Joker- Full Spoiler Talk (SPOILERS)

[Hollis Mason]

A thing i love about this film is that it isn't your typical drama hollywood movie with a good feeling political message.

Poor people aren't saints, they are just as bad as the rich. The family friendly Murray Franklin mocks a poor mental ill person and yet has the decency to call himself not awful and ask for kindness, and act like a dark humor joke is a big deal when they did worse than that. Wayne is an *******, yet the people he claimed to be clowns are exactly that: monsters capable of killing a couple in front of their child and glorifying a serial killer. Yet the movie shows it's because they were desesperated and tired of being ignored by the world. There aren't really bad guys, but neither good guys on this film. Everyone has a reason to do what they do, and that's why Arthur said society decides what's right or wrong the same way they decide what's funny and not, yet both of them do terrible things. It isn't your typical modern film saying a side is good and mocking the other. It mocks both and shows how disgusting both can be. There's isn't right or wrong in this film, everyone is terrible, everyone is awful, everyone just wants to make themselves believe they are better than others or are doing good things, or in "good side", yet no one is.

Some may think that's too depressing and nihilistic view of the world, but i think it's perfect for a Joker movie. It isn't a good vs evil film, it's a film the Joker would love. i'ts basically his speech from TDK made into a movie: "They are only as good as the world allows them to be"
Even if i don't agree with what the movie says, i respect it actually is the film it wants to be and doesn't want to follow anything else.

 

[Pennywise]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but when the police car gets hit by the ambulance, there’s a billboard that says “Ace in the Hole”.

Nice! Didn’t notice that the first time!

 

[Schlosser85]

A thing i love about this film is that it isn't your typical drama hollywood movie with a good feeling political message.

Poor people aren't saints, they are just as bad as the rich. The family friendly Murray Franklin mocks a poor mental ill person and yet has the decency to call himself not awful and ask for kindness, and act like a dark humor joke is a big deal when they did worse than that. Wayne is an *******, yet the people he claimed to be clowns are exactly that: monsters capable of killing a couple in front of their child and glorifying a serial killer. Yet the movie shows it's because they were desesperated and tired of being ignored by the world. There aren't really bad guys, but neither good guys on this film. Everyone has a reason to do what they do, and that's why Arthur said society decides what's right or wrong the same way they decide what's funny and not, yet both of them do terrible things. It isn't your typical modern film saying a side is good and mocking the other. It mocks both and shows how disgusting both can be. There's isn't right or wrong in this film, everyone is terrible, everyone is awful, everyone just wants to make themselves believe they are better than others or are doing good things, or in "good side", yet no one is.

Some may think that's too depressing and nihilistic view of the world, but i think it's perfect for a Joker movie. It isn't a good vs evil film, it's a film the Joker would love. i'ts basically his speech from TDK made into a movie: "They are only as good as the world allows them to be"
Even if i don't agree with what the movie says, i respect it actually is the film it wants to be and doesn't want to follow anything else.

Murray probably didn't realize Arthur is mentally ill at the time he mocked his video clip, he probably just thought he was some nervous awkward guy who busted up laughing from stage fright or something.

I agree though, no one in the movie is a hero or really a villain either....except, by the end, Arthur himself.

 

[WereCoyote]

Have we already talked about this?

So what is the theory about the significance of the clocks, that Phillips and Phoenix are denying?

 

[The Guard]

That the time 11:11 is metaphorically significant or has symbolic significance as a number of/time of enlightening.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Excuse me for being late to the review party. I've been tracking Joker's box office results, and I'm overjoyed that WB has finally found a groove with DC properties. After 3 hits in a row, I might even have to stop calling them Warner Bumbles.

Joker is unique, at least from my perspective, in that it's the first time that I felt that a CBM exists better as a film in its own right than as a comic book adaptation. Arthur is a very different version of the titular character, and the film took some unnecessary liberties with the Batman mythos. However, it never winked at the camera, and it took risks that paid off in the end.

Joker isn't without its flaws, especially in the beginning. We're introduced to a guy who lacks common sense and gets to butt handed to him by a group of kids. Wow, that was a rocky start. The narrative also took its sweet time in showing us glimpses of the villain lurking underneath the mental illness. While it was necessary to show Joker's pre-crime life as being a series of personal letdowns and tragedies, ala the Killing Joke, he didn't need to be quite so pathetic.

