JLA vs. The X-men

[ShadowBoxing]

and the x-men defeating the JLA is not fact. Its speculation.
until we see definitive proof in print its nothing more than guessing and personal biases. So i restate. You believe what you want and I believe what I want.

No, it's a fact that mutants like Vulcan, Phoenix, Iceman and Kid Omega are more powerful than Superman, Wonder Woman or Flash.

Phoenix alone can rearrange molecules and dispell forms of matter, Superman, Wonder Woman and Flash simply being living things composed of matter puts them at a disadvantage they won't be able to overcome.

Iceman controls all forms of matter. Simply with a thought can freeze someone's internal fluids, and potentially even (as it's been shown) halt the movement of matter...potentially at the molecular level.

Magneto is omega level. Can resist forms of mental manipulation and controls the entirity of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Vulcan controls ALL forms of energy. Again, simply existing in a physical universe puts them at a tactical disadvantage.

You're speaking from ignorance of the X-Men's capabilities, not person opinion.

 

[shapeshifter]

and yet the x-men with all of their vast powers find it hard to live their day to day lives, and defeat villans as they come along. If they were truly as powerful as you say they would have stopped hulk before he could have made three steps towards the mansion.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

and yet the x-men with all of their vast powers find it hard to live their day to day lives

And Superman, Batman, Flash and the other Justice Leaguers don't have troublesome day to day lives too?...guess you don't read many comics.

and defeat villans as they come along.

Yes they do tend to "defeat" them...that's rather an asset. Especially when some are as powerful as Apocalypse.

If they were truly as powerful as you say they would have stopped hulk before he could have made three steps towards the mansion.

Their were no Omega level mutants standing against the Hulk. Iceman, Havok, Polaris, Magneto, Phoenix, Rachel Summers and of course Storm and Vulcan were all abscent from that fight. Juggernaut did manage to stalemate him.

 

[Andy C.]

No, it's a fact that mutants like Vulcan, Phoenix, Iceman and Kid Omega are more powerful than Superman, Wonder Woman or Flash.

Nothing in comic books is a "fact" because none of it is real. If the writers wanted, they could have Superman shoot beams from his ears that turn Phoenix into a pinata. So no, it isn't a fact that Vulcan et al. are more powerful than Superman et al.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Nothing in comic books is a "fact" because none of it is real. If the writers wanted, they could have Superman shoot beams from his ears that turn Phoenix into a pinata. So no, it isn't a fact that Vulcan et al. are more powerful than Superman et al.

Until they retcon in that Superman can change things into pinata's, it's fact. You cannot just write anything you want into a comic and expect it to remain in canon.

 

[shapeshifter]

Until they retcon in that Superman can change things into pinata's, it's fact. You cannot just write anything you want into a comic and expect it to remain in canon.

tell you what.
why don't you go grab a tape recorder and tape yourself agreeing with yourself and play it back. it sounds like its the only way you will be happy.
me i'm going to another thread because the air is getting a little to thick around here

 

[Andy C.]

Until they retcon in that Superman can change things into pinata's, it's fact. You cannot just write anything you want into a comic and expect it to remain in canon.

'Fact' implies that whatever you're talking about actually exists. The Justice League and the X-Men are fictional characters. Fictional characters do not, in fact, exist. Therefore, no, it's not fact.

And even if we're going by simple in-ficitional-universe canon, all of the Marvel/DC crossovers have been retconned out of both universes' continuities. So you still have no solid ground for any argument over whether fictional-person-in-fictional-universe A would be more powerful than fictional-person-in-fictional-universe B.

And yeah, the writers can just write anything they want into a comic. That's pretty much their job.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Iceman controls all forms of matter. Simply with a thought can freeze someone's internal fluids, and potentially even (as it's been shown) halt the movement of matter...potentially at the molecular level.

I can see how that's a problem for the other Leaguers, but the Flash can control matter on a molecular level as well, especially his own molecules. The more Iceman tries to slow his molecules, the more Wally can just speed them right back up. It'd just be a matter of who can keep it up for longer, and we haven't seen either of them in that sort of context enough to say that for certain.

 

[Kitsune]

And Superman, Batman, Flash and the other Justice Leaguers don't have troublesome day to day lives too?...guess you don't read many comics.

Yes they do tend to "defeat" them...that's rather an asset. Especially when some are as powerful as Apocalypse.

Their were no Omega level mutants standing against the Hulk. Iceman, Havok, Polaris, Magneto, Phoenix, Rachel Summers and of course Storm and Vulcan were all abscent from that fight. Juggernaut did manage to stalemate him.

