The Dark Knight Rises I want Gotham to have more of a personality this time.

[Pythagoras]

To me, Begins felt way more gangster-ish, with Falcone's lounge, the docks, the Narrows slumps with bare brick façades and fire escapes everywhere... the decadent city look.

In TDK, everything felt more like a modern urban terrorism thriller. I'm a long-time Batman reader and, well, it felt right to me. Yes, I agree more goargoyles and scycrapers should be added, even if it means more cgi. Yes, I agree it should be improved for the third and a more iconic gotham should be more in tune with the next stage of the story. No, I don't think TDK's Gotham was bad.

Seeing at how Begins and TDK turned out, I want a mixture of the two for B3, only grander.

I guess the 3rd film will be a political thriller then. With the government getting into the situation with Batman, and politics getting in the story.

 

[GaiusBaltar]

I'm not sure if I would call it that because in political thrillers all the action is very contained and I don't want that. Keep the stakes in the terrorism level, add the political element, plus the intimate drama. I know it's difficult, but I hope they can pull it off. Something bigger than a typical "political thriller". I may regret this eventually, but I want it more like "24" and less like "The West Wing", if you get my drift.

 

[Mr. Earle]

No, and you're right that visuals are important. But you're still exaggerating. I don't think Nolan has done anything to make Batman or Gotham something it isn't, what you're describing with Superman does.

I was exaggerating of course, but you were very absolute in your post as well. You said that only the logic and characters are important, leaving out the environment. For me that's a major minus, especially when we 're talking about Gotham, one of the most famous imaginary cities. Would you be satisfied if in the next Superman movie, Metropolis is just NY with a globe on top of one of its buildings?

Wont you be expecting Det. Stabler and Benson to pop up at any minute?

"Hey, that guy is wearing a flashy spandex suit. He must be the pedophile we re looking for. Maybe that "S" stands for "sex offender". Lets get him!"

 

[Pythagoras]

I'm not sure if I would call it that because in political thrillers all the action is very contained and I don't want that. Keep the stakes in the terrorism level, add the political element, plus the intimate drama. I know it's difficult, but I hope they can pull it off. Something bigger than a typical "political thriller". I may regret this eventually, but I want it more like "24" and less like "The West Wing", if you get my drift.

Well yeah if done right that could work I guess.

 

[jmc]

I was exaggerating of course, but you were very absolute in your post as well. You said that only the logic and characters are important, leaving out the environment. For me that's a major minus, especially when we 're talking about Gotham, one of the most famous imaginary cities. Would you be satisfied if in the next Superman movie, Metropolis is just NY with a globe on top of one of its buildings?

Problem is New York is iconic world wide, everyone knows the Manhattan skyline and the Art Deco design features of the city, cities like NY, London, Paris etc are all known globally so there is good reason you wouldn't try and play them as fictional cities. Chicago is generic, show a picture of the city to a hundred people world wide and most couldn't tell you which city it was, I know I couldn't have before TDK, hell I'd probably struggle even now. That's what makes it a perfect city to portray realistic Gotham. I get the vibe the criticism against Chicago as Gotham seems to be only from people who know the city, in which case if it was some other city playing Gotham would the same people in here still be annoyed?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Problem is New York is iconic world wide, everyone knows the Manhattan skyline and the Art Deco design features of the city, cities like NY, London, Paris etc are all known globally so there is good reason you wouldn't try and play them as fictional cities. Chicago is generic, show a picture of the city to a hundred people world wide and most couldn't tell you which city it was, I know I couldn't have before TDK, hell I'd probably struggle even now. That's what makes it a perfect city to portray realistic Gotham. I get the vibe the criticism against Chicago as Gotham seems to be only from people who know the city, in which case if it was some other city playing Gotham would the same people in here still be annoyed?

Its not so much that i recognize Chicago when watching TDK (although it is kinda recognisable in many shots), but the fact that Gotham is just some generic city. And Gotham should have as much personality as its dark knight.

 

[jmc]

But it does have personality, it's a vast urban landscape, there's an epicness to it, it compliments this Batman perfectly. That scene where Batman stands on the tower listening to police communication has got so much depth and atmosphere to it that no amount of set building or CGI work could have duplicated. If it's merely gargoyles and Gothic cathedrals you want then you're in short supply of actual cities with those specific features. Just because it lacks an architectural status quo doesn't mean the city had no personality.

 

[Mr. Earle]

But it does have personality, it's a vast urban landscape, there's an epicness to it, it compliments this Batman perfectly. That scene where Batman stands on the tower listening to police communication has got so much depth and atmosphere to it that no amount of set building or CGI work could have duplicated. If it's merely gargoyles and Gothic cathedrals you want then you're in short supply of actual cities with those specific features. Just because it lacks an architectural status quo doesn't mean the city had no personality.

