Superman Returns In SR, Who is more heroic- SUperman or...

[mego joe]

You choose. Give reasons if you'd like.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'd have to say Superman, Richard just does what any caring Father/Husband would by saving Lois and Jason. And although he helps save Superman, he wouldnt have gone back if Lois hadnt of convinced him. Superman saves countless people he doesnt know all throughout the movie so i'd say Superman.

 

[Spoarz™]

^ I agree, I also vote Superman.

 

[superbaby]

You choose. Give reasons if you'd like.

what you wanna tell actually?

 

[Brainiac 2009]

Richard White didnt die for our sins.

Superman = Jeebus.


Besides Superman was ready to sacrifice his life to save humanity after saying goodbye to Lois. It doesnt get more heroic than the Man of Steel.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Richard helps his family.

Superman helps everybody.

 

[bigtizzle]

Supes fo' sho!

 

[CyclopsX81]

Id actually have to say Richard. Superman may save countless people and do a bunch of daring things day after day, but all of these things require minimal effort for him and he puts himself in no danger while doing them. Hes just kinda going through the motions.

Richard actually put his life on the line and almost died trying to rescue his wife and son.

 

[LadyVader]

Both of them are equally heroic. Richard turns his plane around, heading back into danger, to help Superman.

Superman, after barely escaping with his life, goes back to NK and almost dies after lifting it into space.

They both place their lives in danger, and the argument that Richard is more heroic because he's only human doesn't count because Superman knows he could die but he goes back to New Krypton anyway.

 

[mego joe]

what you wanna tell actually?

The thing that stood out to me the most was near the end when Richard has to decide if he's going to let Jason go down to the hospital and see Superman. By this point I think RIchard suspects Jason may be Superman's kid and that Lois is still harboring feelings for SUperman.

I felt that Richard taking them to the hospital and taking the chance that this could be it for him and Lois was the most heroic and truly selfless thing in the movie. He realizes this may be the only chance Jason has to see his biological father if Superman dies. He also knows that if Superman pulls through he could lose Lois to Superman.

I felt this scene contrasted greatly to the beginning of the movie where we find out that SUperman can't tell Lois he is leaving b/c he is afraid of how much it might hurt and that he is only focussed on his own feelings where as Richard in a similar situation puts the feelings of the people he loves before his own. That is such a contrasts of scenes, that I felt that Richard's character was certainly stronger and more heroic because of it.

I also agree as another poster puts it that Richard risks more and his actions to go back and save Superman require more effort than anything SUperman has to do.

BTW, why does SUperman have to have someone else save his bacon in the movies? WHy can't he just find a way out for himself?

 

[LadyVader]

The thing that stood out to me the most was near the end when Richard has to decide if he's going to let Jason go down to the hospital and see Superman. By this point I think RIchard suspects Jason may be Superman's kid and that Lois is still harboring feelings for SUperman.

I felt that Richard taking them to the hospital and taking the chance that this could be it for him and Lois was the most heroic and truly selfless thing in the movie. He realizes this may be the only chance Jason has to see his biological father if Superman dies. He also knows that if Superman pulls through he could lose Lois to Superman.

I felt this scene contrasted greatly to the beginning of the movie where we find out that SUperman can't tell Lois he is leaving b/c he is afraid of how much it might hurt and that he is only focussed on his own feelings where as Richard in a similar situation puts the feelings of the people he loves before his own. That is such a contrasts of scenes, that I felt that Richard's character was certainly stronger and more heroic because of it.

I don't think that Richard letting Lois go to Superman is heroic, it's just goes to show what difference in upbringing he had compared to Clark. Richard is not stronger morally or psychologically, he is just a normal guy who grew up in a normal environment and probably has better social skills then Clark Kent/Superman.
As such he has a better understanding of how relationships work. He outright asks Lois if she's still in love with Superman because he knows those kind of feelings would put a strain on their relationship, if it hasn't already. Clark tells his mom that it's not easy being who he us, keeping secrets.
This undoubtedly affected his childhood making it hard for him to have long lasting relationships, platonic and otherwise. So when the time came to leave, he didn't really know what to do, how to act. It's not just that he was afraid.


