I re-watched "The Dark Knight" this weekend...

[Chris Wallace]

and I still really enjoyed it. I will say that it was the best (IMO) comic book movie of 2008. That said, its only real competition in my eyes was from "Incredible Hulk" & "Iron Man". I hated "Hellboy II" & liked "Wanted" even less. I do not, however, agree with the droves of fans who seem to think it's the best movie in the history of the genre. Nor do I agree that it's the standard by which all superhero movies should be judged, or the standard by which they should all be made. I hope with all my heart that Sony, Fox, Marvel, etc. don't make the mistake of caving in to all the fans who seem to think so.
Because watching ths movie now, after 5 months of incessant praise, has led me to this conclusion:
FANBOYS ARE FULL OF $***!
I'll say it again-fanboys are full of $***. Why? Because for years I've listened to comic fans moan & whine & complain & nitpick every movie to freakin' death. They don't like the leather X-uniforms, or organic webbing, or the armored Green Goblin suit, or this change or that change. "The director doesn't get it! They don't get us! They have no imagination! WHy can't they make it more like the comics? Why can't we get the real origin instead of this Hollywood crap? Why all this so-called realism? Why are they changing the costumes?"
On and on and on. And you know what? The oh-so wonderful, oh-so awesome "Dark Knight" has all of these things. Can you show me any widely-known comic book movie that is further removed from the comics than this?
Joker's wearing makeup-badly, at that. His persona is radically different from that of any variation we've seen in at least 40 years. Two-Face (who is never actually called that) is made by fire rather than acid. This is in the wake of a love triangle with Bruce, himself & a largely unlikeable love interest.

(While we complain about Kirsten Dunst ad nauseum.)
Over relatively very little dissent, Batman gallivants around in a bulky sectional armor

which is seemingly ok, but I've heard seven years of complaints about a similar armor

and the confusion over why he couldn't just wear this.

The list goes on, but my main point is, Nolan followed his interpretation of the characters & story, regardless what many fans said they wanted. And the response was resoundingly positive overall. Which leads me to believe that fanboys don't know WHAT they want & just like to complain.
Again, I really hope that none of the other filmmakers jump on the TDK bandwagon & lead completely different characters to disaster.

 

[rnewbz]

The answer is easy, some changes work in certain movies and some don't. Dark Knight rules. Rachel was a made up character and while some people may not like her she isn't comparable to Dunst as Mary-Jane because Dunst is nothing like the comic character that already exist. The Joker's personality is alot like the comic books in fact, maybe you should read some and the make-up while not like the comic book worked quite well because as I stated earlier some changes in movies work and others don't.

 

[OsGom]

I agree whole heartedly Chris.

I recall the typical Fanboy response to Ledger being cast as the Joker, fresh off Brokeback Mountain. All the negativity and gaybashing generated from that decision was sickening. Now Heath is viewed as an icon and there is no one who will ever be fit to play the Joker again.

I think TDK is definitely a top tier adaptation but not the end all be all of comic book movies.

 

[The Joker]

- Joker looked waaaaaay cooler than the Green Goblin, and alot closer to his comic book counterpart than the Green Goblin did to his.
- Rachel Dawes is a lousy character, I agree. But she's not a comic book character. She was not the focal point of Bruce Wayne's life, unlike the way MJ is in Peter's. "This story is all about a girl".
- Fire/acid, what's the difference how Two Face gets scarred as long as he gets scarred? And the name Two Face is mentioned in the movie, at least.
- Joker's persona is radically different? In what way? His motivation is taken from the Killing Joke, where he tried to push Jim Gordon to insanity just to prove that everyone else is the same as him:

In TDK, they just expanded that to have him doing that to all of Gotham City.
- Batman's armour looks waaaaaay cooler than Goblin's. If Goblin's costume looked good, do you think you'd hear a whisper of a complaint about it? Ock in SM-2 didn't wear his traditional green spandex or armani suits from the comics. He wore a trenchcoat. But nobody complained because he looked badass in it. Batman doesn't have super powers. He needs to wear armour for protection against knives, bullets, and other such dangers. Much like Stark does with his Iron Man armour. Like Bruce Wayne, he has no super powers.

