Comics Is anyone actually excited for O.M.I.T?

[Themanofbat]

I look at my OWN life and I see a lot of rehashes to what's already happened to me again.

imdaly - BND every two weeks...

t:

 

[kguillou]

Have you guys noticed that Spider-man's popularity in general has decreased in recent years? I'm not talking just comics, but in all media. It used to be you saw Spiderman as the face of all of marvel's products and now it seems like you see more Ironman and Wolverine than you do Spiderman these days. Ironman is slowly becoming Marvel's #1 mascot and spidey is becoming second-tier. I think its a culmination of the comics being rough these past few years, the 3rd movie not resonating well with the fans, the video games being crap, and of course the ill-fated Spectacular cartoon. Spider-man as a franchise hasn't been having a good 4-5 years at all.

I mean dont me wrong, Spidey is still marvel's biggest bankable commodity, but it just seems like recently his overall star power is slowly decreasing in favor for Ironman and wolverine. I dunno, has anyone else noticed this or am I imagining things?

 

[Dragon]

Yep... people say that we've been reading "rehashed stories", but we've been getting a semblance of "rehashed stories" since the 70's... personally, I like the current tales, and yes, I cab see some semblance in some stories to older ones, but I saw the same thing ine th 80's and ESPECIALLY in the 90's, so why is it such a big deal NOW?

Just my two cents...

Well, first, that only says that the comics have sucked for too long. Which they have.

Second, that they've done it wrong in the past isn't a reason to continue to tread water. It's the very reason to improve things now.

And third, if Peter were allowed to actually evolve as a character rather than purposely forcing him to rehash the same situations repeatedly we'd see less repetitiveness.

As far as OMIT (Which is a very appropriate title I think) is anyone really expecting either a true resoultion or a satisfying one after so many years of BS?
If Joe & Co, haven't been able to figure this out yet, it's not likely they ever will.

 

[Dragon]

Have you guys noticed that Spider-man's popularity in general has decreased in recent years? I'm not talking just comics, but in all media. It used to be you saw Spiderman as the face of all of marvel's products and now it seems like you see more Ironman and Wolverine than you do Spiderman these days. Ironman is slowly becoming Marvel's #1 mascot and spidey is becoming second-tier. I think its a culmination of the comics being rough these past few years, the 3rd movie not resonating well with the fans, the video games being crap, and of course the ill-fated Spectacular cartoon. Spider-man as a franchise hasn't been having a good 4-5 years at all.

I mean dont me wrong, Spidey is still marvel's biggest bankable commodity, but it just seems like recently his overall star power is slowly decreasing in favor for Ironman and wolverine. I dunno, has anyone else noticed this or am I imagining things?

The thing is that Spidey didn't get to be number one based on his looks. Spidey became Marvel's most popular character because the stories featuring him were great and took the concept of the comic book superhero to another level.

You can't consistently churn out garbage that just happens to feature Spider-Man and expect people to respond favorably.

 

[Themanofbat]

I think Spidey is still Marvel's #1 goto character... however, characters like the Hulk & Iron Man are finally being discovered/showcased larhely in part thanks to movie and other viewing media...

Whenever I see some product promoting Marvel characters, even though we see new characters being showcased, Spider-Man is always there...

 

[SpideyInATree]

Have you guys noticed that Spider-man's popularity in general has decreased in recent years? I'm not talking just comics, but in all media. It used to be you saw Spiderman as the face of all of marvel's products and now it seems like you see more Ironman and Wolverine than you do Spiderman these days. Ironman is slowly becoming Marvel's #1 mascot and spidey is becoming second-tier. I think its a culmination of the comics being rough these past few years, the 3rd movie not resonating well with the fans, the video games being crap, and of course the ill-fated Spectacular cartoon. Spider-man as a franchise hasn't been having a good 4-5 years at all.

I mean dont me wrong, Spidey is still marvel's biggest bankable commodity, but it just seems like recently his overall star power is slowly decreasing in favor for Ironman and wolverine. I dunno, has anyone else noticed this or am I imagining things?

Well, of course Spider-Man's popularity is going to decrease because they haven't put out a new Spider-Man movie. Another Spidey movie isn't going to be coming out for another few years now.

With Marvel Studios having huge success with the two Iron Man movies, The Incredible Hulk, and, no doubt, the Thor movie will be a success. I would say Spider-Man's popularity within the general public is going to keep falling until they put out the new rebooted movie.

Anyway, to get things back on topic I'm interested in seeing how things will go with this OMIT storyline. I've really been enjoying the Spidey books steadily for months now. Love the great artwork we've been getting with each story arc. The Lizard arc has been destroying it with artwork. I love those Chris Bachalo pencils and then they switch over to Emma Rios' art which is really great. I would love to see her get a whole book to herself.

