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[LadyVader]

Watchyu talking about, Maniac. In regard to action, all we wanted was something that actually made sense, not mutants acting all Godly.

To this day i think my favourite X-men scene is the beginning of X-men, when a young Eric Lensherr nearly rips those gates off their hinges. Man, that was powerful imagery.

 

[britrogue]

Yeah, the opening scenes of X-Men was electric

 

[LastSunrise1981]

If that´s not arrogance I don´t know what it is.
You are arrogant because you consider yourself better than some people, people you don´t even know! You have the nerve to tell me to "educate myself" when you don´t know me, you don´t know about my deep love for comics, which I consider a form of Art. And I´m not only talking about X-Men. I´m talking about Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, "Love & Rockets", band dessiné, Milo Manara, "Little Nemo in Slumberland", Mafalda...
Talk about "education".
I read X-Men. It´s part of my "education". I´m not a X-geek, but I know the characters, know their motivations, their struggles. But I love Wolverine, and I consider him to be above any other X-character. Now, if you have issues with Wolverine fans, if you consider them lesser fans or stupid people who will never accept that Cyclops is a much better character, that´s you problem. The thing is, you´re assuming that because a person loves Wolverine more, said person knows s*** about the X-Men mythos, and that´s prejudice, plain and simple.
And you know what, you consider yourself a PhD in X-Men comics, but I´ve never read in any of your posts here any evidences of that. So maybe my knowledge of the comics is even better than yours. You never proved to me you have more X-Men background, so really, who are you to tell me to educate myself?

I believe you ignore my where I have explained many themes, characters, histories, and concepts of the X-Men comics. I've provided many intelligent posts about the depictions of different characters and the neglectfulness of certain stories.

I have pointed out both inaccuracies and flaws in X1/X2. For example, was I happy that they changed Stryker to a military general? Not really. Even though he was a reverand(spelling?) in the graphic novel, I realized that his attitude and his beliefs were the same in X2 as they were in the book.

Was I happy that they didn't explore more of the Project Wideawake Program for the Sentinels? That is one of my main complaints about the trilogy as a whole. Was I happy that they didn't explore Storm's African past and how she was worshipped as a Goddess? I was very disappointed that they never explored the past of Mystique and Nightcrawler, with Mystique being his mother.

I know more than you think and if you know more than me, then so be it. But as I said, your view is more biased towards Logan and I haven't seen you display any comic knowledge in any of your posts either. So before you accuse me of being a fake superhero/X-Men fan, I suggest you read all of my posts before you accuse me.

I have read every single X-Men, Spider-Man, Punisher, Daredevil, Hellblazer, Preacher, and etc, that there is to read. I know my comic book history and I know that some changes involving certain themes, concepts, and stories were changed in order to help further the story. But that doesn't mean I can't speak out on the overexposure of Wolverine.

I was quite disappointed that they didn't explore more of his Weapon X history with Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, Silver Fox, Maverick, Omega Red, and so forth. But X1/X2 were so great that the changes made didn't affect the quality.

 

[chaseter]

The opening of X1 was fantastic. Singer hit a high note with that scene and it is one of the best scenes in the whole trilogy. He captured so much of every human emotion young Erik was thinking at the time and how that would shape up the villian Magneto. That is the problem with these movies...especially X3...is that there are too many characters and not enough background. In X3, we could have gotten two whole movies from that one 1:30 movie. That is why it felt rushed, that is why the story was packed in to tight, that is why it lacked quality. X2 has quiet a bit of characters but Stryker played by Cox was a fantastic combination. With the Cure and Jean being the main enemies in X3...why weren't they given background? I know the answer but I want discussion. The cure and Worthington Sr. as well as Angel should have had at least 20-30 more minutes of scenes and background. Testing on other mutants to show the severity of Worthington Sr.'s attitudes towards his son's abnormality would have been great. It just needed more explanation.