Overall, the changes made in TDK stayed alot closer to the spirit of the comic book characters than some of the changes in the Spidey movies.

 

[Swordmaster]

I should also add to Joker's excellent post that there was a lot of complaining about the new Batsuit's design. Still is, for all I know.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I agree whole heartedly Chris.

I recall the typical Fanboy response to Ledger being cast as the Joker, fresh off Brokeback Mountain. All the negativity and gaybashing generated from that decision was sickening. Now Heath is viewed as an icon and there is no one who will ever be fit to play the Joker again.

I think TDK is definitely a top tier adaptation but not the end all be all of comic book movies.

This is my main bullet point right here.
And some of you Dark Knight fans should read my entire opening post before rushing to the defense of your beloved film. I'm not attacking it. I am pointing out that it departs from the comics just as much, if not moreso, as the many films that have gotten relentlessly bashed up to & since its release.
Oh, and Joker-I was comparing the Goblin suit to Batman's, not Joker's.

 

[The Joker]

And some of you Dark Knight fans should read my entire opening post before rushing to the defense of your beloved film.

No need to be like that, Chris. Nobody accused you of bashing it. We're just addressing the points you made. That's all.

Nobody was hostile towards you.

I'm not attacking it. I am pointing out that it departs from the comics just as much, if not moreso, as the many films that have gotten relentlessly bashed up to & since its release.

Nobody denied the changes. But there's big differences between say Sandman being Uncle Ben's real killer, and Harvey Dent getting scarred by fire instead of acid.

Oh, and Joker-I was comparing the Goblin suit to Batman's, not Joker's.

I know. I was just pointing out that the reason Goblin's armour is disliked is because it looks lame. Not because it's simply armour. Nobody has anything against armour.

We all expect costume changes for some characters. Their comic book ones just wouldn't work on screen. But it's not too much to ask to give them a cool looking new costume.

 

[Infinity9999x]

You know what Chris, I agree with you, fanboys do seem awfully hypocritical in their praise of TDK. However, I think there's a reason for this.

I've been saying for a long time that I don't care all that much about what I would consider secondary details, which I would categorize as things like organic webbing, Goblins armor, or Joker's makeup. I'm more concerned with how the characters are portrayed. If the filmmakers get the characters right, then I can overlook those little nuances. (As long as the changes to their look aren't too radical.) Now, would I like these little details to be right? Well yeah, of course I would, but it doesn't make or break the movie for me.

Now, for all of the long discussions, arguments, and debates we have on these ideas, I think most of the people around here are more or less the same. Did we b*tch and moan about Joker's makeup when we first saw it? Oh hell yes, and I was one of the makeup haters. However, I debated for the makeup with the mindset that, yeah I'll probably love this movie anyways, but I would have rather had him perma-white. I think we all know that, deep down, if the movie's good, we won't be as bothered by the little changes.

However, the reason why TDK is held up so high, while all these other movies are nitpicked to death, is for one reason; and that is that it's the better made movie. TDK is probably the highest quality and best made superhero movie ever. Because it's written, directed, and such a high quality product, the fans don't care about the little things as much.

All the other superhero movies before this have endured the endless nitpicking because they weren't of the quality of TDK (in my opinion of course). And I'm not saying they were bad, some were very good, but each had small problems that held them back, that made them not quite as good. And I think because each of these movies never quite hit that quality level, the fanboys felt justified in their earlier criticisms and nitpicks. Really, when we look at why any of these movies haven't quite hit that greatness mark, you can always narrow it down to the writing, but most people don't realize that, and we feel justified in still citing our nitpicks as part of the reason why the movie wasn't as good as we wanted.