Being a long time Spider-Man fan I've learned not to get myself too excited about storylines because most times if you go in with high expectations you will be disappointed, heh.

 

[Dragon]

It has nothing to do with the movies. Neither Iron Man film has done as well as even Spidey 3. And the Hulk films have both flopped financially.

Spidey got to the top without a film. And film success is not what's lacking.

 

[iloveclones]

The movies have everything to do with the public's perception (or even awareness) of IM, Hulk, X-Men. Most of them could care less if they are even publishing a comic based on them.

And the popularity of these characters among the general public and among comic fans are two completely separate things. Guess which ones the decision-makers care about?

 

[Meehaul]

I posted an analysis on an earlier thread that demonstrated that ASM's popularity has not been dropping relative to other heroes. I looked back at the lists for each of the years stretching back to the 70's and despite what people claim, ASM has had long stretches where its been down in the dumps.

Here's just the past decade. plus three years of the 90's, by year. The first number is ASM and the second number is USM (reflecting the number of times in the stated year that ASM made it to theh top 10 in sales). I decided to include USM because for three years, USM beat or tied ASM in the top 10 rankings:

1997 0 (USM not yet launched)

1998 2 (USM not yet launched)

1999 0 (USM not yet launched)

2000 0 (no USM calculated)

2001 9 12

2002 12 12

2003 9 11

2004 0 10

2005 3 2

2006 8 1

2007 8 1

2008 9 0

2009 7 0

THus far, ASM has hit the top 10 for 3 out of the 5 months for which data are available. ASM already equals its 2005 performance, and does better than 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2004--and we still have seven months to go. Post-BND, ASM hit the top 10 just as often, if not more often, than it has for other stretches. We also know that ASM has been Marvel's most subscribed comic for at least the past three years. 2002 is the only perfect year (12/12) for ASM. The 80's and 90's were actually pretty bleak decades for ASM. The X-Men really ruled during that time period--Wolverine, in fact, was arguably Marvel's most popular hero.

Absolute numbers, of course, for ALL comics across the board have fallen dramatically. ASM's fall has been no worse than anyone else's. In fact, Wolverine & Batman have taken the largest hit in the last decade.

As for visibility, movies and video games help a great deal. Perhaps the biggest problem Marvel has now is that it does not have the big screen rights to its otherwise most visible hero--Spider-Man. Marvel's bottom line thus pushes Marvel to get out the noise for the heroes it does hold the screen and gaming rights for, especially when their movies are hitting the screen.

 

[Dragon]

The movies have everything to do with the public's perception (or even awareness) of IM, Hulk, X-Men. Most of them could care less if they are even publishing a comic based on them.

And the popularity of these characters among the general public and among comic fans are two completely separate things. Guess which ones the decision-makers care about?

Really? Because if that's the case, then Spidey is the most popular comic character ever, since his franchise crushes all others, including Batman.
Iron Man hasn't touched any of Spidey's films in terms of box office. So clearly that's NOT the issue here.

 

[Meehaul]

It also depends upon how you define "popularity". Spidey leads in comic book and movie sales. Superman consistenly ranks as the world's most popular and/or recognizable super hero-but the re-boot sucked and his comics languish. So, part of this depends upon how you define "popular."

 

[Dragon]

It also depends upon how you define "popularity". Spidey leads in comic book and movie sales. Superman consistenly ranks as the world's most popular and/or recognizable super hero-but the re-boot sucked and his comics languish. So, part of this depends upon how you define "popular."

Obviously popular as in "loved". Osama Bin Laden is recognized world-wide. It doesn't mean people want to see him.

And this still brings us back to the fact that Spidey, despite his popularity isn't selling comics. Hasn't in a long time. That he has hit the top 10 a few times since BND started, mostly because people were giving the events a shot and then driopping Spidey like a bad habit afterward reflects just how far he's fallen.

 

[Meehaul]

Well, Spider-Man has consistently been Marvel's top selling solo superhero in recent years. He consistently outsells every other solo super hero book with the exception of Batman. Thor, GL, Hulk, and Cap have all occasionally done better, but not with anything approaching the consistency of ASM. And, at least recently, ASM has generally been beating the Batman books as well.

So, is he selling as many comics as he sold in the 60's, 70's and 90s? No. But NO character or event book, or even team book is selling as much as they did in the 60's 70's or 90's. So, compared to historic comic sales, Spidey's down, but so is every other comic book and comic book character. His relative performance (that is, relative to other characters) is as good or better than it has ever been. If you're a Batman, Superman, or Wolverine fan, you really need to be worried (although Batman always has considerable bounce and is the official "index" comic because of its relatively stable sales.

