JLA vs. The X-men

[The Leaguer]

Being a part of an X-Man is better than being an X-Man.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I dislike JLA and DC in general they have no concept of character design and have relied on Batman to prop them up for the last 20+ years WB has absolutly no faith in any of the characters baring supes and bats and they have the worst villains in existence especially in comparison to there supposed nemesisses Flash is incredibly powerful who does he battle? Captain ******* cold, superman is one of the most powerful of all heroes who does he have to test him? Toyman,bizarro,lex luthor all crap villains who you know dont have chance in hell of beating him. Batman is the only hero with any good villains and of them all only joker and twoface (and possibly ras al ghul) have any development beyond the gimmick they are based on its shamefull. DC doesnt realise a goood villain is as important as a good hero

Flame Post!

 

[Anubis]

You can always tell the crazys by the fact that they never seem to use any punctuation.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I will bet anyone to read Geoff Johns' run on The Flash and tell me that the character developement for DC's villains is mediocre.

That's fairly recent, and while everyone keeps telling me Flash is DC's Spider-Man...it's hardly the case. Stan Lee did a much better job grounding all his characters in the beginning, in no small part due to the fact that Stan spent an inordinate amount of time writing about his characters out of costume.

At the end of the day it seems to me DC is still a very story and mythology driven company. Flash is still very much tied to this. Even though Wally is more 'common man' he still has that whole Flash legacy/Speed Force mythology tied to him. And to top it off most of his villains are still monikers.

I agree DC recently has taken some of what Marvel did in the sixties and eighties and synthesized it with their Universe, but it's still a far cry from having a Dr.Doom, Dr.Ocotopus, Green Goblin or Kingpin in their ranks (or that is to say, in that number. DC, of course, will always have the Joker)

I believe Black Adam, Superboy Prime, and Luthor have all been given the potential ability to step in and fill that gap

The other major misstep I think DC keeps making is overlooking their B and C-List characters. Marvel does a great job of promoting their characters and casting a wide net, hence them not having a "Big 7". DC needs to start doing this more often, i.e. stop killing off characters like the Question and replacing them with ethno-friendly characters no one cares about.

 

[The Question]

That's fairly recent, and while everyone keeps telling me Flash is DC's Spider-Man...it's hardly the case. Stan Lee did a much better job grounding all his characters in the beginning, in no small part due to the fact that Stan spent an inordinate amount of time writing about his characters out of costume.

At the end of the day it seems to me DC is still a very story and mythology driven company. Flash is still very much tied to this. Even though Wally is more 'common man' he still has that whole Flash legacy/Speed Force mythology tied to him. And to top it off most of his villains are still monikers.

I agree DC recently has taken some of what Marvel did in the sixties and eighties and synthesized it with their Universe, but it's still a far cry from having a Dr.Doom, Dr.Ocotopus, Green Goblin or Kingpin in their ranks (or that is to say, in that number. DC, of course, will always have the Joker)

I believe Black Adam, Superboy Prime, and Luthor have all been given the potential ability to step in and fill that gap

I'm much more interested in The Flash's Rogues than wether or not he's "DC's Spider-Man." Captain Cold is a great character. As for Black Adam and Luthor, I think they've both been, at one time or another, just as good characters as Doom, Octavious, or Osborn.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I'm much more interested in The Flash's Rogues than wether or not he's "DC's Spider-Man." Captain Cold is a great character. As for Black Adam and Luthor, I think they've both been, at one time or another, just as good characters as Doom, Octavious, or Osborn.

As far as I know Black Adam was a virtually ignored and underwritten villain until IC, and my friend, a 'Big Red Cheese' fan says as much.

As for Lex Luthor, I really felt he was incredibly inconsistent until Morrison and Bruce Timm started using him. They married that whole Businessman/mad scientist personality. IMO, John Bryne failed with the character, and I've was never much for Pre-Crisis Lex until they teamed him with Brainiac...but the fact he needed to accomplice kinda took him down a notch.

Now that they've combined his retro self with his reinvented self (the way Timm and Morrison did) I think they've created a great villain. However since Superman's origin has yet to be retold in canon it remains to be seen how he is used...I'm betting though the new origin will make him a Smallville type Lex.

