist, that sounds like a criticism of X2's vagueness and storytelling, and nothing to do with X3.

I'm sure the Wolverine movie will show what Logan was up to. And i'm sure it won't be showing us Wolverine in a lab coat, fiddling about with test tubes and Bunsen burners.

Sorry, but i dont consider fighting in a bar as experienced.

Experience is achieved by repeated performances of an action or activity. X1 implies Wolverine had been a cage fighter for more than one fight and had gained a reputation. In order to gain such a reputation as a successful or brutal fighter, he must have had some skill and had gained experience too.

If you are criticising the fact that the movies did not show the sort of skilled fighting techniques he has in the comics, then that is a criticism of X1 and X2 as well as X3 as he has the same sort of 'rough fighting' in all three movies.

When he is getting is arse kicked all the time!

He got his arse kicked in X1 (Mystique, Sabretooth) and in X2 (Deathstrike) because they were mutants with advanced strength or agility or healing. In X3 he got his arse kicked by Juggernaut but not by Spyke, so he had somewhat more success against mutants by the time of the third movie.

If you are criticising the fact he got his arse kicked in X1 and X2, then that is a criticism of X1 and X2 and is nothing to do with your dislike of X3.

Yet you arent underwhelmed by the lack of imagination or intellegence in X3, and these guys GET PAID to make movies. I have come up with better ideas in the past, some you have liked, some you have typically dismissed.

I haven't 'typically' dismissed everything - i've tried to analyse your suggestions and imagine them in a movie setting. Some sound okay, some don't.

I think X3 definitely had imagination and intelligence, but it fell down in some areas of the execution of ideas and in its risky and shocking character decisions (which upset fanboys but, on the other hand, are brave for showing consequences to actions rather than pure fantasy where there are never lasting or tragic consequences.). It can be argued either way - you wanted Phoenix still alive at the end, and yet the comicbook lore doesn't do that.

It is simple though, they could have even had Collosus or Beast throwing Rogue at people, and she has been training in the Danger Room for how long? She would have learned some basic defensive skills in there. Not that she needed them against some of the terrible and useless mutants they had in the final battle.

We don't how long Rogue has been training in the Danger Room. But the DR sequence clearly showed us she wasn't much use without being able to absorb the powers of someone else. While i would have liked to see her do more, I can understand to some extent what happened in the movie. I still want to see what happened to the character and have even plotted and partly written an X4 in which she gets a stronger presence.

Well i thought he was superb in the LOTR Trilogy (the guy should have gotten an oscar) and in X1, and especially X2 i thought he was great. But some of his line delivery in X3 was plain bad "Plastic, they've learned!" immediatly comes to mind as do his facial expressions in the prison convoy scene, and it doesnt help they made Magneto a dozy idiot in the movie either.

But it wasnt just him, i also thought Stewart and Jackman gave their worst performances of the series also. To be honest, the only performances i liked were from Grammar and Stanford, and the kid who played young Angel sold his scene completely also IMO. Janssen was good when allowed to be.

I agree some of the dialogue was weaker than in the previous movies. Didn't mind McKellen's facial expressions in the convoy scene though.

He didnt leave before the energy burst from the Scott/Jean fight cracked the dam, we see them on the floor in torture together when Magneto is stopping Cerebro, then when he does, we see Scott helping Jean up.

Ah, okay. But we don't know what exactly Magneto sensed or thought would happen.

Why didnt she have resentment towards some of the others then, Magneto also probably had a part to play in her development at a young age, he knew what Xavier was doing, why didnt Jean resent him? Plus she is psychic, she must have known Magneto was only using her. He should have been insignificant to her, not an ally, another bad decision.

Xavier was the one who feared for her power when they first met, and he was the one who installed 'mental barriers'. Magneto seemed to relish her powers when they first met and he is never mentioned as having any involvement with the mental blocks - that's not something he could do, or would do. Phoenix would have no reason to resent Magneto. For all we know, and it seems likely, Xavier's mental blocks might have been part of the reason Xavier and Magneto fell out and parted ways - Xavier wanted to hide everyone and their powers at the mansion and hope they would slowly get the world to accept them. The entire school was like a giant 'mental block' - he was hiding the X-Men away from the world.

I don't think Magneto was ever maliciously using Jean, he just hoped she would fervently join his cause and be on his side - but she didn't ever truly join his cause, due to her mental turmoils making her ambivalent and hesitant and unpredictable.

But in my version, she would have had emotion and facial expression while watching the battle, i would have loved a scene of Jean trying to walk away but the Pheonix telepathically drags her back to the battle. Would have shown the conflict much more than her just standing around

I'd have liked to get more from Phoenix at the early part of that battle.

He was obviously building up as a threat, Xavier talks quite a bit about protecting humanity from him to Wolverine.

But we don't know exactly what Magneto has done. If you have a criticism of that, it is a criticism of X1 and not X3.

Iceman's family gave some reasons, they were obviously prejudice against mutants, considering they couldnt even say the word in relation to Bobby, and called it "The Mutant Problem!" Not to mention the "Have you tried.....NOT being a mutant!" comment, its a lot more than we got from Worthington Senior.

Iceman's family didn't give any real reasons at all. They just didn't like mutants and saw it as a problem - they didn't explain why.

What we got from Worthington Snr was: 'It's a better life. It's what we all want." He obviously saw it as a better life not to suffer with a mutation that would cause personal grief and also social prejudice, and that everyone wants to be accepted and to be normal. That sounds fine.

I dont mind the odd cameo, but X3 had like FIFTY, Even Angel and Kitty could be looked at as glamorised cameo's, there is point they shouldnt go beyond.

Example, Orci and Kurtzman's early TF drafts had a very small part which could have been considered a cameo for a very popular Decepticon, Soundwave, but they thought it would be a great injustice to the character, and so left him completely for the sequel.

I believe X3 did this with Gambit, but they made up for it with all the other crappy cameo's, i mean, can anyone honestly say they were happy to see Quills?

Well, X3 did remove Gambit, Nightcrawler and (if some alleged drafts are to be believed) Avalanche and Scarlet Witch, and Omega Red (and his cartoon companion Gauntlet). I'm glad all these characters didn't get packed into the movie. Even if it had been a lot longer, it's hard to believe so many well-known characters would get the screentime they all deserved. I think some minor characters were fine - we got tiny roles for Siryn, Jubilee and Kitty in X2, as well as the invented character Jones and a character called Artie who is nothing like the comicbook Artie. We also didn't get much from Deathstrike in X2 - one non-clawed action scene against Cyclops, and a fatal fight against Wolverine.

A small role from Gambit or Nightcrawler in X3 would have been frustrating for many. Adding in powerful villains like Avalanche and Scarlet Witch would need some careful writing - i can just hear the fanboys wondering why Avalanche didn't collapse the Grey house, why he didn't collapse the Alcatraz prison, why Scarlet Witch didn't disintegrate the X-jet or turn the plastic darts into flower petals. These villains are quite risky to include because their abilities could end any battle at any time!

So, a decision to use minor henchmen with weaker powers and with no backstory that had to be included or needed to be included was a wise option in the end. Quill and Arclight seemed fine and I was not that fussed over Psylocke's tiny role as the comicbook version has an absurdly complex backstory and a weird power of 'psychic knives' that may have been difficult to depict as a logical mutational ability.

If you can cope with Artie, Jones, Siryn, Jubilee and Kitty in X2, then i don't see why you can't cope with the minor roles in X3. They were there to flesh out Magneto's army, to show the number and variety of mutants out there, and to prevent well-known characters being totally wasted.