JLA vs. The X-men

[Silicon Surfer]

Cyclops doesn't usually fight Wolverine in hth, he uses his optic blasts. He has combined hth with his optic blasts on one occasion when he had surprise on his side and Wolverine was rattled by Proteus. Cyclops is a well trained martial artist who knows Wolverine's fighting style and tactics extremely well but he can't win in strictly hth.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Well if there was no prior knowledge of Wolverine then Batman and Wolverine would be doing martial arts for about an hour, since Batman isn't the type of guy to stab or mutilate an enemy. Then when the time comes he is going to realize he is a regenerators and would have to use his intellect to knock wolverine out, like World War Hulk

Hulk has the benefit of extreme super strength. Batman would break his hands pretty quickly on Wolverine's skeleton.

 

[Flash Facts]

Is that the scan that is posted in this thread? What about every other opponent that has fought Wolverine do they all have super speed too?

Hulk has the benefit of extreme super strength. Batman would break his hands pretty quickly on Wolverine's skeleton.

Yea, I thought of that too. It would only take one punch for Batman to realize that he better keep his distance from Wolverine or he's toast.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Cyclops doesn't usually fight Wolverine in hth, he uses his optic blasts. He has combined hth with his optic blasts on one occasion when he had surprise on his side and Wolverine was rattled by Proteus. Cyclops is a well trained martial artist who knows Wolverine's fighting style and tactics extremely well but he can't win in strictly hth.

Also, the Wolverine of the Claremont/Bryne run held a distinctly different role on the team than he does now. Claremont originally wrote him as the runt of the team, even originally suggesting he was a mutated wolverine who wore unbreakable claw gloves. It was Bryne who pushed for further changes to the character, eventually turning him into the enigmatic fighter we know today. Claremont, by the eighties, following his rise in popularity, envisioned him as a fallen samurai. And by the time X-Men reached the 160s we officially saw a lot of these changes fully take hold. However, Cyclops still is effective in using his optic blasts and akido/judo against his opponents.

People also forget just how powerful Scott's blasts are. They have effectively destroyed Apocalypse's and Sinister's bodies in the past.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

One of the things that bug me about fights using Cyclops is that nobody pays attention to the fact that his beams do impact damage. That means that even if a foe like the Hulk is durable enough to take the blast without damage they are going to get knocked a considerable distance. Instead they have the Hulk walking into a continuous blast when he should get knocked miles away by a steady stream of force. The same thing occurs when Wolverine fought Spidey. They forgot that every punch Spidey threw should have knocked Wolvie for a couple of hundred yards. Apparently legislators in the MU repealed Newton's laws of motion.

 

[trustyside-kick]

At least with that Namor mini when he ***** slapped Wolvie around he went tumbling through buildings and ****. I like Wolvie but I loved seeing him get his ass handed to him. They, like DC has done with Batman, make him so much more than he is so many times.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

Hasn't both Punisher AND Daredevil stood up to Wolverine h2h? I hear that both of them did quite well in their matches respectively.

 

[November Rain]

Wolverine is to lower tier warriors what the hulk is to higher tier sluggers

you have a comic where you pit them up against them and make them win to sound cool.

unfortunately with regenerative hard core peeps like that, losing really doesn't mean much but they end up losing a lot of battles that they shouldn't and it gets counted against them.

 

[Rorschach II]

Hulk has the benefit of extreme super strength. Batman would break his hands pretty quickly on Wolverine's skeleton.

Didn't Wolverine get his adamantium ripped out by Magneto?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wolverine is to lower tier warriors what the hulk is to higher tier sluggers

you have a comic where you pit them up against them and make them win to sound cool.

unfortunately with regenerative hard core peeps like that, losing really doesn't mean much but they end up losing a lot of battles that they shouldn't and it gets counted against them.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day where someone actually argues that Wolverine is portrayed as underpowered.

Hasn't both Punisher AND Daredevil stood up to Wolverine h2h? I hear that both of them did quite well in their matches respectively.

I don't recall the Punisher fight, but Daredevil did beat an evil, Hand/HYDRA-controlled Wolverine in "Enemy of the State."

 

[Silicon Surfer]

A person with a healing factor really should not be able to lose to a normal human no matter how skilled. When you consider the beatings that normal humans take and then add in a healing factor as fast as Wolverine's was originally, martial arts and even pressure point and nerve strikes should not be effective. Even if they technically work, the healing factor should undo the effect before he can hit the floor.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Depends on the healing factor. Wolverine's healing factor used to just make him heal a bit faster than a normal human. Since then it's blown up into full-on regeneration and how fast he heals has jumped up to allowing him to recover from fatal wounds in seconds. With that sort of healing factor, I agree, no normal human should be able to put Wolverine down.

With the healing factor Wolverine had when he was a good character rather than a parody of himself, however, a good martial artist could feasibly outfight him if they stayed smart and went for nerve strike after nerve strike after nerve strike. He wouldn't stay down long, but he'd go down.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Yea...I still cringe at the panels of him coming back to life from pure bones with NO vital organs.

