The Dark Knight Rises I want Gotham to have more of a personality this time.

[Chris Wallace]

I grew up in Chicago. I used to live just a few blocks from the "hospital" that the Joker blew up. (It was actually a candy factory.) I once dated a girl who had to take the Metra train home every day, & many nights I kissed her goodbye at the train terminal where Batman blasts through the glass. Last time I was home I caught the train right where Bruce crahsed his Lamborghini. So it was very hard for me to pretend I was looking at some fictional city & not my hometown in TDK. Another thing I thought about recently, is that we have seen COUNTLESS images of Batman standing on, crouching next to, or swinging from gargoyles-something the Windy City doesn't have, at least that I've noticed. Now I got many of the things I was hoping for in the previous films; a more physical Batman who actually administers some beatdowns, rooftop meetings with Gordon, Batman bailing mid-conversation. But I want a Gotham that feels more like Gotham. And before you say it, no. I do not want a return to the neon museum of Schumacher's films. I just don't want to sit through the entier movie reminiscing about my childhood.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I agree with you. I've whined and ranted about this for so long....

 

[Chris Wallace]

I take it your cries were either ignored or met with hostility on these boards.

 

[griffolyon12]

This is a valid debate. While Nolan and company seem to be going more for realism, they have taken it so far to pretty much lose the personality of Gotham in the process. TDK's Gotham was essentially Chicago for lack of a better city, whilst it gave it realism, it took away from the comic book vibe. Personally, I felt the Gotham in BB was the perfect balance between realism and comic book-styled fantasticalness, largely to do with the Narrows and a few other little touches that made the city seem more grandiose, a touch more special than your average metropolis.

 

[Boom]

I always felt bad for you guys in Chicago for this very reason.

 

[Crook]

Nolan's Gotham has been so ingrained with Chicago architecture and scenery that it would be superfluous to alter it at this point.

But if it's any consolation, it's incredibly difficult to create an entirely new city and make it look convincing. I have yet to come across a film that has achieved this, as I can immediately spot sets and cgi.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I take it your cries were either ignored or met with hostility on these boards.

Not really. Maybe i am at fault as well for whining too much about it. But in the end, it was such a big disappointment for me. TDK was a great movie, but the uber realism (reflected on Chicago-Gotham, the batsuit, the nullification of Batman's urban legend-intimidation status, the general direction), and the fact that the movie didnt focus on Bruce but on Gotham in general ruined it for me. I have often confessed that when the Joker says: "i feel you and i are destined to do this forever" i should have gotten goosebumps, but i didnt. I just didnt feel like i was seeing the start of the eternal Batman-Joker battle.

I felt that Chicago was a lot more masked in Begins. The extensive use of CGI, the monorail and the aerial shots gave the impression of an imaginary city and not Chicago. I could use a few gargoyles, but it was OK i guess.

And one more thing. IMHO the Narrows were a bit far fetched and unnecessary. Instead of making Gotham a dirty city in general, Nolan cramped all the dirtiness in the Narrows turning them into this caricature little world. Not even Gotham is that ****ty. All i am saying is that Gotham is like a dirty New York city with some gargoyles and "gothamy" elements. Its not a clean city with a little island where all the filth and dirt is concentrated.

And it would be nice if we ever saw Batman actually scramble on rooftops (Ras' quote ) for once. In the comics some of the best pages are about Batman jumping/flying/grappling over buildings and streets. I'd like to see him patrol, follow, chase, fight on rooftops, instead of driving wherever the action is (exception: end of Begins when he flied over the Narrows). I was looking for batman pictures, but i think these will do just fine:

Spoiler

 

[Mr. Earle]

Nolan's Gotham has been so ingrained with Chicago architecture and scenery that it would be superfluous to alter it at this point.

But if it's any consolation, it's incredibly difficult to create an entirely new city and make it look convincing. I have yet to come across a film that has achieved this, as I can immediately spot sets and cgi.