Its not necessarily a matter of gargoyles and cathedrals. BB had none of that and yet it felt a lot more atmospheric than TDK. It was the general direction of the movie. Lets do a little comparison of posing scenes:
Begins:

Spoiler

TDK:

Spoiler

Notice how more atmospheric the Begins one is. In TDK he's standing like a log in the middle of nowhere. No cape cloaking, robotic suit (apparent when the camera zooms), no lights...
And then aerial shots:
BB:

Spoiler

TDK:

Spoiler

The difference in lighting might seem trivial, but you can barely see anything when you see this in the cinema. Anything memorable at least. I walked out the theatre not being able to remember one clear shot of the city.
And of course we never saw the Narrows, from an aerial point or from inside. They might be far fetched as i always say (maybe they should remove all the cables), but they do look more like Gotham than those pitch dark alleys in TDK.

- The Monorail?
- Nadda.
- Arkham?
- Destroyed
- The Joker's hideout? That must have been something.
- He didnt have one. He was a force of nature appearing out of nowhere so Nolan didnt want to "domesticate" him. Liked that one actually.
- How about the imposing manor?
- Destroyed. Although i do like the freshness of the penthouse. It was a different setting for Wayne and it actually alludes to that time that he temporarily moved to a penthouse in the comics. Its just that everything else was missing and the manor could have helped a bit here.
- Yeah, but he had a bat-bunker. That must have been something.
- Nope, it was brightly lit. Some fans claim that Nolan was using symbolism. Yeah, whatever. I only liked how all its equipment and furniture could hide in the floor.
- But the interrogation scenes, they must have been atmospheric, right?
- Batman had a habbit of turning the lights on and ruining it.
- But there must have been some other beautiful sets in this movie!
- Hm... Some warehouse, a basement, a pitch black alley, another pitch black alley, a blown up warehouse, an incomplete skyscraper filled with dust and scaffolding....
- Thank god for Hong Kong then.
- Indeed. Maroni's club was a nice touch as well.

 

[Two-Face]

That's why I like BB's Gotham more Gotham there was a mess.

 

[AnorexicBatman]

To hell with realism! No really. Judging by movies like Memento and the upcoming Inception, Nolan clearly has the taste for the surreal. That's how Gotham should be. Dirty yet clean, Beautiful yet ugly. Gothic atmosphere and a lone Bat-Man that prowls the rooftops...

 

[Pythagoras]

Sure, because London is exactly like Metropolis, and Chicaco is NOTHING like Gotham.

These reductions to the absurd have to stop. Yes, the final result of TDK's Gotham is improvable. But is it bad? Hell no. Yes, it may need more cgi, but the scope and general feel of many scenes wouldn't have been achieved in a set, no way. And having established that what you want will be better achieved with real shots of a big city, which city would you select? New York, that seems more like Gotham but it's far more recognizable worldwise than Chicago? They opted for Chicago for good reasons and the only blameworthy thing was the lack of masking they could've done. Iin a 1 to 10 scale, I give it a 7.

I love them to shoot an entire Batman film in NYC. Maybe they can with TDKR.

 

[Gotham22]

The only issue I have with this is the over-the-top part. I think the days of this style are being left behind, not only for Gotham but other franchises seem to be toning down their films in favor of a more realistic portrayal. Also, the Batman films have already gone down that road with BF and B&R and we all know how well that worked out. I understand you probably don't want it to be that over-the-top, but I think WB might be skeptical of things getting carried away again..

I don't mind scenes with a buildings from Chicago or New York city in a Batman or Superman film but when showing a skyline of Gotham or Metropolis then it shouldn't be actual skyline of New York City or Chicago.

It should be a made up/CGI city.

 

[Dark Knight]

I think there should be conversations/action/fight scenes taking place on the rooftops, sewers, subways, hall of mirrors at a fun house or carnival, and in a MUD PIT (ala TDKR graphic novel) in Gotham.

I think the weather should be rainy, windy, fog and of course some snow should be shown as well when it comes to the elements and weather in Gotham for this 3rd Bat film.

 

[That-Guy]

edit double post

 

[That-Guy]

My only real complaint here is that the city seemed to change to a more generic place between BB and TDK. In BB, we had the monorail, a much more impressive Wayne Tower and the creepy Narrows. In TDK it did just looked like an ordinary city. I'm not trying to call Chicago generic, but the way they presented it on film, I felt it looked very ordinary. I think that, if you're not familiar with Chicago, then the city could have just as easily passed for New York.

I hope that they give Gotham a bit more character in the next film. I like it when Gotham looks like a hell-hole. The absolute worst city in the U.S., overrun by madmen and criminals. I remember this poster that used to hang on the wall in my local comic shop that said something like: "Gotham City. To live here, you either have to be crazy, or be BATMAN." That pretty much sums up how I picture the city.

 

[Rodrigo90]

IMO the TDK was "politicianized". Meaning everything was turned neat and tidy,with a political taste to the movie. I like it,but wasnt a big fan. Gotham was more like Metropolis and thats a tidy looking city.

 

[flickchick85]

I thought the cleaner Gotham in TDK was an intentional choice, like since Batman hit the scene, the city appeared to clean up. It was less obviously dirty, while really it was all still happening (maybe even worse) under the surface, for the same reason that, as the Joker said, the criminal element changed their mode of operation to daylight hours.