Now to Jean/Phoenix. This could have commanded its own movie by itself. But for sh**s and giggles, lets talk about it. Jean had 3 minutes of background...that is it. Magneto in X1 and X2 always asserted his opinions and talked with Xavier and other mutants to show his nature and his attitudes and beliefs. Jean said "GET OUT OF MY HEAD", "LOGAN!", and "SCOTT", and "I DON'T KNOW, I CANT CONTROL IT NOW" and "KILL ME." She didn't talk to Storm, she didn't talk to her freaking husband for God's sake(for more than 5 minutes), she only yelled at the professor, and talked to no one else. How are we suppose to understand and sympathize or loathe Jean or the Dark Phoenix when we get no background or dialogue?

Lastly, the lead members of Magneto's new brotherhood had terrible fight or no fight scenes and no depth. Juggernaut was my biggest dissapointment. That character could have went very far in this movie but was traded out for two punches at Wolverine. Who doesn't think Juggernaut can't beat the hell out of tiny Wolverine? Juggernaut should have developed an adversary...Colossus if I sow may suggest, and spend his time fighting with him. Storm had an adversary in Callisto so why couldn't Colossus fight it out with the most major member of Magneto's brotherhood? Well, my hands are tired...peace.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Now to Jean/Phoenix. This could have commanded its own movie by itself. But for sh**s and giggles, lets talk about it. Jean had 3 minutes of background...that is it. Magneto in X1 and X2 always asserted his opinions and talked with Xavier and other mutants to show his nature and his attitudes and beliefs. Jean said "GET OUT OF MY HEAD", "LOGAN!", and "SCOTT", and "I DON'T KNOW, I CANT CONTROL IT NOW" and "KILL ME." She didn't talk to Storm, she didn't talk to her freaking husband for God's sake(for more than 5 minutes), she only yelled at the professor, and talked to no one else. How are we suppose to understand and sympathize or loathe Jean or the Dark Phoenix when we get no background or dialogue?

I thought in was now canon that movieverse Jean (Cyclops, too) were in X3 for sh**s and giggles anyway.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

And you know what, you consider yourself a PhD in X-Men comics, but I´ve never read in any of your posts here any evidences of that. So maybe my knowledge of the comics is even better than yours. You never proved to me you have more X-Men background, so really, who are you to tell me to educate myself?

Oh dear.

Look, here's another non-threatening way to look at it.

The three most important X-Men are Xavier, Cyclops and Storm. Hands down. It's not even a fair fight or anything. To use a really cheap analogy, Chuck is the chess player while Cyke and 'Ro are King and Queen. Have been for the past, what, 20-25 years? Make that 40 for Chuck and Cyke.

This isn't about whether they're the most popular, my fav, the best at kicking a$$ or even the one people can relate to the most. The fact that those three have been the core of the X-Men universe as leaders and torchbearers of the dream is pretty much fact.

And yet they're arguably the three that get screwed the worst in the X-movies. Cause Fox wanted us to relate to Wolvie.

I love comicverse Logan. Still, as popular as he is, he never was more than a glorified supporting character. Make that supporting muscle. I don't recall him carrying the dream on his shoulders or anything. And that's pretty much what he's doing in X3.

THAT'S what ticks us off. Geez.

 

[gambitfire]

^ I agree with all of that.

But i for one considered Jean and Beast torch bearers as well. I stopped doing so for Beast after the cure story.


They where not leaders but they have stood firmly for Xavier's dream.

On Cykes note here something i posted a while back, that should of been in X2 since it was adapted from this story. Something i really love about Cyke.

 

[gambitfire]

^The next panel has Cyke and Storm huggin, in a brother and sister manner.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

^ I agree with all of that. But i for one considered Jean and Beast torch bearers as well. I stopped doing so for Beast after the cure story.

They where not leaders but they have stood firmly for Xavier's dream.

Well, yeah, of course they did, but Chuck, Cyke and Storm definitely have the edge overall.

I might be a bit biaised against the whole 'Jean was the heart and soul of X-Men' thingy, though. I mean, it's not as if she did that much without the PF while she was alive. Oooh, she's the woman. She has to be the heart and soul. Talk about profiling... *shrugs* t:

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I see. I thought you meant the earlier part when she gestured as though creating a wind before he flung her up on to the balcony area with his tongue. Still, 10-20 seconds is a long time when a car is falling on your head.