I also agree as another poster puts it that Richard risks more and his actions to go back and save Superman require more effort than anything SUperman has to do.
Being a superhero means to me putting your life in danger for people whom you've never met and probably never will. When Superman lifts NK he is doing for everybody in the world, not just the people he cares about.

BTW, why does SUperman have to have someone else save his bacon in the movies? WHy can't he just find a way out for himself?
To increase the drama, silly. All heroes have weaknesses and it would be equally silly for villains not to take advantage of them, But in this particular movie we were supposed to see Superman fall. Be at his weakest, have him need somebodyso that afterwards he can pick himself up.

t:

 

[Kid_Kaos]

Depends on what you call a hero. Everthing that happend to Supes in SR was caused by himself! Like the F4 movie stupidly did that the same way when the Thing caused the big accident only so they could rescue the people to become "heroes". They just cleaned up their own mess. If anything THEY are the threat until Doom shows up.

Superman just left, he knew what Luthor knew about him and the FoS and what he was capable of and even in prison would have gotten at Supes. AND: The FoS is presented as a threat in the Donnerverse because ANY human can just go up there and enter it! If it was at least underground like in the TAS or had like a ... DOOR ... but that way it was inevitable that someday something would happen. Hell, you could just google it to get the coordinates!
Everything that happens in SR is Superman's fault resp. caused by him! Sorry, but i don't see anything heroic in cleaning up the mess you caused yourself.

Richard on the other hand is a human, without any powers and still goes up there by himself to save his woman and kid. I wouldn't call that necessarily heroic either, in some way it is considering the circumstances, but he doesn't save anyone else.

So I go with "NEITHER" and don't vote.

In the end it's just another flaw you have to accept, like the "heroic" introduction of the kid. He could have lifted the boat to save them from drowning, THAT'd be heroic.

 

[LadyVader]

Huh?
Everything that happens in Superman Returns is Lex Luthor's fault because he's an evil, power hungry sonava*****. Superman is not to blame, not even because he left the Fortress unguarded because he was quite sure Lex Luthor would be in jail.
Those who say it's Superman's fault Lex luthor is not in jail because he was called as witness are also wrong. Superman is not an american citizen. He doesn't even have a birth record. No id. Legally, Superman does not exist. If the prosecution based their entire case on the testimony of one hypothetical witness, then it was a bad case to begin with.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Huh?
Everything that happens in Superman Returns is Lex Luthor's fault because he's an evil, power hungry sonava*****. Superman is not to blame, not even because he left the Fortress unguarded because he was quite sure Lex Luthor would be in jail.
Those who say it's Superman's fault Lex luthor is not in jail because he was called as witness are also wrong. Superman is not an american citizen. He doesn't even have a birth record. No id. Legally, Superman does not exist. If the prosecution based their entire case on the testimony of one hypothetical witness, then it was a bad case to begin with.

 

[GreenKToo]

supes.he went back thinking he was gonna die.not sure if i could do that..

 

[Dr. Fate]

I'd have to say Richard is the more heroic of the two. At least he doesn't go around spying on people.

 

[Kid_Kaos]

... If the prosecution based their entire case on the testimony of one hypothetical witness, then it was a bad case to begin with.

*rofl* Watch the scene with Clark, Jimmy & Lois in Perry's office.
Jimmy says something like this: "Apparently, Superman wasn't there to testify, so ... they had to let him go."

Even though Luthor was in prison, it was only a rather short period because Supes didn't testify.

Luthor may be the evil guy to use the crystals in a wrong way, but guess who was it to provide him with them in the first place???
Was it really too hard to just shut the place down or secure the crystals somewhere else?

btw: Thank you for pointing out another plothole! This movie gets better and better with every day. t:

 

[LadyVader]

*rofl* Watch the scene with Clark, Jimmy & Lois in Perry's office.
Jimmy says something like this: "Apparently, Superman wasn't there to testify, so ... they had to let him go."