The Flash is probably the epitome of this problem. How can a guy who runs at the speed of light be challenged by a guy with a wand that controls weather. He should be able to just grab the wand and punch the guy out, but the story requires otherwise.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes, the Flash is one of the most consistently underwritten characters in existence. But he has to be, so you just kind of have to accept it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

'Fact' implies that whatever you're talking about actually exists.

No it doesn't. Facts change in reality much like they do in fiction.

The Justice League and the X-Men are fictional characters. Fictional characters do not, in fact, exist. Therefore, no, it's not fact.

Fiction, specifically fantasy works by setting boundaries and rules. Granted none of the rules necessarily apply outside of the fantasy. For example, The Living Tribunal is the most powerful interacting entity in the MU. The source wall has claimed everyone who has tried to cross it. Juggernaut is unstoppable. Kryptonite hurts Superman

These are rules that the fantasy sets down, much like our rules involving physics, matter or chemistry.

And even if we're going by simple in-ficitional-universe canon, all of the Marvel/DC crossovers have been retconned out of both universes' continuities. So you still have no solid ground for any argument over whether fictional-person-in-fictional-universe A would be more powerful than fictional-person-in-fictional-universe B.

Not really.

And yeah, the writers can just write anything they want into a comic. That's pretty much their job.

Again, not really. You have to expand within the boundaries of the previous writers. True you could throw continuity out the window, but never completely. The character you write still is the character you write. So you in order to change them you have to write in how that change occurred.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Bah! Give me The Illuminati and Doom vs. the JLA.

 

[trustyside-kick]

No it doesn't. Facts change in reality much like they do in fiction.

Fiction, specifically fantasy works by setting boundaries and rules. Granted none of the rules necessarily apply outside of the fantasy. For example, The Living Tribunal is the most powerful interacting entity in the MU. The source wall has claimed everyone who has tried to cross it. Juggernaut is unstoppable. Kryptonite hurts Superman

These are rules that the fantasy sets down, much like our rules involving physics, matter or chemistry.


Not really.

Again, not really. You have to expand within the boundaries of the previous writers. True you could throw continuity out the window, but never completely. The character you write still is the character you write. So you in order to change them you have to write in how that change occurred.

I don't agree 100% with ShadowBoxing, but I do agree that there are certain boundaries and limits for characters. That's like saying Batman can rip someone's head off with his bare hands because the "writer wanted him to".

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I don't agree 100% with ShadowBoxing, but I do agree that there are certain boundaries and limits for characters. That's like saying Batman can rip someone's head off with his bare hands because the "writer wanted him to".

That's basically, in a nutshell, what I am saying. I mean someone could write a fan fiction about Muhammad Ali in his prime losing in a fight against Hilary Duff, and write it so it doesn't violate the laws of physics...but it would still come off as a stretch and completely silly.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

A writer could always come up with some way for that to happen, though. Captain America temporarily gained super-strength, Aquaman's powers were expanded when he gained his water hand, the Flash gained boatloads of new potential when the Speed Force was introduced, etc. Sometimes they don't even need new powers, just reinterpretations of old ones, like when Morrison had Aquaman give a white Martian a seizure by telepathically manipulating the aquatic vestiges of his brain. I still don't see how people didn't call bull**** on that at the time, but it's an established part of his powers now.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I thought it was a cool part that was pointed out and exposed. A certain membrane that is identical to that of marine life and Aquaman was able to use limited telepathy on the White Martian. What's so wrong with that? And that isn't just me as a Aquaman fan. I really do think that was witty and interesting and it makes sense.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

As a member of a telepathic race with a violent past the Martian should have been able to prevent Aquaman from accessing that part of his brain in the first place. A natural telepath of that caliber should have constant mental defenses that protect at least the critical parts of his mind if not all of it. That Aquaman could manipulate it is not unrealistic but he should not have been able to get to it.

 

[GregComicFan]

haha. I've seen this a hundred times before. The "JLA vs. X-Men" debate always turns into "who Batman can beat in the X-Men"....

...I agree with other posters. I LOVE BATMAN. He's my favorite. However, even I have to admit there's almost zero chance Batman could beat Wolverine, Rogue, or many other X-Men.

Honestly, I would have Batman go up against Cyclops. All he does is shoot a powerful blast from his eyes, and that takes aiming. If Batman can dodge bullets (Joker, Two-Face, gangsters....they all shoot at Bats all the time), I'm sure Batman can handle a guy who basically has a big gun on his face. Once you get past that, Batman could fight Cyclops hand-to-hand, and there's no way Cyclops would win.

And if you think about it, Batman taking down Cyclops would be a major victory. Batman took out the team leader. now the rest of the X-men are unorganized and dumbfounded...their leader is MIA, their morale is low.