It's like they tried to make him more like Lobo.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Hasn't both Punisher AND Daredevil stood up to Wolverine h2h? I hear that both of them did quite well in their matches respectively.

DareDevil beat him twice. Once in 'Enemy of the State' and once in his own comic. DareDevil was pretty smart about it too. He crushed his windpipe. No air, no healing factor.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I forget...how recent is the "windpipe curshing" victory? I forget if I read that or not.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yea...I still cringe at the panels of him coming back to life from pure bones with NO vital organs.

It's like they tried to make him more like Lobo.

Irony of ironies.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

Even back in the first fight with the Hellfire Club Wolverine's healing factor was strong enough to deal with three assault rifles at 20-30 ft range. Wolverine cut them up so badly that they had to be turned into cyborgs to save their lives. They became the Reavers. Jahf hit Wolverine hard enough that he achieved escape velocity and he survived. Anyone who can take damage like that should not go down to a normal human no matter what. That was before the healing factor upgrade.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wolverine's healing factor has always been inconsistent. The majority of the time back then, Wolverine was not an unstoppable juggernaut with the ability to regenerate from a single cell like he is now.

 

[Damiean Dark]

The thing with characters in Marvel especially mutants is that there powers can evolve or mutate to another level look at marrow she can now fully control her bones,colossus went from a character who can press lift around 70 tons and is now in the 100 ton class, iceman was once just a guy who froze things but now his powers are some of the most powerful around, jean grey is on course to become the top psych on earth and wolverines regenertive powers have advanced from limited but powerful healing to being able to take slaps from the likes of the hulk.

 

[SalaciousVC]

Jla

 

[November Rain]

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day where someone actually argues that Wolverine is portrayed as underpowered.

It's not a real loss because there are usually circumstances around it but generally if you want someone to make an impact, you send them in against either the hulk or wolverine depending on their general levels.

it really has nothing to do with his power but the fact that wolverine can take a beating from almost anyone means he's a decent tool to use to compare people's fighting prowess.

but with the skills he possessess in a realistic light, he shouldn't have loss these confrontations, heck he shouldn't really have to use his healing factor at all (just like the other non-superstrength combatants that get through it just dandy).

 

[GL1]

It's not a real loss because there are usually circumstances around it but generally if you want someone to make an impact, you send them in against either the hulk or wolverine depending on their general levels.

it really has nothing to do with his power but the fact that wolverine can take a beating from almost anyone means he's a decent tool to use to compare people's fighting prowess.

but with the skills he possessess in a realistic light, he shouldn't have loss these confrontations, heck he shouldn't really have to use his healing factor at all (just like the other non-superstrength combatants that get through it just dandy).

Hmmm... I disagree, I think ALL Heroes are prone to this when they're not on the hotlist, and Hulk and Wolverine, because they're always favorites, are not picked on nearly as much as, say The Thing, who gets embarassed royally when he should not, or, y'know CYCLOPS, who even the writers downplay to make another/favorite character look cooler.

The concept that healing factor = instant win is flawed... there are plenty ways to end a fight with someone who heals, even someone who heals near-instantly, which Wolverine doesn't actually do. In all his previous fights, a crushed windpipe gives you at LEAST ten seconds to make your next move. Y'know, if it were anyone other than wolverine they'd be quite dead, btw.

And I really don't like versus threads because people love to harp on their favorite characters skills and end up pretending like the people they're fighting don't have any, as though there is no one who even comes close to Wolverine's fighting skills, when there are at least a half dozen people who match or exceed Wolverine -- yes, even despite his ageless samuraism and decades of experience

 

[Doc Destruction]

FYI - Punisher won the fight because he BLEW LOGAN'S FACE OFF with a shotgun.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hmmm... I disagree, I think ALL Heroes are prone to this when they're not on the hotlist, and Hulk and Wolverine, because they're always favorites, are not picked on nearly as much as, say The Thing, who gets embarassed royally when he should not, or, y'know CYCLOPS, who even the writers downplay to make another/favorite character look cooler.

I absolutely agree with that. Unpopular characters get downplayed by leaps and bounds in a lot of cases. Look at Gladiator. Dude was supposed to be Marvel's parallel to pre-Crisis Superman, yet he's lost to virtually everyone.

 

[November Rain]

Hmmm... I disagree, I think ALL Heroes are prone to this when they're not on the hotlist, and Hulk and Wolverine, because they're always favorites, are not picked on nearly as much as, say The Thing, who gets embarassed royally when he should not, or, y'know CYCLOPS, who even the writers downplay to make another/favorite character look cooler.

i'm not sure you get my point.

this is it

if say, you want to introduce a new powerhouse like the sentry and confirm their status as being hardcore, you put them up against the hulk and have them win.

if you want to breath life into an old existing character like say daredevil, you put him up against wolverine and have him win.

this is as these losses does not affect the fan base of wolverine or the hulk but helps give merits to new or flagging characters and helps increase their fanbase.

it's a win/win situation unless of course the deus ex machina method used in defeat.

now do you get what i'm trying to say.

When was the last time a new character went up against cyclops or the thing to prove their worth?