I dunno, the Narrows looked pretty good. You'd think they really existed. Of course their unrealistic design game them away.
Snyder's NY in Watchmen look good as well and that was a set too.

 

[Milkman95]

I agree, I watched Begins the other day and liked the mix, hopefully we see more of the Narrows and Arkham comes back. I definitely need the batcave....

 

[Mach2Infinity]

I do agree that the Gotham City as show in The Dark Knight was too 'sanitary' for my liking. I understand why there was a contrast between the two films, since Chris Nolan wanted to convey a more bustling and vibrant Gotham in TDK. Although I much preferred it as it was shown in Batman Begins; a rusty, decayed and filthy city. Perhaps the CGI segments of the Narrows looked too fabricated but the actual live sets were pretty convincing. Unless I'm mistaken, they built a 'mini-Gotham' film set for BB in an old disused aircraft hangar with an actual working monorail system? Perhaps if they had done the same for the second film then there would have been seamless continuity between the Gotham of BB and TDK. I certainly saw no real segue between the two. If the Narrows is "lost" as Jim Gordon said at the end of BB then let's see it! If this is the criminal underbelly of Gotham then this would be Batman's hunting ground. Perhaps Batman is conducting his own 'broken window' policy?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Unless I'm mistaken, they built a 'mini-Gotham' film set for BB in an old disused aircraft hangar with an actual working monorail system?

They built the Narrows in that hangar. They didnt construct a monorail, but the scene in which Batman is towed by it was shot with Batman getting towed by a cable hanging from the ceiling of the hangar. They added the monorail digitally. Its in the extras. You can find them on youtube.

If the Narrows is "lost" as Jim Gordon said at the end of BB

That was so wrong. Gordon made it seem as if the Narrows was the problem, as if the Narrows was Gotham. Gotham should be Gotham everywhere, not condensed on a small island.

 

[[A]]

I take it most of you loved CGI-Gotham from Begins..?

 

[Travesty]

And it would be nice if we ever saw Batman actually scramble on rooftops (Ras' quote ) for once. In the comics some of the best pages are about Batman jumping/flying/grappling over buildings and streets. I'd like to see him patrol, follow, chase, fight on rooftops, instead of driving wherever the action is (exception: end of Begins when he flied over the Narrows). I was looking for batman pictures, but i think these will do just fine:

I would love to see a scene like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK0M4d0rrgY

 

[Mr. Earle]

I take it most of you loved CGI-Gotham from Begins..?

Having to choose between Chicago and a city made with CGI, i'll have to choose CGI. If they'd spent more money on it, the CGI would have looked a lot better (judging by how great the Transformers look. Here we re only taking about a few buildings in CGI, it would be a lot easier), but i still take that over a Gotham that looks just like a real city.

I would love to see a scene like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK0M4d0rrgY

That was pretty good! With today's tools and CGI they could make a very spectacular rooftop scene. I'd even propose the use of slow motion in key moments. Like when Batman is jumping over a street, or when he is falling between two buildings and we see him pass next to windows, etc. But not overusing it like Snyder.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I always felt bad for you guys in Chicago for this very reason.

Because we can't separate?

 

[jmc]

Maybe it's because I'm not a local but to me anyway Gotham did have personality, it felt epic in scale, it's was almost a character in and of itself.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Gotham's personality lies in many things; among them its architecture. I love CHicago's personality and its architecture, but I can't pretend it's someplace else.

This is not Gotham.

 

[Brother Jack]

Maybe it's because I'm not a local but to me anyway Gotham did have personality, it felt epic in scale, it's was almost a character in and of itself.

Yes. I've visited Chicago, seen where TDK was filmed, and yet I still see it as Gotham in the movie. Instead of feeling like a carbon copy of an actual city it felt like a living, breathing organism of a metropolitan city. It was vital to the narrative of TDK, to show the scope of what was at stake for Batman to save and the Joker to destroy.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I don't DISLIKE the locale they chose; I just think they can do it better. WHere's the gothic architecture? The gargoyles?