I think you and I have discussed this before, Dragon. It's fair to say that neither Spidey, nor any other comic is selling anything close to what they sold back in the Silver Age. It is not correct, however, to single out Spidey and say that ASM is not selling, but ignoring the fact that NO comics are selling particularly well. You are implying that low sales are somehow only ASM related, which simply isn't true.

 

[kguillou]

I mean it could just be that marvel is pushing their other franchises really hard at the moment, like Hulk, Ironman wolverine etc. Lately i've been seeing their faces on marvel stuff more than spider-man. They haven't even announced Spider-man in the new Marvel vs Capcom game yet and you'd think he'd be the first character they'd showcase.
I also definitely think marvel's putting a little more effort towards the properties that they own in terms of cartoons and movies as well. When Spectacular Spiderman was airing, you never saw an inch of advertising or marketing on Marvel's part to promote the show. But they promoted the hell out of Ironman Armored Adventures and Wolverine and the X-men and that stupid Superherosquad show.

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm not sure, but that might have been more about who was in charge of licensing those cartoons... Marvel made those ones that were advertised while Sony had the rights to SSM.

 

[SpideyInATree]

It has nothing to do with the movies. Neither Iron Man film has done as well as even Spidey 3. And the Hulk films have both flopped financially.

Spidey got to the top without a film. And film success is not what's lacking.

When it comes to the general public, or non-comic readers, the movies have a huge impact. It's not even about who sells the most tickets. When the movies hit the theater what happens in the other areas of media? You have Iron Man pasted all over the place in toy stores. There are toys out aimed toward the movies. Then we have to get into when the movies get released on DVD or Blu-Ray. That's more advertising and more spotlight on the characters.

Spider-Man doesn't even have a new animated series on the air. Didn't Spectacular Spider-Man get cancelled?

There is no doubt that Spider-Man is one of the most recognizable superheroes, along the same lines as Superman and Batman. The most ignorant people to comics and entertainment even have a small grasp on who those characters are. However, with other superhero movies constantly coming out it's definitely taking popularity away from Spider-Man and it's showcasing Marvel's other characters. That's all. It's not like Spider-Man is going to be forgotten forever or anything. He just doesn't have the mainstream spotlight on him due to not having any movies out.

And if you want to talk about comics Spider-Man's books are consistently in the top 20, or even top 10 depending on what's going on in the title, but the Green Lantern books and the Batman books are beating Spider-Man in sales. It's just the way things go. Some characters get a nice little spotlight on them while others take a back seat. I'm sure Spider-Man will sell huge when this OMIT thing comes out.

And boy oh boy did this thread go seriously off topic, haha.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I wont be buying OMIT but I do want to know what happened. So I'll just check in here, or wikipedia.

 

[Dragon]

I posted an analysis on an earlier thread that demonstrated that ASM's popularity has not been dropping relative to other heroes. I looked back at the lists for each of the years stretching back to the 70's and despite what people claim, ASM has had long stretches where its been down in the dumps.

Here's just the past decade. plus three years of the 90's, by year. The first number is ASM and the second number is USM (reflecting the number of times in the stated year that ASM made it to theh top 10 in sales). I decided to include USM because for three years, USM beat or tied ASM in the top 10 rankings:

1997 0 (USM not yet launched)

1998 2 (USM not yet launched)

1999 0 (USM not yet launched)

2000 0 (no USM calculated)

2001 9 12

2002 12 12

2003 9 11

2004 0 10

2005 3 2

2006 8 1

2007 8 1

2008 9 0

2009 7 0

THus far, ASM has hit the top 10 for 3 out of the 5 months for which data are available. ASM already equals its 2005 performance, and does better than 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2004--and we still have seven months to go. Post-BND, ASM hit the top 10 just as often, if not more often, than it has for other stretches. We also know that ASM has been Marvel's most subscribed comic for at least the past three years. 2002 is the only perfect year (12/12) for ASM. The 80's and 90's were actually pretty bleak decades for ASM. The X-Men really ruled during that time period--Wolverine, in fact, was arguably Marvel's most popular hero.

Absolute numbers, of course, for ALL comics across the board have fallen dramatically. ASM's fall has been no worse than anyone else's. In fact, Wolverine & Batman have taken the largest hit in the last decade.

As for visibility, movies and video games help a great deal. Perhaps the biggest problem Marvel has now is that it does not have the big screen rights to its otherwise most visible hero--Spider-Man. Marvel's bottom line thus pushes Marvel to get out the noise for the heroes it does hold the screen and gaming rights for, especially when their movies are hitting the screen.

