Batman Begins "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."

[El Payaso]

Honestly, there was no way Ra's could've survived. You can't just jump out of a train like that, or pull out a grappling gun from nowhere and just fly away. Especially not when you're closing your eyes and seemingly just accepting your fate. We as an audience, or batfans rather, keep thinking that Ra's is alive because we know his character and background. We suspect the possibility of him being able to pull the craziest ninja move and escape from certain doom, or even the possibility of a lazarus pit bringing him back to life. Now, Batman saw a man with little-to-none equipment crash down into a parking garage whereafter an explosion consumed most of that man's body. And who are we to say that Batman didn't check out the wreck afterwards? Sure, the movie fast-forwards, but it's not like the first thing Batman did was to drop down next to Jim and saying, "who's for chinese?", whereafter they both walked, arm-in-arm, towards the setting sun.

Once again, beautifully said.

If the "missing body" issue was relevant in some way, they would have said at least a word about it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Honestly, there was no way Ra's could've survived. You can't just jump out of a train like that, or pull out a grappling gun from nowhere and just fly away. Especially not when you're closing your eyes and seemingly just accepting your fate. We as an audience, or batfans rather, keep thinking that Ra's is alive because we know his character and background. We suspect the possibility of him being able to pull the craziest ninja move and escape from certain doom, or even the possibility of a lazarus pit bringing him back to life. Now, Batman saw a man with little-to-none equipment crash down into a parking garage whereafter an explosion consumed most of that man's body. And who are we to say that Batman didn't check out the wreck afterwards? Sure, the movie fast-forwards, but it's not like the first thing Batman did was to drop down next to Jim and saying, "who's for chinese?", whereafter they both walked, arm-in-arm, towards the setting sun.

How could he have checked the train for a body when it was basically vaporized by the explosion not to mention there are a number of ways the body could have fell out of the train at any time.

 

[Beelze]

How could he have checked the train for a body when it was basically vaporized by the explosion not to mention there are a number of ways the body could have fell out of the train at any time.

Well, if the train was vaporized by the explosion (and we actually don't see how well the train "took it" before the camera cuts) then Ra's was turned into french fries. And please, enlighten me about those numerous ways that the body could've fallen off the train (whatever good that would've done for Ra's, seeing as it's bad enough to jump off train under regular circumstances).

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well, if the train was vaporized by the explosion (and we actually don't see how well the train "took it" before the camera cuts) then Ra's was turned into french fries.

Not if he got out before the explosion

And please, enlighten me about those numerous ways that the body could've fallen off the train (whatever good that would've done for Ra's, seeing as it's bad enough to jump off train under regular circumstances).

Whether Ra's was dead or not his body could have eaisly fallen out of the train, imagine how much someone inside was would get thrown around!!! And considering the back of the train was blown out by Batman and Ra's himself was near the back of the train the it is easy to imagine the body falling out.

 

[Beelze]

There were only two feasible exits from the train (the open end, and the window Batman had smashed before he escaped the train), and reaching any of them, intentionally or not, would be very hard because of how the train was angled (and pretty much impossible given the short time between the moment Batman left him and the moment the train crashed into the parking lot and blew up). Most likely Ra's would just end up at the front of the train car, and his body would not have enough force to break through the window there.

 

[Everyman]

There were only two feasible exits from the train (the open end, and the window Batman had smashed before he escaped the train), and reaching any of them, intentionally or not, would be very hard because of how the train was angled (and pretty much impossible given the short time between the moment Batman left him and the moment the train crashed into the parking lot and blew up). Most likely Ra's would just end up at the front of the train car, and his body would not have enough force to break through the window there.

There is one solution to Ra's problem: movie/comic book magic. In real life, Ra's would be dead. And Batman probably wouldn't have survived either. But in fiction, badguys (or even goodguys) survived more ridiculously unavoidable deaths. It is a commonplace in fiction, especially the comic book kind: when a badguy falls off a cliff, or into the ocean, or is left in a building on fire, or is trapped in a closed room with a bomb about to explose, or is send to the guillotine, he reappears alive and well in a future episode, without even a scratch. In the Blake&Mortimer series, author Edgar P. Jacobs didn't even bother to explain why his recurring badguy, Olrik, managed to survive death, even at some point a nuclear holocaust! The more undefeatable the odds, the more probable the return. The danger is MEANT to be impossible to escape, or to seem impossible to escape.

 

[El Payaso]

This common place is way too common and well worn by now.

I give my money to Nolan's realism.

 

[LexCorp]

How is Batman any different from the ninjas and Ra's if he killed Ra's? That's very simple. He does good. Ra's is planning to destroy the city(killing millions) and Batman is saving the city(killing one). it isn't a hard concept and makes perfect sense.

Plus, do you really think that any jail Batman would have taken Ra's to would contain him? The man is a genious, not to mention a skilled warrior who knows how to become invisible and is a master at escaping.

In the situation that was at hand, batman didn't have a choice. he had to stop the train and he had to save himself. not using this as an excuse, but it seems that batman had to have both arms fully extended in order to make his cape rigid. there was no way he could escape while carrying Ra's. Plus, its hard to believe that a man with Ra's charater would even WANT batman to save him from the crash.