Phoenix was just amazing in this. He looked emaciated and sickly, which was perfect for an unsettling character. The flowery, ostentatious movements were strokes of genius. Likewise, the scene where he changed writing hands to demonstrate the duality within him was a perfect visual that advanced the narrative.

I'm a huge fan of Zazie Beetz, and she did a magnificent job as Sophie. I stayed away from spoilers for this movie, so even though I suspected that something was a little off about their relationship, the scene where Arthur broke into her apartment was another brilliant moment that surprised me. It went a great distance in showing how crippling his loneliness was and how his delusions could make him dangerous beyond just acting when there was a perceived or real threat to him.

My biggest issue with the film was the treatment of Thomas Wayne. The idea of an estranged father and mentally ill mother was a good idea for setting up Arthur's villainous transformation, but Phillips and Silver didn't need to pull Thomas into that. Moreover, the only moment in the movie that made less sense than Arthur chasing after a sale sign as if it were the Ark of the Covenant was Thomas deciding to take his family to the movies in the middle of a riot. Ugh.

On a personal note, there was one moment that stood out to me as speaking volumes. When Arthur's social worker (I don't remember if they ever named her?) told him about the budget cuts, she said something along the lines of "They don't care about people like you, and they don't care about people like me either." WOW, there's some painful truth in that. Speaking as someone who has been working in the mental health field for over 20 years, I've had very similar thoughts at times. A coworker once said to me that as social workers, we're expected to put out fires with a thimble full of water on a daily basis and no one cares until we fail.

I still think Joker missed some opportunities to be even better, but its success is a good omen for the future of CBMs outside of the MCU. There is still so much terrain in comic book history that hasn't been explored on film, and Joker is proof that positive outcomes can happen even outside of the usual CBM formulas.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I personally dont think being different from the source material is exactly a flaw that makes the movie less good.

And by calling Arthur pathetic, you are basically being the same kind of person this movie criticizes, imo. He was a lonely mental ill man being abused. That isnt pathetic. Its pretty tragic.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I personally dont think being different from the source material is exactly a flaw that makes the movie less good.

And by calling Arthur pathetic, you are basically being the same kind of person this movie criticizes, imo. He was a lonely mental ill man being abused. That isnt pathetic. Its pretty tragic.

"Pathetic" was what the movie was clearly trying to portray. Joker is usually a genius with a myriad of street smarts. He's also a poke-your-eyes, grab-your-crotch, smash-your knee brawler. Arthur was the opposite of both of those, and those aspects were completely independent of his MI.

Being radically from the source material isn't necessarily a crime, but it is never easy for a fan to adjust expectations. The name "Joker" implies a level of irrationality, cruelty, and morbid resilience. Arthur had only begun to exhibit those traits when the movie was through telling its tale.

 

[Hollis Mason]

"Pathetic" was what the movie was clearly trying to portray. Joker is usually a genius with a myriad of street smarts. He's also a poke-your-eyes, grab-your-crotch, smash-your knee brawler. Arthur was the opposite of both of those, and those aspects were completely independent of his MI.

Being radically from the source material isn't necessarily a crime, but it is never easy for a fan to adjust expectations. The name "Joker" implies a level of irrationality, cruelty, and morbid resilience. Arthur had only begun to exhibit those traits when the movie was through telling its tale.

Well, of course. It's an origin story. Also it's a tragedy of a man becoming evil. If you started the movie with him being evil it wouldn't be as good or emotional as it is.

Also, movie wasn't showing him as pathetic, but as sad and tragic and realistic to how mental ill people struggle. I don't think getting beaten in an alley makes you pathetic, or getting bullied and mocked. Isn't lije Arthur is asking for it. Arthur is a mental ill man that keeps getting abused. That's one of the themes of the film itseñf: how we see mental ill people. The movie slams those who see them as pathetic and weak instead of people with problems that need help. So you clearly mosuderstood what the movie wants you to take from it. When it shows him struggling and getting abused, that's how mental ill people struggle every day. So by calling him pathetic you are saying th3 same thing every person said to Arthur in the movie. Personally, i never felt they potrayed Arthur as pathetic, but just as a very sad and depressed man trying to be loved, and the irony of the film is that he only gets that love, he only gets to be seen as "cool" (and not weak or pathetic) when he's the worst version of hilmself. That's why the "the worst part of having a mental illness is people expect you to behave as if you don't"

You are judging the quality of the film according to how loyal it is to the comics. But this movie doesn't want to be loyal, it wants to be an original take. This isn't your mastermind flashy cb villain amd doesn't want to be. This is a version of the Joker thst could exist in our world. It's more than a comic book movie, or a comic book adaptation Its a study of how people like that could exist, and why they couls exist.