I meant creating one while inside the jet. She can do that, as she did when she created tornadoes while flying the plane.





Right. Well, i was pointing out that her inaction at the end of X2 is similar to her inaction at the end of X3, in that it was done to allow others to have their moment. Although I agree her part in the Alcatraz scenes could have been better. Let's hope we get a better script next time, if there is a next time - we agree on that, I am sure.

What makes me laugh more than anything is that the same haters who moan about the amount of action, number of explosions and the amount of Storm/Halle screentime in X3 are the same ones who want Magneto to go around exploding steel-framed buildings and who want Storm to go round firing lightning and windstorms even more than we already saw!

I think what we all wanted was for the action to make sense and have meaning, IMO it didnt, Magneto collapsing the building would have shown he was a no nonsense person, who would do anything to see his goal achieved, what he did in X3 showed to be a bit dumb and a show off IMO. Were as in X1/X2 and TAS he wasnt really like that.

Storm came accross as a bit useless to me in X3, I mean, her power is potentially more powerful than Magneto's, and he was flaunting his power all movie while Storm just basically shot lighting and cleared away or created fog. That was poor IMO.

 

[X-Maniac]

I think what we all wanted was for the action to make sense and have meaning, IMO it didnt, Magneto collapsing the building would have shown he was a no nonsense person, who would do anything to see his goal achieved, what he did in X3 showed to be a bit dumb and a show off IMO. Were as in X1/X2 and TAS he wasnt really like that.

Storm came accross as a bit useless to me in X3, I mean, her power is potentially more powerful than Magneto's, and he was flaunting his power all movie while Storm just basically shot lighting and cleared away or created fog. That was poor IMO.

Well, Magneto has always been a bit of a 'show off' - he didn't NEED to tear open the train to get inside, and he didn't NEED to throw two police cars in the air outside. He's always flaunted his power. And i think showing he has the power to crumble buildings (I'm guessing most modern buildings are steel-framed? some must be timber though) is going to leave people asking why he doesn't crumble buildings all over the place. These people have to have some limits.

As for Storm, well she's never been shown at the power levels of the comic version. Creating tornadoes while flying the X-jet was the most powerful thing she has done, and that defied logic (working the jet controls at the same time as creating tornadoes) and was a significant power upgrade from X1. I guess they never made her into a hurricane-wielding weatherwitch in X3 because they wanted to show Magneto's powers and Phoenix's powers as being more terrifying and on a larger scale. For Storm fans, that was a shame, especially as Storm's flash flood sequence was cut.
Yes, I would have loved a diva showdown between Storm and Phoenix, I'd have liked to see Storm fire lightning at Magneto and him deflect it, I'd love to see some different power uses we hadn't seen before (except the cut flashflood scene WAS different) but we don't get everything.

There are always logic gaps and conveniences in these movies.

For instance, in SR, there is no way Lex Luthor would get immediate access to the fortune of an elderly woman. He's the world's biggest criminal mind, there would be questions asked by the authorities over her will; and her family who were outside the room would sue for the fortune and it would be frozen during years of legal arguments (as in the Anna Nicole Smith case). Also, the power company who told Lois the source of the EM surge would be at the house investigating and discovering the crystal mass grown in the trainset. We have to jump over these gaps to enjoy the movie.

There's a strange logic gap in X2 that bugs me every time. 'Dark Cerebro' is running with Xavier connected to it, and Magneto manages to halt it (the novelisation says he sends waves of magnetic force to stop the machine...and you can see rippling from his hands as he holds them over the door). He stops Cerebro, realigns it to target humans and leaves. Then the X-Men arrive - Cyclops wants to blast the door but is told that because Charles is connected to Cerebro he cannot do so. Well, why can't a) Jean telekinetically switch off the machine just as Magneto magnetically switched it off; b) why can't Storm use the same electrical storm/interference she used to disrupt the spillway controls to switch off Cerebro; c) why don't they turn the power off using the generators outside Cerebro which power it, the same generators in the room where Cyclops fought Jean.