When you get down to it, if any of the past superhero movies had been the quality of TDK, people would have shut up about their nitpicks on those movies as well. Because as I said, it's really all about the story. Daredevil didn't suck because we had a black Kingpin, F4 didn't suck because the Thing didn't look exactly how we wanted him, and it wasn't because of Harry wearing a paintball mask that SM3 ended up bad. It was because of the story.

All we really want is a well told story that's true to our favorite characters. TDK did this the best out of any other Superhero film to date, and I believe this is the reason we threw aside our nitpicks. Would I still have preferred the Joker have perma-white skin? Of course, but it doesn't bother me as much because the final product turned out so good anyways. Did I dislike the GG's armor in SM1? Yes, and it bothers me more because that movie didn't portray Spider-man in the way I wanted. It's like that little extra bit of salt in a wound, and it's why they bother us more.

 

[protocida]

I don't think "Fanboys are full of ****". Several comic book fans disliked BB and TDK because of Batman's armor, Batman's voice, Batman's tumbler, Batman's HQ and etc. But the maiority liked because they're awesome movies, really true to character, despite some visual adaptations.

And Harvey Dent is called Two-Face in a scene, where he's talking to Comissioner Gordon in the hospital and asks Gordon to tell him the nickname he received from the cops when he was in internal affairs (Harvey Two-Face).

 

[protocida]

By the way, i liked the X-uniforms, Green Goblin's armor, the organical webbing and etc. And, despite the fact that i tought Heath Ledger would't be good as the Joker (And thankfully, i was wrong), i never bashed him. I hade my doubts, and they we're proved wrong.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think "Fanboys are full of ****". Several comic book fans disliked BB and TDK because of Batman's armor, Batman's voice, Batman's tumbler, Batman's HQ and etc. But the maiority liked because they're awesome movies, really true to character, despite some visual adaptations.

And Harvey Dent is called Two-Face in a scene, where he's talking to Comissioner Gordon in the hospital and asks Gordon to tell him the nickname he received from the cops when he was in internal affairs (Harvey Two-Face).

Okay, 1-I am well aware of the negative remarks, ok? I am. But they are comparatively few, & are greatly overshadowed by the hoopla of "There is the Dark Knight and there's everything else/(Insert studio name here) get a clue & watch Dark Knight/Dark Knight is the greatest comic book movie of all time/If you don't like Dark Knight you're an idiot!" And I'm simply saying that BB & TDK didn't get anywhere near as much nitpicking as any other franchise, which I find hypocritical-i.e., full of $***. Especially when none of the movies I'm defending exactly went belly-up. So all the ways that the director just betrayed you & destroyed your beloved icon didn't stop you from going to see the movie umpteen times. If I feel like they are truly going in the wrong direction, they don't get my money. (Superman Returns) If they get my money & I enjoy the movie, I don't dwell on the numerous minor, ultimately insignificant ways that they deviated from the storyline I grew up with. But to say it's acceptable for one & not for another makes no sense to me. How is it ok for Batman to wear a stolen military prototype for a costume but not for the Goblin to do the same? How is it ok for Batman to have multiple villains/plotlines but not for Spider-Man or the X-Men? How is it ok for Batman to consider hanging up his mask in the name of love, & sit around feeling sorry for himself but not for Spider-Man? And why is it that the same fans who have expressed these views keep insisting that the other filmmakers should follow Batman's example? I loved "Blade" but I don't want anyone else walking around in sunglasses saying "Some motherf***ers are always tryin' to ice-skate uphill." What works for one does not work for all.
2-An off-handed reference to a past nickname isn't the same as referring to him as such as a result of his disfigurement.
3-I am, once again, not denying that the Nolan Bat-flicks are great movies. Just maybe not as great as so many insist on making them out to be.

 

[WeaponXProject]

I'm not gonna lie, I hated the second Batman suit. Hated the Tumbler in the first movie. Hated the tough Batman voice. Etc...but I loved the movie.

Same goes for the X uniforms. But I loved the X series.


Look fans will complain. I still complain about the Star Wars prequels sucking but....atleast they were made. Atleast we got 3 Spidey, now Four X-Men movies, two beautiful Batman movies and so on and so on...