Well then I don't know how the judicial american system works, short of what I see on TV, but a prosecution case rarely consists of only one testimony. And the nature of lex's acts made it quite an important case so there were plenty of people to testify against him. There is always the possibility of bribing or foul play.

Even though Luthor was in prison, it was only a rather short period because Supes didn't testify.

Luthor may be the evil guy to use the crystals in a wrong way, but guess who was it to provide him with them in the first place???
Was it really too hard to just shut the place down or secure the crystals somewhere else?

How can you shut down a place made of crystals? Secure them were? He couldn't give them to Ma Kent, that would put HER in danger. He couldn't give them to someone else. And he couldn't let them unguarded in the jungle either. There was nothing he could do short of putting them on the moon maybe, but as you can see his return wasn't exactly smooth space sailing, so i doubt on his way back he could've stopped by the moon and pick up his stuff.

btw: Thank you for pointing out another plothole! This movie gets better and better with every day. t:

It's not a plothole, it is merely proving that Superman had no obligation to stick around to testify against Lex Luthor. Maybe an exception would have been made, but obviously he trusted the system would work. The system didn't work, but it's not Superman's fault.

 

[AgentPat]

This is an interesting line of discussion, albeit somewhat off topic to the original thread.

Hypothetically, Superman may not be citizen of the US, but he would have to abide by the country's laws. He doesn't have "diplomatic immunity." And while HE may not have done anything wrong intentionally, there is the matter of negligence and collateral damage. I laugh when people bring up the DP globe on the car thing. It's funny 'cause it's kind of true. How about when Supes flies through buildings breaking walls? In this sue-happy world, that might actually be a legally prosecutable offense.

There's also the matter of negligence. If you own a gun (for example), you are legally (and morally) required to keep it "safe." That means, you don't leave it loaded on your kitchen table so your six year old can find it and shoot his little sister. Don't laugh. That **** happens. Now Superman has some pretty destructive technology in the form of alien crystals that he just left out in the open at the FOS. He *knew* he was leaving. That was pretty negligent of him, especially considering he *could* have just flown them to the moon temporarily to keep them safe. Think about it. How difficult would it have been for him to batten down the hatches before his little sojourn?

And finally, there's a LOT of court cases - big ones, in fact - that hinge on ONE person's testimony. It all depends on their cred. I'm no lawyer, but in the case of Superman as the star witness, I don't think Lex would have gotten off even if he had the Dream Team defending him.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Richard White was the only likable character in this movie.

Superman was a nitwit in this movie. He went to look for a Planet that his infinitely intelligent father told him was destroyed, based on shoddy evidence. He left town without telling anyone including the alleged "love of his life", and then came back expecting to be treated like he was Jesus Christ (and ironically enough the dopey people in the film did treat him that way.) And dont even get me started on how he stalked Lois, either. I didnt find him "heroic" at all.

 

[LadyVader]

This is an interesting line of discussion, albeit somewhat off topic to the original thread.

Hypothetically, Superman may not be citizen of the US, but he would have to abide by the country's laws. He doesn't have "diplomatic immunity." And while HE may not have done anything wrong intentionally, there is the matter of negligence and collateral damage. I laugh when people bring up the DP globe on the car thing. It's funny 'cause it's kind of true. How about when Supes flies through buildings breaking walls? In this sue-happy world, that might actually be a legally prosecutable offense.

There's also the matter of negligence. If you own a gun (for example), you are legally (and morally) required to keep it "safe." That means, you don't leave it loaded on your kitchen table so your six year old can find it and shoot his little sister. Don't laugh. That **** happens. Now Superman has some pretty destructive technology in the form of alien crystals that he just left out in the open at the FOS. He *knew* he was leaving. That was pretty negligent of him, especially considering he *could* have just flown them to the moon temporarily to keep them safe. Think about it. How difficult would it have been for him to batten down the hatches before his little sojourn?

