Batman Begins "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I didnt want a mindless actionfest, but out of a 3 hour movie, we see hulk like 3 times? Should have been a little more than that. Ill watch it next week, or this weekend and re think my opinion.

Err you definately need to watch the Hulk again, it is not 3 hours, it is 2hrs and 12minutes long (shorter than BB) and the Hulk appears four times, once for almost 30 mins. I recommend everyone who didnt like it watch the Hulk again, many people liked it a lot better second time around.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As far as this discussion goes, i dont think Batman had much of a choice in the situation. To save Ra's, he would have had to put himself in a potentially deadly situation, and he obviously hadnt completed his 'mission' yet, so he felt he had to stay alive to continue protecting Gotham.

Also, he left Ra's virtually unharmed so that he had a chance to escape. Its not like he stabbed or wounded him so that he wouldnt have ANY chance of escaping.

 

[iceberg325]

Err you definately need to watch the Hulk again, it is not 3 hours, it is "hrs and 12minutes long (shorter than BB) and the Hulk appears four times, once for almost 30 mins. I recommend everyone who didnt like it watch the Hulk again, many people liked it a lot better second time around.

Didnt realize it was that short lol. Felt very long lol. I do want to see it again. I was going to buy it but couldnt find it last week. Ill check again this weekend.

Another thing about Ras was, hes the man who trained bruce. Why wouldnt he be able to save himself??

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Didnt realize it was that short lol. Felt very long lol. I do want to see it again. I was going to buy it but couldnt find it last week. Ill check again this weekend.

I think that is just because of the long build up to the first Hulk appearence, it even seemed long to me first time, but the more you watch it, the more you realise that it actually goes quite quick and that a lot of the build up is important to later parts of the movie.

 

[Beelze]

Another thing about Ras was, hes the man who trained bruce. Why wouldnt he be able to save himself??

Because there were no means to do it? He didn't seem to have any useful equipment on his person or in the train.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Because there were no means to do it? He didn't seem to have any useful equipment on his person.

How do you know this? He pulled a gas mask and a sword out of no were earlier on so what to say he never had a grapple gun or whatever in his coat.

 

[spawnjack01]

I hate the fact that Batman gets away with that, but everyone *****es about Daredevil letting Quesada die on the railway with a simular line. They both have the same code of honour.

 

[Beelze]

Batman isn't "getting away with it", as this thread proves.

How do you know this? He pulled a gas mask and a sword out of no were earlier on so what to say he never had a grapple gun or whatever in his coat.

Not the word "seem" in that post of mine that you quoted. Also, Ra's didn't pull a gas mask and a sword out of nowhere (he was always carrying the sword, and the gas mask was probably given to him by one of the LoS members). I don't think he concealed a grapple gun under that suit of his.

Ra's saying, "My fate, however, lies with the rest of Gotham" can be interpreted as him stating his intention to die along with everyone else in Gotham (but that just seems like a dumb move...)

 

[raybia]

And it goes against everything he says he believed about seeking justice, being like his father, and saving lives, even of those people like that criminal in the monastary. And it also isn't too smart to allow such a dangerous person a chance to be free. why'd he let Darkman have that chance?

Yeah, I heard him say that idealistic b.s. too. He was just blowing smoke up Ducard's butt.

Like I said, Batman is green in this movie. A more seasoned Batman, I'm sure, would taken a different approach. Mistakes early in his career like the ones in BB is what enabled him to become the Dark Knight we all know and love.

You cannot make an omelete unless you break a couple of eggs (actually 3 is ideal.)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Batman isn't "getting away with it", as this thread proves.


Not the word "seem" in that post of mine that you quoted. Also, Ra's didn't pull a gas mask and a sword out of nowhere (he was always carrying the sword, and the gas mask was probably given to him by one of the LoS members). I don't think he concealed a grapple gun under that suit of his.

Ra's saying, "My fate, however, lies with the rest of Gotham" can be interpreted as him stating his intention to die along with everyone else in Gotham (but that just seems like a dumb move...)

Well, it seems to me that a man like Ra's would have everything about the operation thought out beforehand, including more than one way of escaping. After all, he had been planning this since before Bruce came to him for training.

 

[Ben Urich]

I hate the fact that Batman gets away with that, but everyone *****es about Daredevil letting Quesada die on the railway with a simular line. They both have the same code of honour.

Daredevil had the means to save Quesada. Batman didn't have the means to save Ra's.

 

[raybia]

Daredevil had the means to save Quesada. Batman didn't have the means to save Ra's.

I don't think Ra's would have let Bruce save him.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Batman planned the train crash. Batman's not supposed to decide who deserves saving and who doesn't. Batman believes in justice.

He planned to stop the train, destroying the tracks was a backup plan- which luckily saved Gotham.

Batman believes in justice... "I'm no executioner."

And, he's not.

blablabablatexttomakepostlongenough

Fine....I'll post in moderation, and make small posts, equaling in more posts. lol.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I hate the fact that Batman gets away with that, but everyone *****es about Daredevil letting Quesada die on the railway with a simular line. They both have the same code of honour.

Well, for one.....nobody cared.

And, second.....the Director's Cut was better....and overall, the film wasn't as good as it should have been. That might be why.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Daredevil had the means to save Quesada. Batman didn't have the means to save Ra's.

I agree.

I don't see how Batman could have saved Ra's.

 

[raybia]

He planned to stop the train, destroying the tracks was a backup plan- which luckily saved Gotham.



And, he's not.



Fine....I'll post in moderation, and make small posts, equaling in more posts. lol.