We're gonna complain but I still appreciate a great film. And I appreciate that someone like Nolan raised the bar.


As for TDK being the best film of the year. No way. Slumdog Millionaire was. Benjamin Button was close. Wrestler was close and TDK maybe was 4th, 5th or 6th. But it was the best movie based on something we love so that's what counts to me.

 

[Infinity9999x]

And I'm simply saying that BB & TDK didn't get anywhere near as much nitpicking as any other franchise, which I find hypocritical-i.e., full of $***. Especially when none of the movies I'm defending exactly went belly-up. .

I was addressing this particular point in my above post.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You know what Chris, I agree with you, fanboys do seem awfully hypocritical in their praise of TDK. However, I think there's a reason for this.

I've been saying for a long time that I don't care all that much about what I would consider secondary details, which I would categorize as things like organic webbing, Goblins armor, or Joker's makeup. I'm more concerned with how the characters are portrayed. If the filmmakers get the characters right, then I can overlook those little nuances. (As long as the changes to their look aren't too radical.) Now, would I like these little details to be right? Well yeah, of course I would, but it doesn't make or break the movie for me.

Now, for all of the long discussions, arguments, and debates we have on these ideas, I think most of the people around here are more or less the same. Did we b*tch and moan about Joker's makeup when we first saw it? Oh hell yes, and I was one of the makeup haters. However, I debated for the makeup with the mindset that, yeah I'll probably love this movie anyways, but I would have rather had him perma-white. I think we all know that, deep down, if the movie's good, we won't be as bothered by the little changes.

However, the reason why TDK is held up so high, while all these other movies are nitpicked to death, is for one reason; and that is that it's the better made movie. TDK is probably the highest quality and best made superhero movie ever. Because it's written, directed, and such a high quality product, the fans don't care about the little things as much.

All the other superhero movies before this have endured the endless nitpicking because they weren't of the quality of TDK (in my opinion of course). And I'm not saying they were bad, some were very good, but each had small problems that held them back, that made them not quite as good. And I think because each of these movies never quite hit that quality level, the fanboys felt justified in their earlier criticisms and nitpicks. Really, when we look at why any of these movies haven't quite hit that greatness mark, you can always narrow it down to the writing, but most people don't realize that, and we feel justified in still citing our nitpicks as part of the reason why the movie wasn't as good as we wanted.

When you get down to it, if any of the past superhero movies had been the quality of TDK, people would have shut up about their nitpicks on those movies as well. Because as I said, it's really all about the story. Daredevil didn't suck because we had a black Kingpin, F4 didn't suck because the Thing didn't look exactly how we wanted him, and it wasn't because of Harry wearing a paintball mask that SM3 ended up bad. It was because of the story.

All we really want is a well told story that's true to our favorite characters. TDK did this the best out of any other Superhero film to date, and I believe this is the reason we threw aside our nitpicks. Would I still have preferred the Joker have perma-white skin? Of course, but it doesn't bother me as much because the final product turned out so good anyways. Did I dislike the GG's armor in SM1? Yes, and it bothers me more because that movie didn't portray Spider-man in the way I wanted. It's like that little extra bit of salt in a wound, and it's why they bother us more.

But "better made" is strictly a matter of opinion, no matter how many Dark Knight fans want it to be documented as fact.
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, but to be quite honest, I got more enjoyment out of all three Spider-Man films than I did out of "Dark Knight". That's just my opinion. I even like X2 moreso than "Dark Knight", despite its brutal butchering of one of my favorite characters.
Now I'm not saying that I never come out of any movie wishing that one or two things had been closer to the comics. Especially if I really liked the movie. Hell, if the movie was crap, who cares how much it deviated? Superman being able to lift 500 million pounds of kryptonite with a sliver of it still embedded in his side was the very least of that movie's problems. But to spend YEARS dwelling on the differences, then to have a movie come along with just as many deviations-if not more-and give it a free pass just doesn't make sense to me. The posts I've read all these years, & the conversations I've had have all pointed to the fans being too damn busy picking the movie apart while watching it to be able to enjoy it at all. So what truly renders Dark Knight immune to the majority of that very same excessive analysis?