Also the film does not explain why Nightcrawler decides to tag along right till the end, why Jean and Storm show no concern for their pupils at the mansion who were caught in the raid, and why the X-Men so easily agree to take along Magneto and Mystique (especially after the events of X1) and join forces. Now, there are answers to those questions if you think and fill in the gaps, but they were never given in the movie and they were fairly common criticisms of the movie at the time of its release. Magneto and Mystique joined the X-Men with the same casual ease with which Juggernaut and Multiple Man joined the Brotherhood - in each case one side was freed or rescued, in each case a favour was owed for that and a mutual cause was the implicit reason for working together.

I agree that X3 was a different approach to the approach Singer gave us, but then that should not need to even be stated, as Singer was not in any way involved. You have to apply some understanding of what they did do in X3 rather than hating them for not being Bryan Singer, something which they will never be.

 

[BMM]

Well, Magneto has always been a bit of a 'show off' - he didn't NEED to tear open the train to get inside, and he didn't NEED to throw two police cars in the air outside. He's always flaunted his power. And i think showing he has the power to crumble buildings (I'm guessing most modern buildings are steel-framed? some must be timber though) is going to leave people asking why he doesn't crumble buildings all over the place. These people have to have some limits.

As for Storm, well she's never been shown at the power levels of the comic version. Creating tornadoes while flying the X-jet was the most powerful thing she has done, and that defied logic (working the jet controls at the same time as creating tornadoes) and was a significant power upgrade from X1.

Wait... What? I can see where a woman who controls the weather might be a leap in logic, but, within the context of such a world, how is creating tornados while flying the X-Jet defying logic? Is that not the equivalent of mutant multitasking for lack of a better phrase? How does that defy logic any more than you driving your car while doing something else at the same time?

 

[kg576094]

The military "tactics" that Magneto used in Alcatraz is what is termed as the "Human wave" attack. According to wikipedia, it's one of the most primitive battle tactic used by infantry prior to the development of modern skirmisher tactics and have generally not been favored by military strategist since the Napoleonic ages, because casualty rate is generally enormous and often associated with mass armies of untrained & low quality soldiers with no other alternatives like missile firepower or airstrike. The last armies to feature such an old attack style in this modern era included the Taliban and Saddam Hussein's armies! :Rolleyes: So our Magneto can now go down in history as the next old fool to employ such a primitive battle tactic with the same-ole expected disastrous results. What's worse is that he lost an army trying to kill one small kid, when a hit-and-run tactics should have worked so much more effective and he could then proceed to use his army for a meaningful purpose like for instance invading and occupying the White House (which should have been his ultimate objective). The only reason I can find as to why Magneto used such a wasteful tactic is because I suspect the Great military strategist behind Mageto is none other than Brett Ratner.

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

Not to change topic here, but I really had to get this off my chest. One thing that really irks me about this film, is the way some of the actors were promoting it. The way, Hugh especially, Halle, even Patrick Stewart were all saying they thought it was the best script of the three. How on earth could that be?!? Was it the empty, meaningless one liners that littered the film, was it the mindless action? What did they mean, if they actually believed it, that it was the best script. This thought only helps me to imagine Fox Executives telling the headliners to really inflate this films huge head...it only helps me to imagine Hugh as a huge tool.

 

[WorthyStevens]

Well, I can tell you Hugh probably liked it the best since he got to be the savior and the hero. Once again. Cyclops and Xavier were pushed out of the way, but whatever. As long as it Fox's meal ticket is pleased, screw everyone else.

 

[Theweepeople]

The military "tactics" that Magneto used in Alcatraz is what is termed as the "Human wave" attack. According to wikipedia, it's one of the most primitive battle tactic used by infantry prior to the development of modern skirmisher tactics and have generally not been favored by military strategist since the Napoleonic ages, because casualty rate is generally enormous and often associated with mass armies of untrained & low quality soldiers with no other alternatives like missile firepower or airstrike. The last armies to feature such an old attack style in this modern era included the Taliban and Saddam Hussein's armies! :Rolleyes: So our Magneto can now go down in history as the next old fool to employ such a primitive battle tactic with the same-ole expected disastrous results. What's worse is that he lost an army trying to kill one small kid, when a hit-and-run tactics should have worked so much more effective and he could then proceed to use his army for a meaningful purpose like for instance invading and occupying the White House (which should have been his ultimate objective). The only reason I can find as to why Magneto used such a wasteful tactic is because I suspect the Great military strategist behind Mageto is none other than Brett Ratner.