 

[The Question]

As far as I know Black Adam was a virtually ignored and underwritten villain until IC, and my friend, a 'Big Red Cheese' fan says as much.

Then you should read JSA. He was a pretty big character in that for a while.

As for Lex Luthor, I really felt he was incredibly inconsistent until Morrison and Bruce Timm started using him. They married that whole Businessman/mad scientist personality. IMO, John Bryne failed with the character, and I've was never much for Pre-Crisis Lex until they teamed him with Brainiac...but the fact he needed to accomplice kinda took him down a notch.

Now that they've combined his retro self with his reinvented self (the way Timm and Morrison did) I think they've created a great villain. However since Superman's origin has yet to be retold in canon it remains to be seen how he is used...I'm betting though the new origin will make him a Smallville type Lex.

I thought the new version of Lex was pretty lame. He's just a two dimensional mad man. Read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. Best Lex Luthor story ever.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

That's fairly recent, and while everyone keeps telling me Flash is DC's Spider-Man...it's hardly the case. Stan Lee did a much better job grounding all his characters in the beginning, in no small part due to the fact that Stan spent an inordinate amount of time writing about his characters out of costume.

But look at Spider-Man has changed so much just to appeal to this generation. To me its kinda sad really. He is nearly nothing like he used to be.

At the end of the day it seems to me DC is still a very story and mythology driven company. Flash is still very much tied to this. Even though Wally is more 'common man' he still has that whole Flash legacy/Speed Force mythology tied to him. And to top it off most of his villains are still monikers.

Whats wrong with Mythology and Legacies? I think it makes for a exponentially stronger universe.

I agree DC recently has taken some of what Marvel did in the sixties and eighties and synthesized it with their Universe, but it's still a far cry from having a Dr.Doom, Dr.Ocotopus, Green Goblin or Kingpin in their ranks (or that is to say, in that number. DC, of course, will always have the Joker)

I really don't see what is so majestic about Green Goblin or Doom. This is coming from someone who was a hardcore Marvel Fanboy little more than a year ago.Marvel doesn't even seem to know what to do with their charcters anymore. As for villains who have really started to shine in recent years....

Doctor Light All the Flash rouges
Deathstroke Lex(He is really making a comeback)
Calculator Vandal Savage
Sinestro Despero
Catman Sivana
Egg Fu......

On the Marvel side....

Kingpin kinda isn't up to much. What has Doom done recently?
Green Goblin is on Some knock off Suicide Squad. Loki might be back but he was long gone for a while. Mandarin is dead. blah blah....

From House of M to Civil War to WWh it seems like Marvel is more bent on showing how *****y and grumpy marvel heroes are towards each other then making the villians great again.

Dc just really seems to be churning out the threats to the point where it honestly looks like the DC heroes are gonna be supremely screwed in a few months as the still haven't fully recovered from old wounds. Plus I hear my main man Per Degaton is gonna be kicking some ass soon.
I believe Black Adam, Superboy Prime, and Luthor have all been given the potential ability to step in and fill that gap

The other major misstep I think DC keeps making is overlooking their B and C-List characters. Marvel does a great job of promoting their characters and casting a wide net, hence them not having a "Big 7". DC needs to start doing this more often, i.e. stop killing off characters like the Question and replacing them with ethno-friendly characters no one cares about.

And also I am going to have to disagree on you big time on this one. I believe that DC is not only trying to emphasize the depths of their universe by giving its B and C listers some page-time but they are also bringing back old characters in new roles that are driving the DCU in a pretty cool direction. Look at how the JUSTICE LEAGUE and JUSTICE SOCIETY is filled with B and C listers for example. Booster Gold is now the greatest hero of all!? C'mon give DC somore cred.

I dunno, I still like both but I am leaning a bit towards DC nowadays.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Green Goblin being such an amazing villain? I can understand that a while back...but now he is just a plot device. I would really like to have these so-called great and developed Marvel villains listed out if you guys find the time. Will I deny there being good ones? No, because both companies have them. I'm just curious how grand and long this list of Marvel villains can actually be.