I understand some may not like that, but it isnt different from any other elseworld story, so i dont really have problems with it, tbh. Agree to disagree.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Well, of course. It's an origin story. Also it's a tragedy of a man becoming evil. If you started the movie with him being evil it wouldn't be as good or emotional as it is.

Also, movie wasn't showing him as pathetic, but as sad and tragic and realistic to how mental ill people struggle. I don't think getting beaten in an alley makes you pathetic, or getting bullied and mocked. Isn't lije Arthur is asking for it. Arthur is a mental ill man that keeps getting abused. That's one of the themes of the film itseñf: how we see mental ill people. The movie slams those who see them as pathetic and weak instead of people with problems that need help. So you clearly mosuderstood what the movie wants you to take from it. When it shows him struggling and getting abused, that's how mental ill people struggle every day. So by calling him pathetic you are saying th3 same thing every person said to Arthur in the movie. Personally, i never felt they potrayed Arthur as pathetic, but just as a very sad and depressed man trying to be loved, and the irony of the film is that he only gets that love, he only gets to be seen as "cool" (and not weak or pathetic) when he's the worst version of hilmself. That's why the "the worst part of having a mental illness is people expect you to behave as if you don't"

You are judging the quality of the film according to how loyal it is to the comics. But this movie doesn't want to be loyal, it wants to be an original take. This isn't your mastermind flashy cb villain amd doesn't want to be. This is a version of the Joker thst could exist in our world. It's more than a comic book movie, or a comic book adaptation Its a study of how people like that could exist, and why they couls exist.

I understand some may not like that, but it isnt different from any other elseworld story, so i dont really have problems with it, tbh. Agree to disagree.

There are plenty of people in the DC Universe who are just as sick as Arthur
( Thom Kallor, Jack Ryder, Jessica Cruz to name a few) but they don't become what Joker does. What makes him a villain is independent of his illness, and the film took its sweet time (too long) to get there. Arthur's actions were just a little too logical until the end.

But "Elseworlds" is exactly what I began to think of after seeing how cold and elitist Thomas Wayne was. I would have preferred a more traditional dynamic, but I can still appreciate the final product.

 

[Captain Tired]

Do people not remember when the Joker was a pencil necked dweeb who couldn't support his pregnant wife in The Killing Joke?

 

[Schlosser85]

"Pathetic" was what the movie was clearly trying to portray. Joker is usually a genius with a myriad of street smarts. He's also a poke-your-eyes, grab-your-crotch, smash-your knee brawler. Arthur was the opposite of both of those, and those aspects were completely independent of his MI.

Being radically from the source material isn't necessarily a crime, but it is never easy for a fan to adjust expectations. The name "Joker" implies a level of irrationality, cruelty, and morbid resilience. Arthur had only begun to exhibit those traits when the movie was through telling its tale.

He's irrational from the get-go. And he's showing cruelty way before the end. The first two guys on the subway are arguably self-defense, but he hunts the wounded third one down and executes him like a dog. And then dances about it, goes marching down the hall more confidently than ever, and bangs his fake fantasy girlfriend (in his dreams). Killing someone obviously gets him amped up. Same as later when he brutally murders Randall and then goes prancing down the steps.

 

[The Endless]

When he actually embraced the Joker, the change in him was clearly apparent. Him whipping his head back and smoking the cigarette on the stairs was bad ass. He looked cool as hell. As was his casual walk past the cops coming out of the subway. And his entrance onto the talk show. He had all this within him even as Arthur. But fully embracing Joker, allowed him to release all that pain and hate and violence stored within him.

I could totally see him continue to evolve into the charismatic Clown Prince of Crime.

And that's the thing... what actually is the Joker? A mobster? A mass murdering psychopath? A genius criminal mastermind? An agent of chaos who is targets the "establishment" He can be any and all of those things.

What could this particular Joker evolve into? That's the big question. And I'm sure that is what Phoenix is referencing when he suggested him and Phillip's would talk more about him.

Me personally, I could see this Joker being almost a vigilante, on the surface. Someone who could hold the city hostage with a poison plot or something. Using his charisma to get support from the down trodden. Targeting the elite of society. But really, he doesn't give a **** about the down trodden. It would all be a facade. He just wants to cause chaos and fear and death for ****s and giggles.