Nice find. This confirms what I've been saying about Magneto's horrid plans since May of 2006. I guess the only thing left to debate about the "Magneto horrible strategy at Al-catraz controversy" is what caused him to act this way. Horrible writing and bad filmmaking or did the writers intend for Magneto to suffer from dementia?

 

[Theweepeople]

Not to change topic here, but I really had to get this off my chest. One thing that really irks me about this film, is the way some of the actors were promoting it. The way, Hugh especially, Halle, even Patrick Stewart were all saying they thought it was the best script of the three. How on earth could that be?!? Was it the empty, meaningless one liners that littered the film, was it the mindless action? What did they mean, if they actually believed it, that it was the best script. This thought only helps me to imagine Fox Executives telling the headliners to really inflate this films huge head...it only helps me to imagine Hugh as a huge tool.

I never believed anything Patrick Stewart said after he commented on the last Star Trek movie being a masterpiece. Star Trek 10 broke the trend of being the only bad even numbered Star Trek film.

 

[Theweepeople]

Really? You must have a stroke every time you hear an explosion in outer space in movies like Star Wars or Star Trek, knowing how there is no sound in the vacuum of space. You must have apoplexy when time travellers don't go back in time far enough to actually stop the event they are trying to erase (Terminator). You must be virtually comatose when aliens speak perfect American English in space movies and when their planets have perfect earth gravity and earth atmosphere. Oh the horror of it all! How shocking! How terrible! How come earth's greatest criminal was easily able to get away with swindling cash from a widow in Superman Returns without repercussions or without her living family contesting the will? How come the power company didn't investigate the source of the EM pulse in SR and discover the crystals in that house? How can James Bond survive uninjured in Casino Royale after two-storey leaps from cranes and car crashes with multiple rolling? How come....and why didn't...and why did.... And it goes on and on. You must be on medication to deal with all this.

I have a problem with films that break rules that were previously established:

In Star Wars and Star Trek the motion picture the rule of soundwaves being present in space was established. This rule was never broken during those series.

In Terminator 1 the rule for the possibility of time travel was established and this rule was never broken during the series. This was a horrible example for whatever you are trying to prove.

The Superman Returns example is a horrible example since this nitpick has nothing to do with science. Overall I would like to read the book to see how that part of the storyline developed before I make a judgement. An explanation for how Luther successfully swindled money away would have made a movie that was at already 15 minutes too long 20 minutes longer!!!

Since when did James Bond become science fiction? I have never taken action flicks as seriously as science fiction movies. James Bond is and will always be popcorn flick movies for me. They are enjoyable popcorn flicks but, they are what they are. I enjoy action movie series like Die Hard and Leather Weapon because I have a different mindset when I watch them.

 

[LadyVader]

Not to change topic here, but I really had to get this off my chest. One thing that really irks me about this film, is the way some of the actors were promoting it. The way, Hugh especially, Halle, even Patrick Stewart were all saying they thought it was the best script of the three. How on earth could that be?!? Was it the empty, meaningless one liners that littered the film, was it the mindless action? What did they mean, if they actually believed it, that it was the best script. This thought only helps me to imagine Fox Executives telling the headliners to really inflate this films huge head...it only helps me to imagine Hugh as a huge tool.

That's the way promotion is done. You'll never find an actor saying about a sequel: "It's not as good as the other one" or even "it's ok". The sequel is always "better, bigger, some stuff you've never seen before, stuff that will blow your mind".

 

[X-Maniac]

Wait... What? I can see where a woman who controls the weather might be a leap in logic, but, within the context of such a world, how is creating tornados while flying the X-Jet defying logic? Is that not the equivalent of mutant multitasking for lack of a better phrase? How does that defy logic any more than you driving your car while doing something else at the same time?