Yeah, Batman versus Cyclops makes more sense.

and Batman would easily figure out that without his goggles Cyclop's weakness is that he can't open his eyes....so Batman would probably knock his goggles off, Cyke would be afraid to open his eyes (and possibly hit his team-mates), and the Batman would upper-cut him....BLAM!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

haha. I've seen this a hundred times before. The "JLA vs. X-Men" debate always turns into "who Batman can beat in the X-Men"....

Funny...this argument largely has discounted Batman the entire time.

...I agree with other posters. I LOVE BATMAN. He's my favorite. However, even I have to admit there's almost zero chance Batman could beat Wolverine, Rogue, or many other X-Men.

Agreed.

Honestly, I would have Batman go up against Cyclops. All he does is shoot a powerful blast from his eyes

That is a major understatement.

and that takes aiming.

No, not really. Cyclops has something called 'spacial awareness". This means his brain is very attuned to his surroundings. This is how he can pull off those "trick shots" with general ease...like when he hit the cue ball on the pool table and sunk every shot.

If Batman can dodge bullets (Joker, Two-Face, gangsters....they all shoot at Bats all the time), I'm sure Batman can handle a guy who basically has a big gun on his face.

Keep in mind him dodging bullets is merely plot device. I've never seen him dodge a bullet at point blank range. Also Cyclop complicates the matter since his blasts are hardly the radius of a bullet.

Once you get past that, Batman could fight Cyclops hand-to-hand, and there's no way Cyclops would win.

No argument there. If it came down to a h2h match...Batman would win.

And if you think about it, Batman taking down Cyclops would be a major victory. Batman took out the team leader. now the rest of the X-men are unorganized and dumbfounded...their leader is MIA, their morale is low.

Storm, Wolverine, and Rogue have all served as team leader. True, they are not as effective, but the team functions well without Cyclops.

Yeah, Batman versus Cyclops makes more sense.

Set your sights lower: Batman and Gambit, or Batman and Nightcrawler might be a better match up.

and Batman would easily figure out that without his goggles Cyclop's weakness is that he can't open his eyes

Says who . Cyclops has fought numerous villains without the aid of his visor. And even when he his beams he can see just fine. Hell, he killed Ugly John without his visor on.

....so Batman would probably knock his goggles off,

...And immediately let lose the biggest unrestained blast of pure kinetic force right at him...yeah that's smart

Cyke would be afraid to open his eyes

Only if Batman was holding Jean or Emma.

(and possibly hit his team-mates), and the Batman would upper-cut him....BLAM!

Not before dying from a huge optic blast wound.

I mean hell dude...just look at my avatar.

 

[deemar325]

JLA sure they would win, but X-men is simply cooler and sales better.

Why is this even a thread?

 

[The Leaguer]

but X-men is simply cooler

Hahahahahaha!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

JLA sure they would win, but X-men is simply cooler and sales better.

Why is this even a thread?

Because the threadmaker decided Phoenix full powered and Magneto were part of the X-Men.

 

[goldmill]

You know, I think Shadowboxing is making some good points but again it all comes down to how each character is written. Rarely, does each X-man character or JLA member use their power to the fullest potential and when they do it is highly inconsistent. Otherwise, we are talking about the Flash owning everyone before anyone can think. And Superman, Wonder Woman, and MM are all faster than anyone on the X-men in their own right. If they are written using that kind of power and moving faster than thought, who can really defeat them? Or do you write Superman not holding back on his powers and taking a Sunbath before the fight? Do you consider MM not holding back and using all his powers at full potential like in "Trial by Fire" where he basically took out the entire league and all the White Martians on his own?

The same thing can be said for the X-men characters. I don't read Marvel nearly as much as DC but I do know it took years for Iceman to be shown at his full potential and even then it was severely inconsistant.

So, do you consider every character on both teams using the full potential of their powers and not holding back in any way shape or form? Because that changes things significantly.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

And Superman, Wonder Woman, and MM are all faster than anyone on the X-men in their own right. .

Martian Manhunter and Superman are superhumanly fast. Wonder Woman, however, I think only possesses superhuman flight...I don't believe she can "move" at superhuman speeds. She is more or less like Heracles with flight abilities.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Im a Marvel fan but both teams at full potential or not JLA wins Superman and martian manhunter are just too powerful. thats DC problem they designed their heroes far to strong thats why supes has not got a villain worthy to take him on intelligently AND physically except Darkside and he has been taken out of the DC closet and beaten far to often as that he is starting to look foolish. This is why Batman is DC most popular asset. Marvel has more interesting heroes AND villains period imo.