 

[Schlosser85]

When he actually embraced the Joker, the change in him was clearly apparent. Him whipping his head back and smoking the cigarette on the stairs was bad ass. He looked cool as hell. As was his casual walk past the cops coming out of the subway. And his entrance onto the talk show. He had all this within him even as Arthur. But fully embracing Joker, allowed him to release all that pain and hate and violence stored within him.

I could totally see him continue to evolve into the charismatic Clown Prince of Crime.

And that's the thing... what actually is the Joker? A mobster? A mass murdering psychopath? A genius criminal mastermind? An agent of chaos who is targets the "establishment" He can be any and all of those things.

What could this particular Joker evolve into? That's the big question. And I'm sure that is what Phoenix is referencing when he suggested him and Phillip's would talk more about him.

Me personally, I could see this Joker being almost a vigilante, on the surface. Someone who could hold the city hostage with a poison plot or something. Using his charisma to get support from the down trodden. Targeting the elite of society. But really, he doesn't give a ****. It would all be a facade. He just wants to cause chaos and fear and death for ****s and giggles.

I loved Phoenix's dancing body language when he goes more into Joker mode, and how he physically transforms over the course of the movie. At first he drags himself up the steps like he barely has the energy/motivation to get up them. Later he's prancing energetically down them (symbolic of his descent into madness?).

And yea, there's something eerily mesmerizing about his performance. It definitely has a kind of perverse charisma.

 

[The Endless]

I loved Phoenix's dancing body language when he goes more into Joker mode, and how he physically transforms over the course of the movie. At first he drags himself up the steps like he barely has the energy/motivation to get up them. Later he's prancing energetically down them (symbolic of his descent into madness?).

And yea, there's something eerily mesmerizing about his performance. It definitely has a kind of perverse charisma.

Exactly. It was a complete performance from Phoenix. We all know he is one of the best actors, maybe ever. But it really was next level.

And yea he was charismatic as hell as Joker. Even the little smirk in the elevator. So cool. And the dance he does on the subway when the cops are getting stomped on. That's the Joker! I loved how Phillip's and Phoenix incorporated the dancing into the performance. The dance on the stairs was pure cartharsis for him. It was him evolving before our very eyes. Brilliant.

 

[Hollis Mason]

"Arthur mas music on his soul" remember that. They did that part beautifully.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I read something interesting. King Arthur, as the Joker character, doesn't have an established origin story. It has many. However, from what i know (I may be wrong here since i heard this story a long time ago in class), one of his stories potrays him as the illegitimate son of uther Pendragon, a king defender of people. King Arthur as an adult takes the throne that belongs to him.

I may be reading too much on this, but i saw the analysis on a newspaper from my city. King Arthur is seen as a symbol of peace. Joker, at the end of the movie, is the symbol of anarchy, freedom, and fight against the rich. The movie seems to be a parody of the King Arthur's myth. Arthur thinks he's the illegitimate son of Thomas Wayne, but it's all bs. He is a nobody. Yet he still becomes the "King" of Gotham (Or Prince of Crime), but only to create anarchy and chaos. And his Excalibur would be his gun, which is the one that made him the symbol of rage and revolution.

Idk if that is true but it's a pretty cool symbolism if real. There are many other references that i read, but i just posted the general thing. Article was pretty long. May try to take a pic and translate it.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Like I said before, if this Joker ever fought Batman, I’d like a bit similar to The Killing Joke where Batman calls him out and basically says “maybe it was just you”, which is also very similar to the bit in The Dark Knight after he can’t get the ferry passengers to blow each other up, when Batman says “what were you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone’s as ugly as you?”.

The perfect bridge to this film and an eventual part 3 where Bruce is old enough to wear the cowl would be an encounter between Joker and Creeper. Even if Ryder's abilities weren't touched for the sake of realism, he's still a natural rival for Joker. Ryder could present the flip side of living with mental illness, in that society wrongly perceives everyone who is struggling with MI as dangerous. He could confront Arthur and accuse him of excusing his violent impulses and/or Ryder could be offended that Arthur killed a talk show host.

 

[Greenlite]

I Finally caught the film last night, the score was amazing, one of the most memorable CBM scores since Hans Zimmers' for me, Joaquin was amazing, I take that he's getting praises since playing in all these film festivals that his Oscar chance is legitimate and not us talking in our fanboy bubbles?