 

[Phenomenal]

Who would win, Imperiex or Onslaught (full power)!?

Imperiex would possibly pwn Galactus

 

[CaptainClown]

Ash Williams rules all

 

[Flash Facts]

"Good... bad... I'm the guy with the gun."

 

[Whirlysplat]

You can always tell the crazys by the fact that they never seem to use any punctuation.

Not always, I think some crazy posters use a great deal of punctuation! Well that's "my opinion" anyway!

 

[Kitsune]

Not always, I think some crazy posters use a great deal of punctuation! Well that's "my opinion" anyway!

THAT!!!! IS !!! NOT!!! TRUE!!!!

 

[fifthfiend]

Seriously why won't this horrible thread just die?

 

[Kitsune]

Seriously why won't this horrible thread just die?

Because people keep posting to it.

 

[fifthfiend]

Well they should stop!

 

[Whirlysplat]

THAT!!!! IS !!! NOT!!! TRUE!!!!

lol

 

[Kitsune]

Well they should stop!

Yes

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I dunno, I still like both but I am leaning a bit towards DC nowadays.

I still read them, but they're strength simply isn't in their characters. It's in their stories.

But look at Spider-Man has changed so much just to appeal to this generation. To me its kinda sad really. He is nearly nothing like he used to be.

No superhero, not Batman, not Superman, not Flash, not the X-Men are anything like "they used to be". But Parker still very much is a hard luck hero. The scenery may have changed, but that's what characterization is "evolving your character". Quesada may be bad when it comes to "mega events" (although DC is now just one huge mega event called 'Crisis') but at least, like Stan, he moves the characters somewhere. DC, I mean despite the fact that they retcon once every ten years, maybe update powers and origins, rarely move their characters in setting. Clark is still a reporter, Bruce is still a millionaire/billionaire. Hell, part of what made Lex so interesting is all the hoops they've made him jump through. DC far too often just puts a new name behind the mask, or revamps continuity everytime they want something new.

So, in answer to your observation, not I don't think it's "sad". I've held a ton of jobs, had a ton of relationships and done stupid sh** and messed things up...and guess what so have Daredevil, Spider-Man, and the X-Men.

Whats wrong with Mythology and Legacies? I think it makes for a exponentially stronger universe.

Maybe, maybe not. Marvel currently, has more movies than DC, and I think part of the problem is aside from Batman and Superman, most DC characters aren't that strong. That's why they constantly argue over John Stewart versus Hal versus Kyle. Or whether it ought to be Barry or Wally in a movie. Or how this and that should be adapted on film.

I feel like DC is very "retro" and thus it's very immitatiable...but has a harder and harder time appealing to an ever changing audience. And I think largely it's because they don't trust their talent. The Charleton heroes, for example, get far less play than they deserve. As does Aquaman these days, as does several other C and D listers.

I really don't see what is so majestic about Green Goblin or Doom. This is coming from someone who was a hardcore Marvel Fanboy little more than a year ago.Marvel doesn't even seem to know what to do with their charcters anymore. As for villains who have really started to shine in recent years....

Doctor Light All the Flash rouges
Deathstroke Lex(He is really making a comeback)
Calculator Vandal Savage
Sinestro Despero
Catman Sivana
Egg Fu......

On the Marvel side....

Kingpin kinda isn't up to much. What has Doom done recently?
Green Goblin is on Some knock off Suicide Squad. Loki might be back but he was long gone for a while. Mandarin is dead. blah blah....

Loki while be back in a few months, but that's besides the point. Villains don't get used all that often. Most fanboys lose sight of this for some reason. For example, Stan Lee introduced Vulture way back in issue 2 of ASM after a followup appearance, he wasn't seen again until the Romita run during the Blackie Drago storyline...which was something like issue 40 or 50. So years went by before we saw a top tier, in Stan Lee's mind, Spider villain. Villains don't need to appear constantly, in fact, they never have.