 

[WeaponXProject]

I like X-2 more and Spidey 1 is close behind. To me I look as it more as a fantastic crime movie that just so happens to have Batman and the Joker in it. Truthfully I like these movies for different reasons. It's not flawless, it's not the most rewatchable comic film and it wasn't the most action packed comic film but it was damn good and stayed away from corniness. Most importantly to me is that TDK wasn't filmed for a younger generation which made it more relatable than Spidey trying to deliver pizza or Sups trying to save a cat from a tree or a joke of Cyclops listening to N'Sync.

 

[The Joker]

But "better made" is strictly a matter of opinion

And you disagreeing that it's better made is your opinion. No more equally valid than theirs. So I don't know why you're making such a big deal out of this, Chris.

Would you be so vocal if it was Spidey fans saying the same thing about one of the Spider-Man movies? I mean I constantly see you defending Spider-Man 3.

 

[Infinity9999x]

But "better made" is strictly a matter of opinion, no matter how many Dark Knight fans want it to be documented as fact.
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, but to be quite honest, I got more enjoyment out of all three Spider-Man films than I did out of "Dark Knight". That's just my opinion. I even like X2 moreso than "Dark Knight", despite its brutal butchering of one of my favorite characters.
Now I'm not saying that I never come out of any movie wishing that one or two things had been closer to the comics. Especially if I really liked the movie. Hell, if the movie was crap, who cares how much it deviated? Superman being able to lift 500 million pounds of kryptonite with a sliver of it still embedded in his side was the very least of that movie's problems. But to spend YEARS dwelling on the differences, then to have a movie come along with just as many deviations-if not more-and give it a free pass just doesn't make sense to me. The posts I've read all these years, & the conversations I've had have all pointed to the fans being too damn busy picking the movie apart while watching it to be able to enjoy it at all. So what truly renders Dark Knight immune to the majority of that very same excessive analysis?

You're right, it is just opinion, however, more people consider TDK a higher quality film than any other superhero film before it. More critics, people who have evaluated films longer then any of us an do it as a profession, have rated TDK higher than any other Superhero movie. TDK is being considered for major categories in the Oscars, something no other superhero film has done. It's as close to fact as you can get. I can say I don't think Godfather is as enjoyable to me as Superman, but that doesn't mean that Godfather still isn't the better made film. Obviously, not only fanboys, but the general public, consider TDK to be a higher quality film than any other superhero film before it.

And I agree with this sentiment. I could start giving you reasons as to why I think it's a better put together film then any of the Spider-mans, but I think we would get a bit off topic. But my point is, because TDK is the higher quality film (in my opinon of course, but one that's shared by the majority of people out there) the fanboys were able to overlook the nitpicks. It's when the movie isn't quite at that quality level that people start tearing it apart with nitpicks, because, as I've said, when a movie is bad, or even not quite as good as we'd like it to be, the little details that they get wrong are like salt in the wound, and so we focus on it more.

I completely agree with your (second) bolded sentace, it's not the nitpicks that ruin the movie for us, it's the writing, but when a movie is bad, we tend to focus on the little things even more. <<<<And that's basically what I'm getting at.

Since the quality of TDK was so high, and it was such a good movie (again only my opinion but one that is shared by a large majority) the nitpicks don't bother us as much. Your first bolded sentace illustrates my point. You thought X2 was a very good movie, and as such you were able to ignore the little details in it that would have bugged you. This is the attitude mose have with TDK.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You & I never really agree, Infinity. At the same time, you & I never really disagree. Every time I try to paint something black or white you insist on making it grey.

 

[ross2287]

I still don't like Batman's new suit.
I didn't like Ledger as Joker until I saw a manip that made him look like The Joker out of Hush.
I'm kind of upset that Two-Face's origin was messed with.

I still love The Dark Knight, though.