It also reflected Batman's emotional state, since at the very beginning when the stage was set, things were supposed to be going well for Batman. His job was "nearly done" and he was gonna hand over the reins to Harvey Dent.

For the 3rd one, since everything's gone to hell for Batman, the people of the city are against him, and the Joker has likely inspired the freaks to come out...the visuals of the city will probably reflect that.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Thats very good points flickchick,I didnt think of it like that.

 

[Solidus]

I thought the cleaner Gotham in TDK was an intentional choice, like since Batman hit the scene, the city appeared to clean up. It was less obviously dirty, while really it was all still happening (maybe even worse) under the surface, for the same reason that, as the Joker said, the criminal element changed their mode of operation to daylight hours.

It also reflected Batman's emotional state, since at the very beginning when the stage was set, things were supposed to be going well for Batman. His job was "nearly done" and he was gonna hand over the reins to Harvey Dent.

For the 3rd one, since everything's gone to hell for Batman, the people of the city are against him, and the Joker has likely inspired the freaks to come out...the visuals of the city will probably reflect that.

I agree with this. If I'm not mistaken I think some one said this while filming or Wally himself said this. Because it was to represent that Bats felt he cleaned up the city, and in some way he did. But then the festering darkness escalating up to him, "the freaks" is starting to rise. By the end even with the destroyed building where Rachel died is symbolism of this as well. Batman's clean world....is now blown to hell.

But some of these complains I hear I'm sorry to say are from a small percentage of people. A large large large majority of Bat fans don't live in Chicago. So sorry that they use that city, but most people I know see Gotham. I'm sure those that live around or go to Chicago a lot see Chicago but I'm sorry to say that's a small sacrifice to make. I like how Nolan does create the grounded generic city. It worked for TDK. And in BB it was a dump. It worked in its symbolism. So I personally never saw Gotham as a "character-less" city in TDK. It spoke on other levels. To me I say no to Gothic stuff. I like where Nolan has stayed.

Yet I agree with DK, we need some slum like crap holes to have some scenes. I don't know about mud pits, though that may be cool. But have some slum like areas that are a little different and add the hell that Bats has now spiraled down into since he "lost the battle" against Joker.

So I see B3 changing its look, but in terms the symbolism. And in TDK it worked for what it was aiming for.

So yea there needs to be a change, but not because TDK was bad. Just now the tone has changed, and the floodgate has been opened. Now the street will be filled with freaks.

 

[Bats]

I'm from Chicago and loved my city being showcased like that. I'm very glad they didn't make Gotham look comic book-y too. It helped with the believability of the story IMO. Anything detracting from it would not have helped I think.

 

[Batman137]

This was one of the things that was "unsettling" when I watched TDK the first time. In Begins, they set up Gotham as a sort of "dirty" environment. And TDK was an actual american looking city. I think going from soundstage to actual city in two movies wasn't a good choice. Anyone know what I mean?

 

[Solidus]

This was one of the things that was "unsettling" when I watched TDK the first time. In Begins, they set up Gotham as a sort of "dirty" environment. And TDK was an actual american looking city. I think going from soundstage to actual city in two movies wasn't a good choice. Anyone know what I mean?

Ehhh not really. It was a fine choice, because most would not know that. There are many parts in Begins that was filmed in the city, the entire chase sequence to be one.

A lot of TDK was filmed on sound stages in London. So I don't really get what you're going for.

Like I said it was a good choice to me, and clearly a choice of the design team of a more symbolic meaning. Yes the Narrows and the Monorail part was sound stages. But there was a lot of Chicago in it.

Yet if your saying the feeling is different, than yes...that's what this whole thread is about.

And again I just will repeat it was a wise choice and an artistic one at that. And if it does follow going for symbolism, B3 is probably going towards a hellscape dump again. I can't say that for sure, but it very well could.

But as I always say, to eaches own. And I respect your opinion I just don't feel that way at all.

 

[Travesty]

I'm from Chicago and loved my city being showcased like that. I'm very glad they didn't make Gotham look comic book-y too. It helped with the believability of the story IMO. Anything detracting from it would not have helped I think.

Detracting from the believability of a comicbook charter, that should be in a comicbook world?

 

[Solidus]

Detracting from the believability of a comicbook charter, that should be in a comicbook world?

A comic book charter?



I think he means that some times adapting things to film in certain styles are okay at times. And Nolan does go for a grounded appeal. The core of the comics are clearly there. And going his route has helped "for his view" adapt to the big screen.

I get what he is saying, yet still the soul of the comics are still there in full.

 

[The Joker]

I thought the cleaner Gotham in TDK was an intentional choice, like since Batman hit the scene, the city appeared to clean up. It was less obviously dirty, while really it was all still happening (maybe even worse) under the surface, for the same reason that, as the Joker said, the criminal element changed their mode of operation to daylight hours.

It also reflected Batman's emotional state, since at the very beginning when the stage was set, things were supposed to be going well for Batman. His job was "nearly done" and he was gonna hand over the reins to Harvey Dent.

For the 3rd one, since everything's gone to hell for Batman, the people of the city are against him, and the Joker has likely inspired the freaks to come out...the visuals of the city will probably reflect that.

Spot on