On the Marvel side who is "great" as a villain
Doom (active)
Green Goblin (active)
Bullseye (active)
Kingpin (jailed -active)
Mr Fear (IMO)
Elektra and the Hand (anti-heroish - active)
Mr Sinister (active)
Magneto (active - suspected)
Dr Octopus (whereabouts unknown - rumored to be showing up after BND)
Citizen V (around)
Red Skull (active - Brubaker arc)
Fautus is proving interesting
Sentinels (okay - technically not characters, but still cool)
Juggernaut (villain again)
Sabretooth (dead)
I personally like Cassandra Nova...but I'm not defending her to you guys.
Apocalypse (granted his last storyarc sucked)
Kang (pretty kickass in YA - presumed dead)
Galactus (who could forget)
Thanos
Taskmaster (active - IMO a great)
Loki (returning)
Mysterio (dead)
Kraven the Hunter (dead)
....and of course virtually all of Spidey's rogues.

Remember most of the Marvel villains have very personal grudges, whereac DC villains are almost like cosmically opposing forces. (i.e genius versus strength. Criminal versus lawman. Speed versus Cold. Yellow versus Green).

And also I am going to have to disagree on you big time on this one. I believe that DC is not only trying to emphasize the depths of their universe by giving its B and C listers some page-time but they are also bringing back old characters in new roles that are driving the DCU in a pretty cool direction. Look at how the JUSTICE LEAGUE and JUSTICE SOCIETY is filled with B and C listers for example.Booster Gold is now the greatest hero of all!? C'mon give DC somore cred

Booster isn't "the greatest hero of all"...only in his own, small time title is he that. You're trying to define DC by the exceptions not the rule. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, last time I checked are still the trinity and a Big Seven of sorts still exist and define the Justice League ranks more or less. And I gave them "some cred" for SP, BA and a few others. But look at books like the 52 and Countdown...which are pretty much devoted to killing off unused heroes...those are huge mistakes. Bruce Timm so far is the only one with his head on straight, make the less powerful heroes take front and center roles sometimes. Look at who their really pushing. Batman and Superman, and the usual Leaguers. DC may have one Booster book, and one Blue Beetle. But Marvel has Iron Fist, NA, Frontlines, Black Panther, the Order, New Warriors and popular books like X-Men and Avengers which aren't made up of "the best and most powerful"...they produce far more titles with far more characters.[/FONT]

 

[fifthfiend]

I still read them, but they're strength simply isn't in their characters. It's in their stories.

No superhero, not Batman, not Superman, not Flash, not the X-Men are anything like "they used to be". But Parker still very much is a hard luck hero. The scenery may have changed, but that's what characterization is "evolving your character". Quesada may be bad when it comes to "mega events" (although DC is now just one huge mega event called 'Crisis') but at least, like Stan, he moves the characters somewhere. DC, I mean despite the fact that they retcon once every ten years, maybe update powers and origins, rarely move their characters in setting. Clark is still a reporter, Bruce is still a millionaire/billionaire. Hell, part of what made Lex so interesting is all the hoops they've made him jump through. DC far too often just puts a new name behind the mask, or revamps continuity everytime they want something new.

So, in answer to your observation, not I don't think it's "sad". I've held a ton of jobs, had a ton of relationships and done stupid sh** and messed things up...and guess what so have Daredevil, Spider-Man, and the X-Men.

Maybe, maybe not. Marvel currently, has more movies than DC, and I think part of the problem is aside from Batman and Superman, most DC characters aren't that strong. That's why they constantly argue over John Stewart versus Hal versus Kyle. Or whether it ought to be Barry or Wally in a movie. Or how this and that should be adapted on film.

I feel like DC is very "retro" and thus it's very immitatiable...but has a harder and harder time appealing to an ever changing audience. And I think largely it's because they don't trust their talent. The Charleton heroes, for example, get far less play than they deserve. As does Aquaman these days, as does several other C and D listers.

Loki while be back in a few months, but that's besides the point. Villains don't get used all that often. Most fanboys lose sight of this for some reason. For example, Stan Lee introduced Vulture way back in issue 2 of ASM after a followup appearance, he wasn't seen again until the Romita run during the Blackie Drago storyline...which was something like issue 40 or 50. So years went by before we saw a top tier, in Stan Lee's mind, Spider villain. Villains don't need to appear constantly, in fact, they never have.