Batman had to do what was necessary at the time to accomplish his goal. Now, if batman had caught Ra's and then threw him off a building to his death then i can understand. but Batman simply stopped the train and escaped. Ra's had to die with the train.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[Everyman]

This common place is way too common and well worn by now.

I give my money to Nolan's realism.

Well, we don't know if Ra's survived or not, do we? Nolan has renewed clich/s and commonplaces in the past, given the genre and the source material it's quite plausible that Ra's cheated death, especially with the type of character he is.

 

[El Payaso]

Well, we don't know if Ra's survived or not, do we?

What do you mean. He was totally crushed as the movie showed. Or have you any hint of the opposite?

 

[Two-Face]

I still don't believe that Ra's is dead.

 

[Everyman]

What do you mean. He was totally crushed as the movie showed. Or have you any hint of the opposite?

If I am not mistaken, we saw the train crashing, we didn't see Ra's Al Ghul being crushed.

 

[iceberg325]

If I am not mistaken, we saw the train crashing, we didn't see Ra's Al Ghul being crushed.

Thats true. In the comic world no one is really ever "dead" lol.

 

[Beelze]

In order to realistically bring back Ra's they would have to say that Neeson's Ra's was another decoy, and then have the real Ra's appear (or yet another decoy). I really liked his performance though, and wouldn't like him to get such treatment. I prefer the "blown to bits" treatment better.

 

[El Payaso]

If I am not mistaken, we saw the train crashing, we didn't see Ra's Al Ghul being crushed.

So maybe the Hindenburg passengers survived too since we didn't see them dying. What about Apollonia, Michael Corleone's wife? We just see the car exploding, maybe she didn't actually die since they didn't show his body being blown up.

When trains crush, people inside die. I didn't create the rule, it's the way it happens.

Thats true. In the comic world no one is really ever "dead"

Well, part of the reason why few people actually respect comics.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I still don't believe that Ra's is dead.

neither do i

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It's mothe****ing Ra's al Ghul.........he aint dead.

 

[El Payaso]

What is left of him barely could fill a thimble.

But comic books are for kids so they can cheat (once again) I suppose.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Comics, for kids? What comics you been reading? THE BATMAN STRIKES, or some ****?

 

[Everyman]

So maybe the Hindenburg passengers survived too since we didn't see them dying. What about Apollonia, Michael Corleone's wife? We just see the car exploding, maybe she didn't actually die since they didn't show his body being blown up.

When trains crush, people inside die. I didn't create the rule, it's the way it happens.



Well, part of the reason why few people actually respect comics.

Oh Christ, the caricature attack again! If some apocryph writers had Pr. Moriarty survived his fall in the Reichenbach Falls,if the Joker survived many different deaths in the comic book, Ra's can survive a bloody train crash. So ordinary people do, sometimes, let alone a being who is semi-immortal. Let's not forget that fiction, even realistic one, has it's share of licence.

 

[El Payaso]

Comics, for kids? What comics you been reading? THE BATMAN STRIKES, or some ****?

I have been using the sarcasm device.

Sure, comic books and movies have the 'licence' to do such things. It is the fact that it ahs been done so many times and always pretending it's a 'whoa, great unpredictable twist' when it is not for decades now which makes it lame and painfully predictable. I was hoping the new franchise would get rid of those weaknesses.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Ah....sorry, my sarcasm radar died out.

I get you. But, I don't think in this case it would be so obvious....especially in what manner they ever decide to bring him back.

The reason alot of comics twists, like this, is so weak...is b/c it's been done a billion times with every character. With this, I don't think it's been done in movies before....so, in that way, it's got the edge, I think.

 

[El Payaso]

Ah....sorry, my sarcasm radar died out.

I get you. But, I don't think in this case it would be so obvious....especially in what manner they ever decide to bring him back.

The reason alot of comics twists, like this, is so weak...is b/c it's been done a billion times with every character. With this, I don't think it's been done in movies before....so, in that way, it's got the edge, I think.

Ok, but they have done with Jason and Freddy Krueger and I think several other horror movies characters. They're dead... no they're not, we must make more money.

Most recently they did with Dafoe/Green Goblin. So there's a precedent.

I hope, as you say, it will be handled with intelligence and not just trying to be 'original' (pun?) or 'shocking'. It's a little late for that.

 

[Everyman]

I have been using the sarcasm device.

Sure, comic books and movies have the 'licence' to do such things. It is the fact that it ahs been done so many times and always pretending it's a 'whoa, great unpredictable twist' when it is not for decades now which makes it lame and painfully predictable. I was hoping the new franchise would get rid of those weaknesses.

So... you are upset that Ra's died, but you don't want him to survive? I don't follow you quite well here. And in superhero movies, so far badguys have died more often than survived. You can use cliches, sometimes, if done well, you can also reinvent a device that became a cliche. Ra's is a badguy susceptible to survive an apparent death: he seems semi-immortal (and in the comics we know he is), he has mysterious past, his organisation has been active for centuries and has worked everywhere around the world. In other words, he is a character that has more to say, and he was proved to be resilient. In a way, he can expected to survive.

 

[Mr.E.Nygma]

Please stop thinking Ducard is not dead! He couldn't possibly survive, Nolan's world folks. Maybe someday the return of Ra's will be because someguy took the light and continued Liam's job, but I can't see him returning in another batfilm. It's mostlikely sad because Liam Neeson is great noboday can say the opposite