 

[Crook]

I dunno, the Narrows looked pretty good. You'd think they really existed. Of course their unrealistic design game them away.
Snyder's NY in Watchmen look good as well and that was a set too.

All of them either look cgi-enhanced, or incredibly claustrophobic. You compare any film shoot that utilizes an actual city background, with that of a set, and you'll see they are a world apart. The scope of the shot is expanded tenfold.

I'm with you, I would much rather have had a Gotham that looks unique. But simply looking at this in terms of what tools we have now, I find it impossible (especially for someone like Nolan) to capture the scale TDK had without shooting on a real template.

 

[Brother Jack]

I don't DISLIKE the locale they chose; I just think they can do it better. WHere's the gothic architecture? The gargoyles?

That stuff hasn't been in either Nolan film, so it isn't like he omitted it from TDK. I would be lying if I said I wouldn't want to see elements similar to those, but the way I see it they have to fit into the story. The Narrows worked for Begins, the steel & glass canyons worked for TDK, you get the picture.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The advantage here is that we have yet to see the whole of Gotham, so he could easily incorporate those things without contradicting anything he's done thus far.

 

[Mr. Earle]

All of them either look cgi-enhanced, or incredibly claustrophobic. You compare any film shoot that utilizes an actual city background, with that of a set, and you'll see they are a world apart. The scope of the shot is expanded tenfold.

I'm with you, I would much rather have had a Gotham that looks unique. But simply looking at this in terms of what tools we have now, I find it impossible (especially for someone like Nolan) to capture the scale TDK had without shooting on a real template.

You are right, shooting in an actual city is a lot better than shooting in a set. But what if they enhance it with CGI? For example decorating a building with CGI gargoyles, enriching the skyline (happened in TDK), etc.

For Gotham you basically need:
- Financial district in the centre with tall skyscrapers. Dozens of them (here's were you need most of the CGI).
- Docks/sea front
- The rest is filled with gritty neighbourhoods of tall apartment buildings (they can simply shoot this in any gritty neighbourhood with tall buildings. Chicago, NY, whatever). This is where the action mostly takes place in the comics. (Gotham skyline might need to be added in the background if the shot calls for it)
- Outskirts where Wayne Manor is. (btw I really liked that it was next to the sea in BTAS. They should have done that in the movies as well)
- Arkham, preferably outside of town.

You dont need the Narrows. The Narrows were far fetched even for Gotham.

On a different note, i wouldnt mind aerial shots of the neighborhood that the action takes place. It relieves the claustrophobia and it gives a sense of direction. We had those in Begins but not in TDK and i felt kinda lost to be honest.

Gotham is the city equivalent of Alice's Wonderland. Directors should be ready to kill for an opportunity to adapt it. And aside from aerial shots, another way they can show it is by taking the action on rooftops, ledges, windows, etc. Basically something like the Narrows scenes in Begins. TDK was mostly shot in dark alleys making it claustrophobic and pretty bland if you ask me. I love pages that show action on rooftops where we see these chasms of concrete and glass with light coming from the streets way down and with the memory cloth cape, the action up there could be even better in the movies.

 

[Bnightwing]

Gotham is dirty, and clean in the day, Gotham has it's own feel

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

While I agree that Gotham was not very "Gothic" looking, I have thought about this issue for a while and realized there may be reasons for presenting it the way they did last movie.

In Batman Begins, Batman was on the offensive most of the movie, he was targeting the criminals on their turf, the seedy underbelly. The Gotham City we all know.

In The Dark Knight, the Joker was the one on the offensive. He was targeting the modern, high society parts of Gotham. He was trying to bring down the modern Gotham of the upper classes. Most of the action took place in what is probably Gotham's fancy midtown (looking on at maps of the city) because that was the where the Joker was attacking. It was the same city, but the theater of operations changed.

In the third movie (if it ever comes) I think we'll go back to the Gotham of Begins. Partially because Batman is on the run and partially because Batman will have to go back on the offensive to conclude the story. We may very well see some of TDK's Gotham though.