On the Marvel side who is "great" as a villain
Doom (active)
Green Goblin (active)
Bullseye (active)
Kingpin (jailed -active)
Mr Fear (IMO)
Elektra and the Hand (anti-heroish - active)
Mr Sinister (active)
Magneto (active - suspected)
Dr Octopus (whereabouts unknown - rumored to be showing up after BND)
Citizen V (around)
Red Skull (active - Brubaker arc)
Fautus is proving interesting
Sentinels (okay - technically not characters, but still cool)
Juggernaut (villain again)
Sabretooth (dead)
I personally like Cassandra Nova...but I'm not defending her to you guys.
Apocalypse (granted his last storyarc sucked)
Kang (pretty kickass in YA - presumed dead)
Galactus (who could forget)
Thanos
Taskmaster (active - IMO a great)
Loki (returning)
Mysterio (dead)
Kraven the Hunter (dead)
....and of course virtually all of Spidey's rogues.

Remember most of the Marvel villains have very personal grudges, whereac DC villains are almost like cosmically opposing forces. (i.e genius versus strength. Criminal versus lawman. Speed versus Cold. Yellow versus Green).

Booster isn't "the greatest hero of all"...only in his own, small time title is he that. You're trying to define DC by the exceptions not the rule. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, last time I checked are still the trinity and a Big Seven of sorts still exist and define the Justice League ranks more or less. And I gave them "some cred" for SP, BA and a few others. But look at books like the 52 and Countdown...which are pretty much devoted to killing off unused heroes...those are huge mistakes. Bruce Timm so far is the only one with his head on straight, make the less powerful heroes take front and center roles sometimes. Look at who their really pushing. Batman and Superman, and the usual Leaguers. DC may have one Booster book, and one Blue Beetle. But Marvel has Iron Fist, NA, Frontlines, Black Panther, the Order, New Warriors and popular books like X-Men and Avengers which aren't made up of "the best and most powerful"...they produce far more titles with far more characters.[/FONT]

STOP IT!

 

[Damiean Dark]

Maybe, maybe not. Marvel currently, has more movies than DC, and I think part of the problem is aside from Batman and Superman, most DC characters aren't that strong. That's why they constantly argue over John Stewart versus Hal versus Kyle. Or whether it ought to be Barry or Wally in a movie. Or how this and that should be adapted on film.

I feel like DC is very "retro" and thus it's very immitatiable...but has a harder and harder time appealing to an ever changing audience. And I think largely it's because they don't trust their talent. The Charleton heroes, for example, get far less play than they deserve. As does Aquaman these days, as does several other C and D listers.

Eaxctly Marvel has a more evenly spread roster of interesting heros/villains you only have to look at the title boards on superherohype to see boards on Xmen,Iron man, hulk, etc. while DC has boards on bats and supes.

 

[fifthfiend]

STOP MAKING POSTS IN THIS HORRIBLE THREAD!

 

[trustyside-kick]

I appreciate you listing out the list of villains you think are so-called great and developed in the MU, ShadowBoxing, even if you weren't directly responding to me...but isn't a huge factor in determining such a thing in tastes and preferences? Now, sure, there are some that you simply cannot deny...but I feel a majority of the list--were anyone to comply one--would be mainly of characters they seemed to be great.

That's why I disagree with the overall argument about one company finding more villains interesting than the other. No matter how hard you try, eventually it comes down to bias thinking.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I appreciate you listing out the list of villains you think are so-called great and developed in the MU, ShadowBoxing, even if you weren't directly responding to me...but isn't a huge factor in determining such a thing in tastes and preferences? Now, sure, there are some that you simply cannot deny...but I feel a majority of the list--were anyone to comply one--would be mainly of characters they seemed to be great.

That's why I disagree with the overall argument about one company finding more villains interesting than the other. No matter how hard you try, eventually it comes down to bias thinking.

Agreed, Shadow boxings argument is a "straw man".