Okay. If we're going to talk sales figures let's be accurate. For example- Sure, in March 2010 ASM came in at #10, while in March 2004 it came in at #11. But what does it matter, if in '04 ASM sold 83,000 issues versus 66.000 in '10?

And let's also avoid averaging BND ASM's three connected issues against ASM and two unconnected Spidey titles that were doing so poorly that they would eventually be cancelled anyway.

In the last 10 years or so, sales figures have levelled out. So we need not look back to the 60's or 90's or puzzle over the "Great Comic Crash of '96". BND is still selling in lower numbers than in recent years even. The average sales are about equal to those during the post-Clone Saga. Maybe this is still enough to sustain Marvel, but there's no question they can do better.

But ultimately, sales figures aren't important. I know why I'm not buying Spidey. And it's purely because the stories are bad. I just constantly find myself thinking what an idiot Peter and his cast are. And the limitations. Their lack of vision. Spider Tracer killings with no killings. You mean they couldn't come up with a story that actually makes it appear that Spidey really is killing people? Maybe some neurological feedback from his spider sense hitting the people he snags with the tracers, causing their brains to hemorrage.. something. The ridiculousness of the Goblin formula. Everyday it does something new. Revives the dead- kills people then revives them too- uncharacteristically turns people into genrder-switching monsters. Send some to Obama- it'll probably solve unemployment as well. And ironically, the workings of the Goblin formula could even translate into a story- but they can't spot that either. No- they make an event out of Spidey fighting his classic foes. Are they going to make an event out of May going for lipo-suction, too?

Quesada and his crew just don't get the character. the very fact that they've generated these insane plots merely to maintain some imagained appearance of youthfulness makes that clear. Being married and a parent ages you? Tell that to the mass of teen parents in this country.
So now after all this time, OMIT is supposed to fix things? Don't you believe it.

 

[imdaly]

Okay. If we're going to talk sales figures let's be accurate. For example- Sure, in March 2010 ASM came in at #10, while in March 2004 it came in at #11. But what does it matter, if in '04 ASM sold 83,000 issues versus 66.000 in '10?

It matters because the entire industry is selling less now than before.

 

[Meehaul]

imdaly is exactly right. You can't single out one book and draw a conclusion. You have to examine ASM relative to other comic books. Relative to other comic books ASM is consistently doing well. But, as I said in my previous post, neither ASM nor any other comic book is selling anything close to previous decades. That's not the fault of OMD, that's a result of larger, deeper trends in the industry--not just comics, but the overall entertainment industry.

This is a discussion, ultimately, about preferences. You prefer the SM you grew up with-a married Pete. I don't. I think the current crew has a better handle on the character than the creators did either when they married Pete to a super-model actress or when they made him a teacher or had Norman raping Gwen. I'm sure you disagree. Neither view is "right" or "wrong." I far prefer post-BND to the previous ten years or so. You don't. That's fine.

 

[Dragon]

Actually there's been an increase in sales:

2004 74.14 million copies $213.24 million

2009 74.88 million copies $257.88 million

So Spidey's drop in sales has nothing to do anything in the industry and everything to do with what's going on inbetween the covers.

And I don't prefer Peter being married. I prefer well-written stories with actual character development. Peter can be married or single. Just as long as some thought is put into it.

 

[Dragon]

And BTW- Joe Q is responsible for Peter being a teacher and the Norman/Gwen sex romp. He also oversaw the Mephisto deal and the worldwide midwipe.

The marriage to a super-model is many EICs ago.

 

[imdaly]

Actually there's been an increase in sales:

2004 74.14 million copies $213.24 million

2009 74.88 million copies $257.88 million

So Spidey's drop in sales has nothing to do anything in the industry and everything to do with what's going on inbetween the covers.

How many issues of books came out in 2004 compared to 2009?
How many issues of books hit the 100k mark in 2004 compared to 2009?
How much of those $millions both years was sales from TBPs?

 

[MACH]

Yay....another thread that turns into a discussion about Spideys popularity since OMD....oh the joy...

 

[Themanofbat]

Hold the phone here...

You said...

Actually there's been an increase in sales:

2004 74.14 million copies $213.24 million

2009 74.88 million copies $257.88 million

That there is an increase in Spidey sales... but then you say...

So Spidey's drop in sales has nothing to do anything in the industry and everything to do with what's going on inbetween the covers.

What drop? If you go buy your numbers, then in spite of a decline in the industry, Spidey's numbers are pretty healthy, especially in 2009, the second year of BND.

So what exactly are you people arguing about?