I guess I've just never been a whiney fanboy.

 

[Infinity9999x]

You & I never really agree, Infinity. At the same time, you & I never really disagree. Every time I try to paint something black or white you insist on making it grey.

Haha, sorry, I can't help it, I love to debate. And, Shades of Gray is one of my favorite songs .

 

[RootBeerMaster]

I get what you guys are all getting at. And I don't have any room to talk. I have only read 1 batman comics, well it was 2 comics but 1 part. So most of My knowlege of Batman comes from all the Batman Cartoons, and the movies in the 90s. However I don't see Why fan boys who follow the comics would be upset about his suit being Changed or The Batmobile being replaced by the Tumblier. Realistically Batman should have 100s of Different suits. For Different Villians, Different Situations, Upgrades or Downgrades depending on what he needs the suit to do like in the Dark Knight. I aways figured it was like How tony has more than 1 Iornman suit for different situations. I would also think these would apply for the Batmobile changeing it for different situations. So even if I did get in to Batman comics I can't see how a different Car or Suit would be that big of a change. Cause I would think in the real world it would be nessacary.

I don't know about the changes with Rachel or the Joker but I don't really Care, let the fans complain about Rachel, But the Joker was Awsome.

I Don't even Like Batman all that Much and in my oppion this is the Best Movie ever. Heck I like x-men better than Batman. But The Dark Knight Destoryed those movies.

 

[Spider-Vader]

I sort of agree with you, but TDK is my favorite comic-book movie. Best acting, best story & (IMO) best action.

I hate Rachel Dawes. Pointless character, she just fills up the stereotypical super hero love interest, which I hope a Deadpool movie will break.

I personally liked the Batman armor alot. I also like Gobbie's armor & the organic webbing. Though, the biker X-Men outfits suck. I'd rather have Wolverine's iconic costume.

My biggest problem is that Two-Face gets killed without really doing anything as a villain. Especially since he's my favorite Batman villain.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Chris you have a tremendous point. You are 100% correct, your post is the exact reason why I now ignore the fanboys points about the Spider-Man movies. I disagree with you about the X-films because I felt that too much was changed and not for the better, because the films didn't do anything for me but we see eye to eye about the first two Spider-Man flicks.

They other filmmakers who make these comicbook movie's should not follow TDK because what worked for TDK will not work for these other characters. Also I perfer the first two Spidey films over TDK and Batman Begins but I don't think that the filmmakers should make every film like those flicks.

Personally, I liked Dunst and felt that her and Tobey actually had chemistry, so I don't bash her. But RD was an invented annoying childhood love interest and Bale didn't have chemistry with either of the actresses, so I couldn't look pass that fact. It is shocking how the fanboys ignore those little facts.

TDK is taken down a notch for me because I didn't truely care when she was killed off...among other things.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think anybody really cared about the loss of Rachel; she just wasn't likeable.

 

[Red Mask]

I don't think anybody really cared about the loss of Rachel; she just wasn't likeable.

Naw, today's Batman just can't save his women. That will become a new trait of his character. t:

I didn't watch Wanted, because I think the premise - even the original comic - is so obnoxious. I'd already seen enough super-assassins that year. I already know the world has many corrupt people who control the world. Just yesterday I saw a documentary of the war profiteers from Iraq's misery. One of them was the contractor Custer Battle, who dumped a former FBI man outside the Green Zone, to shut him up over their illegal profits! A crooked American tried to do get a fellow American killed in Iraq! And Custer Battle is just the small fish in that region.

I loved Hellboy 2 because I enjoy fantasy in my adventure films. Before, a growing cynicism was darkening the comics medium. Now I see that they're making our view of the world more mundane. In Hellboy where else can we get something as amazing as the Troll Market, or watch two monsters sing a Barry Manilow song while drunk? That is absolute gold.

I couldn't even laugh at single scene in Dark Knight. But if such terror struck America, the guys I'd rather trust are either Homeland Security, the F.B.I., or just call the damn National Guard. That's the reality I see in today's mundane world.