I saw those new Star Wars and Rogue One and terminator movies on TVlast week and for some reason I was just numb to the big action set pieces, maybe it's fatigue set in, but the thrill and adrenaline I got from the 3rd act reminded me of TDK, where the most intense scene for me was actually the showdown of Dent, Bat and Gordon, and I hope after this film we start to get back to that with the DC Black label or if it's all loosely connected, we get the character studies and thrill scenes with character interactions rather than fist fights, like, 90% of Hollywood action villains suck because they get nailed quickly at the end, where most have strength that actually lies with their ideology and values that can cause a greater interaction with the heroes.

I thought the ending was just immediately after Arthur's capture but looking at the clock and how much older he got, and the fact that the director explicitly jumps to the Wayne murder image when Arthur said its a joke that the therapist wouldn't get, the original script of "its between me and him," and his cold blooded murder right after, I am choosing to believe that this is the Joker dumped into the Arkham Asylum by Batman and he is telling the therapist his account of how he became the Joker, with delusional scenes pointed out by the director, but the reality has to be taken with a grain of salt as well, e.g was Thomas Wayne really a prick?

 

[Greenlite]

*sorry long post so splitting it up to avoid a wall of texts*

Could Arthur become the Joker that can challenge Batman? I am sure he can, he clearly evolved from someone low on confidence and introvert, a nobody, to the symbol of an uprising for the poor, and getting more efficient and bold with his crimes, and his mental illness becomes his free pass to the asylum. A mask, costume, persona can influence how a person behave, like when you wear your no.1 suit for a date, or a big occasion, or a team jersey that represent your country, compared to wearing pajamas. He is not dumb, he might not be the smartest, but he is very unpredictable, has nothing to lose, and very persistent when he thinks someone does him wrong, and Batman would be on the top of the list.

When the film became a multiple choice, this opens up the possibility of anything, Joaquin said he wold be interested in dong another one and explore where to go from here, I would be fine with it as a one off, but if he is keen then I would prefer him to be integrated into the Matt Reeves Batman rather than a direct sequel, because I don't know where he is gonna go in a sequel, unless he meets the Bat, which would be interesting if the same creative team gives it a crack, but if he has already had his backstory done, it's time for him to do the full fledge Joker and have Batman maybe in his second or third film trying to stop him. Matt is brilliant with the Apes franchise and if RP and JP crossover the commercial side would be insane and creatively it can work with the talents involved. They don't even need many biggest pieces, just those two battling each other is enough.

 

[Greenlite]

*Final points*

Saw an article about the cinematographer saying Philips told her explicitly that Sophie didn't die in the film, and how she used different color palates for illusions and reality? Anyone picked up on that and analyzed it?

I personally like the evolution angle better than the double personality theory.

I realized the dark humor they were going for when Arthur started stabbing Rondo, it was pretty funny but I was way too concerned for the little guy's survival that I didn't laugh or anything, it got pretty funny when he asked Arthur to open the door for him though, while the tension was still there.

It's a bit funny to see some repetitive comments about how this is an illusion and unreliable narrative by the Joker, then the next statement is Thomas Wayne is a d***. Surely TW"s personality cannot be defined by Joker's narrative.

 

[ironwez20]

Anybody else run into people saying this isn’t a DC movie cause it’s not the joker they recognize in the comics? It’s rather annoying

 

[Greenlite]

Anybody else run into people saying this isn’t a DC movie cause it’s not the joker they recognize in the comics? It’s rather annoying

Haven't been looking for them but they are the "not muh Joker" crowd that craps on about every new version out there?

WB explicitly showed the big blue DC sign in the credit, the Wayne murders, easter eggs, Joker smoking before the show and his big act on stage, comedian trial, relationship with a woman who has a child though with a twist. These people are just in denial.

 

[shauner111]

The most Joker thing in the movie was when he’s in that crowded subway and pushes one guy, taking his mask...the guy goes to punch him and hits another guy instead. The way Phoenix moves out of the way, and just lets them fight, walking backwards, looking on as chaos ensues. Puts the mask on. It’s perfection.

Also, the little dance he makes after shooting Murray, right before he struts to the cameras.

Oh and the best bit of acting from Joaquin, was immediately after shooting Murray. The side shot of his face, shaking with a smile on his face. Amazing.

It would be a missed opportunity not to make The Batman set in the late 90’s, so we can see him pop up in a Reeves Bat sequel.

 

[ironwez20]

Yea some dude was convinced this movie wasn’t a DC movie