Well, her powers were - in the comics - said to work through electrical energies. She draws electrical energy from the earth to alter the balance of energy in the atmosphere and disrupt weather patterns to create the weather she wants - this is a feasible piece of pseudo-science as the atmosphere and earth do indeed form a giant circuit. When using her powers and channelling this energy, she is electrically charged and this electrostatic interference is what prevents those with psi-powers from attacking her mind. For an electrically-charged person to be touching, or to be very close to, sensitive plane control systems does seem somewhat questionable.

In the expanded novelisation for X2, they account for this and Jean switches off all the control panels next to Storm.

In the movies we have only seen Storm with an obvious electrical charge when she brought down lightning in X1 on to Sabretooth and Toad - BUT since Storm did NOT succumb to Jason's mind-control in X2, she might well have been electrically charged then and this was preventing him attacking her mind. The novelisation does state that this is what happened. I guess it could also be argued that Jason was too busy focusing on Xavier's mind to attack Storm as well? Jason, in the guise of the little girl, merely says to Storm 'I've got my eye on you'... It's all a bit vague!

 

[X-Maniac]

The military "tactics" that Magneto used in Alcatraz is what is termed as the "Human wave" attack. According to wikipedia, it's one of the most primitive battle tactic used by infantry prior to the development of modern skirmisher tactics and have generally not been favored by military strategist since the Napoleonic ages, because casualty rate is generally enormous and often associated with mass armies of untrained & low quality soldiers with no other alternatives like missile firepower or airstrike. The last armies to feature such an old attack style in this modern era included the Taliban and Saddam Hussein's armies! :Rolleyes: So our Magneto can now go down in history as the next old fool to employ such a primitive battle tactic with the same-ole expected disastrous results. What's worse is that he lost an army trying to kill one small kid, when a hit-and-run tactics should have worked so much more effective and he could then proceed to use his army for a meaningful purpose like for instance invading and occupying the White House (which should have been his ultimate objective). The only reason I can find as to why Magneto used such a wasteful tactic is because I suspect the Great military strategist behind Mageto is none other than Brett Ratner.

Interesting. Magneto's army does qualify though as one of these 'mass armies of untrained and low-quality soldiers.' The mutants gathered by Magneto were NOT trained soldiers.

It's possible the idea was to create a visual that is similar to the X-Men and Brotherhood charging at each other at the start of the 90s cartoon, and similar to the charging armies in Narnia and LoTR. There is something very visual about seeing that kind of battle.

This was always going to be this kind of charging battle. You can see that on the trailer when the X-Men are stood in a line.

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

That's the way promotion is done. You'll never find an actor saying about a sequel: "It's not as good as the other one" or even "it's ok". The sequel is always "better, bigger, some stuff you've never seen before, stuff that will blow your mind".

I understand that, thank you, but I've never experienced it quite like this, when it's being shoved down the throat, and made apparent that this is better than the original...I don't think there have been other promotions that it's to the degree that X3's actors achieved.

 

[Jan Irisi]

I understand that, thank you, but I've never experienced it quite like this, when it's being shoved down the throat, and made apparent that this is better than the original...I don't think there have been other promotions that it's to the degree that X3's actors achieved.

Sure there have been. You just haven't paid that much attention to them. It happens all the time. Those actors who promoted Poseidon passed on it was far better than the original, that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc. It really does happen all the time. That's why actors go on all those tv programs to promote their movies, telling us that we will never see another film quite like it, it will move us like we've never been moved before, we will laugh like we've never laughed before. Yadayadayada.

 

[CapBeerCino]

One thing that really irks me about this film, is the way some of the actors were promoting it. The way, Hugh especially, Halle, even Patrick Stewart were all saying they thought it was the best script of the three.

Hugh and Halle - I can undestand why. Patrick I don't get. (cause other actors (James, Famke, Anna) didn't sound as enthusiastic.) Anyway, I feel the same way. This is kind of irking...

 

[La_She-Beast]

Patrick and Kelsey might've thought "this movie is ****" over the movie process and how everything was coming out ¬¬ Kelsey was actually gigling in about every interview lol