I have no problem with Batman's actions. He's not a cop and he's not Superman. In terms of Justice and vengence, Batman should be ambiguous.

Batman should always be seen as a vigilante first and hero 2nd in my opinion.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I think he is a hero.

There's this high morality that people assume must be met to be one, for some reason. I don't think saving a terrorist would win any sympathy or anything.

 

[raybia]

Well, I think he is a hero.

There's this high morality that people assume must be met to be one, for some reason. I don't think saving a terrorist would win any sympathy or anything.

I think he is a hero too. But what I mean is that the general population doesn't know.

In fact when you really think about it the citizens of Gotham only know what the media has told them about Batman, and at this point he is probably viewed as a menace and only Gordon knows the truth on how Batman saved Gotham that night from destruction.

He's not perceived as a hero in Gotham's eyes...yet.

 

[El Payaso]

As far as this discussion goes, i dont think Batman had much of a choice in the situation. To save Ra's, he would have had to put himself in a potentially deadly situation, and he obviously hadnt completed his 'mission' yet, so he felt he had to stay alive to continue protecting Gotham.

In fact Batman put himself in danger every time he fights crime on the streets and he will never end his mission.

He could have injuried several people and killed himself and Rachel when she was poisoned but he did what he had to do anyway, so the fact he was in danger doesn't excuse him fpr not helping to save a life.

Also, he left Ra's virtually unharmed so that he had a chance to escape. Its not like he stabbed or wounded him so that he wouldnt have ANY chance of escaping.

He left Ra's on the train without not even saying, 'Hey, Ra's, by the way, my friend gordon is going to stoop the train right now, fly away.' No. Batman just went away and left Ra's to die.

Well, it seems to me that a man like Ra's would have everything about the operation thought out beforehand, including more than one way of escaping. After all, he had been planning this since before Bruce came to him for training.

And that's why he wasn't ready for Batman intervention.

I agree.

I don't see how Batman could have saved Ra's.

Yes, that Batman guy is totally useless saving people from extremely dangerous situations. He sucks at it. I cannot see him grabbing Ra's or using bat-rope or anything to save people.

But at least he can state verbally he don't want to save ceretain people before leaving them to die.

There's this high morality that people assume must be met to be one, for some reason. I don't think saving a terrorist would win any sympathy or anything.

And is Batman doing what he does for simpathy? for the people's applause? Is that how he chooses what to do?

 

[WhiteRat]

One problem there:


There is a difference between killing someone, and not saving them.



No, it's just not the same. Not saving him is not the same as killing him.....negligent homicide would be impossible to say against anyone, anywhere, I think.



Yeah it never ceases to amaze me the lengths the human race goes to in showing their ignorance that they dont know the difference between killing someone and not saving them,that they are two entirely different things.

 

[Phaser]

What most people fail to consider in this particular scenario that it was Ra's himself and not Batman who had planted the seeds of his own demise. Remember when Batman tries to stop the train but Ra's jams the controls? Apparently, Ra's had very much become suicidal in his desperation to stop Batman from thwarting his plan. As soon as the monorail would have reached Wayne Tower, the main hub would have blown up and taken the monorail (as well as some of Wayne Tower) along with it.

Then there's also the question of redemption. Bruce saved Ra's at the monastery and it almost cost him his city and millions of lives. One thing that we can be sure of is that Batman had no intention of killing Ra's. Remember when Batman has Ra's pinned down with the two batarangs aimed at his throat - that's when Ra's says to him "Have you finally learned to do what is necessary?", which was essentially a way of provoking Bruce, challenging his ideals, to which Bruce replies "I won't kill you...".

"...but I don't have to save you."

Technically speaking, Batman simply left Ra's to his own fate that Ra's had doomed himself to.

Now the question is this - if a homicidal maniac like say, the Joker, somehow attempts suicide, should or should not Batman intervene? Would that be justifiable in your view? If yes, how?

 

[spawnjack01]

Daredevil had the means to save Quesada. Batman didn't have the means to save Ra's.

But by saying that he didn't "have to" he implied that it was a concious choice he made not to make an effort. To me that is the same thing as DD did.

 

[spawnjack01]

If he said "I won't kill you, but this time I can't save you" the scene would work better imo.

 

[iceberg325]

In fact Batman put himself in danger every time he fights crime on the streets and he will never end his mission.

He could have injuried several people and killed himself and Rachel when she was poisoned but he did what he had to do anyway, so the fact he was in danger doesn't excuse him fpr not helping to save a life.



He left Ra's on the train without not even saying, 'Hey, Ra's, by the way, my friend gordon is going to stoop the train right now, fly away.' No. Batman just went away and left Ra's to die.



And that's why he wasn't ready for Batman intervention.



Yes, that Batman guy is totally useless saving people from extremely dangerous situations. He sucks at it. I cannot see him grabbing Ra's or using bat-rope or anything to save people.

But at least he can state verbally he don't want to save ceretain people before leaving them to die.



And is Batman doing what he does for simpathy? for the people's applause? Is that how he chooses what to do?

Come on!!!! He sucks at it???? Pffft!!!!!! Thats really funny. Like I said think about it, if he saves Ras just for his own piece of mind then hes selfish. Yeah put the city in more danger just to make urself feel better. What a great hero that would make him. He did the right thing. He didnt kill Ras!!!! Batman chose to turn his back on a terrorist!!! Big frickin deal!!!!!

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Daredevil had the means to save Quesada. Batman didn't have the means to save Ra's.

This i totally agree with, Daredevil's was a much more evil ploy than Batmans. DD could have easily saved him, Batman on the hand would have had difficulty saving Ra's. But they are both great parts in each movie.