I've already explained that he COULDN'T have left them on the moon because his ship crash landed. What use would be having crystals on the moon if you can't get off the moon. Why are the crystals weapons? They are not meant to be weapons, they are vessels of technology that is not meant to be destructive.That's like saying if I live a spoon around and a person grabs that spoon and uses it to kills somebody it's my fault. Lex's scheme to make a new continent was entirely his idea.

And finally, there's a LOT of court cases - big ones, in fact - that hinge on ONE person's testimony. It all depends on their cred. I'm no lawyer, but in the case of Superman as the star witness, I don't think Lex would have gotten off even if he had the Dream Team defending him.

By the nature of Lex's offences I doubt they only had one testimony to throw him in jail by. And say they would call Superman to court. How would Superman prove that he is in fact Superman. Could be just a lookalike in a suit. If he doesn't have powers, well... I'm sick today. I don't know, but I bet you do need some sort of identification when called to court. It never happened to me but it makes sense that I would have to prove that I am indeed the person called to court.

 

[AgentPat]

I've already explained that he COULDN'T have left them on the moon because his ship crash landed.

Huh? What's that have to do with anything? He didn't need them for the journey, and he had no idea he was going to crash on the way back.

Then again... that whole premise is just dumb to begin with (IMHO) because they left more on the cutting room floor than what actually made it to print. We don't know what Superman knew and what he didn't, so you could argue just about anything, I suppose.

What use would be having crystals on the moon if you can't get off the moon.

Well, lets see. You're Superman. You fly the crystals to the moon. Leave 'em where you can find them again. Fly back to Earth. Get on your little space ship and take your five year journey. Come back to Earth. Have a sandwich. Fly back to the moon. Retrieve your valuables. Fly back to earth. Get your job back. Pine for Lois. Done.

So where's the problem?

Why are the crystals weapons? They are not meant to be weapons, they are vessels of technology that is not meant to be destructive. That's like saying if I live a spoon around and a person grabs that spoon and uses it to kills somebody it's my fault. Lex's scheme to make a new continent was entirely his idea.

You could argue the same thing about a handgun or a Boeing 767. Fact of the matter is, both are dangerous and have been used to intentionally kill people. Bare hands can be lethal weapons too if used right, but that's not the point. The Kryptonian crystals weren't meant to be weapons, but they control INCREDIBLE power, and Superman would know that. He was careless and negligent.

By the nature of Lex's offenses I doubt they only had one testimony to throw him in jail by.

Correct, seeing as that he DID serve time. Apparently, there wasn't enough evidence to keep him there though because Superman wasn't around to testify. I don't blame him for this; I'm just stating the facts as presented in the film.

And say they would call Superman to court. How would Superman prove that he is in fact Superman.

Is that a rhetorical question? How could Superman prove he was Superman? Are you kidding me? Would LEVITATING off the floor or INCINERATING the judge's gavel with a glance be a little too understated in a court room? LOL C'mon LadyVader.

Richard White was the only likable character in this movie.

Superman was a nitwit in this movie. He went to look for a Planet that his infinitely intelligent father told him was destroyed, based on shoddy evidence. He left town without telling anyone including the alleged "love of his life", and then came back expecting to be treated like he was Jesus Christ (and ironically enough the dopey people in the film did treat him that way.) And don't even get me started on how he stalked Lois, either. I didn't find him "heroic" at all.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[superbaby]

...

BTW, why does SUperman have to have someone else save his bacon in the movies? WHy can't he just find a way out for himself?

blame the writers and the director who have only little creativity.

 

[LadyVader]

@ Agent Pat

I asked you a question. When you are called into court to testify, don't you need some sort of legal identification? Your birth records. Your social security number. Something?

 

[The Kid]

Kitty.