Jurassic World - Part 10

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Claire was a textbook example of the archetype of the Type-A career woman whose choice to put her career first leaves her no time for family and incapable of sustaining any kind of love life. And that is a classic sexist archetype. It wouldn't fall into that archetype if this choice was portrayed in a positive manner, but no, we are meant to feel that something is "wrong" with Claire due to this life she has chosen, which must be straightened out over the course of the adventure. It's an archetype created by men decades ago when women started entering the work place en masse, men who clearly didn't think women capable of "having it all" (work, family, etc) like men do, whether they wanted to admit it or not, as this was their take on the "modern woman." It probably wasn't intentionally sexist on their parts, but it is what it is.

Men CAN write great female characters, and have. They just very often don't, and this movie was an example of that. I loved the movie, but the writing of its characters is not a reason why, lol.
 
Claire was a textbook example of the archetype of the Type-A career woman whose choice to put her career first leaves her no time for family and incapable of sustaining any kind of love life. And that is a classic sexist archetype. It wouldn't fall into that archetype if this choice was portrayed in a positive manner, but no, we are meant to feel that something is "wrong" with Claire due to this life she has chosen, which must be straightened out over the course of the adventure. It's an archetype created by men decades ago when women started entering the work place en masse, men who clearly didn't think women capable of "having it all" (work, family, etc) like men do, whether they wanted to admit it or not, as this was their take on the "modern woman." It probably wasn't intentional on their parts, but it is what it is.

Men CAN write great female characters. They just very often don't, and this movie was an example of that. I loved the movie, but the writing of its characters is not a reason why, lol.
You put it far better then I did.
 
Sexism or no, frankly I didn't care either way. I wasn't there to see her so I really didn't care enough about her character to analyze it that deeply. Pratt was fine and I'm glad he at least at times could shed some of the Star Lordiness from his performance to give us something that approached the level of being a different character. And the 2 kids were annoying as most child actors are(the younger one in particular with his mommy/daddy issues...NO ONE CARES, KID! GET BACK TO THE BLOODY DINO-MURDER-SPREE!). D'Onofrio and company were fairly silly and frankly their whole subplot was a waste of time and...wait, how in the hell did I give this a 7/10 again? It seems the more I think about it the less I like it. This is totally a turn-you-brain-off movie I guess. Analysis ain't helping it. Many of the dino kill sequences were fine and all but that's about all I can applaud about it.
 
They are on the same page, right under my post.

I see one person. Not three. And the argument wasn't that good.

The stereotype is sexist.

Explain why, in the context of what sexist actually means.

You seem unfamiliar with it, but it isn't something new. This is not about being a serious business person. It is about how a serious business woman is portrayed.

I'm not unfamiliar with the stereotype.

I'm unsure why you think it is inherently sexist in the context of this film.

I fail to see any point in the film where the idea of a serious businesswoman or what it takes for a woman to be a businesswoman is even addressed. The issue is her relation to the animals in the park because of her role as overseer of the park and her general empathy VS obsession with profit.

She is a stereotype of a "serious business woman" prevalent throughout film and culture.

This I will agree with, but this honestly only amounts to the statement "This is a type of stereotype that exists". There are many stereotypes that exist, and unless a film is REINFORCING them directly, I don't find that particularly harmful.

This film does nothing to actually reinforce negative gender stereotypes. It presents these elements as a positive attribute that has a cost in her life.

Just like in real life. The struggle between personal empathy, relationships and the focus business and success requires is a real one, and often depicted in film.

A serious business woman must be cold, stiff, incapable of having fun. That she must lose "traditional" feminine traits to becomes successful, and thus in the process becomes a person you don't want to be around.

1. Where in the movie is this even suggested?

All that is shown is that THIS businesswoman is. At no point in the movie is it shown or suggested that ALL businesswomen must be or are this.

This isn't SERIOUS BUSINESSWOMEN: THE MOVIE. It's JURASSIC WORLD. The fact that a single character has these traits does not mean that the movie is suggesting all businesswomen must.

2. "traditional feminine traits" strikes me, in itself, as a sexist idea".

3. The "cold businessperson" in general is rampant in cinema. To borrow your phrasing, you seem unfamliar with it, but it isn't something new.

These kind of stereotypes have been used over the years to insult and condemn women in general. That is why it is sexist, that is why it is a problem.

That's not the definition of sexist, though. You can insult and condemn a group of people without being sexist in the least.

I have literally never seen anyone, anywhere suggest that women are all stiff, cold businesswomen.

Please explain how this movie insults and condemns women as a group because its character, a single example of a personality, happens to come across a stiff and cold AT FIRST (nevermind that she's obviously not actually stiff and cold and only concerned with profit by the end of the movie).

It is because of who the character is before the incident. As if it would be impossible for her to be loving, caring and brave before the incident.

Umm...no.

At no point does anyone, be it the character or the characters around her, suggest this. None of her actions suggest this.

I see a woman who doesn't like kids or feels awkward around them. I see a woman who flirts/trades professional blows with a man she went out with once during one interaction.

I don't see any suggestion that it would be "impossible" for her to be loving, caring or brave. Nowhere is this remotely suggested in the film. She's presented as incredibly capable, if driven, from the word "go". She's also presented as fairly likable, with a sense of humor.
 
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Are you going to ignore history? The struggle for women 40 and over to get prominent staring roles? The massive age gap between many male leads and their co-stars? The lack of female leads in general, especially in blockbusters?

What does that have to do with JURASSIC WORLD or the conversation we've been having about a specific character's portrayal?

I didn't realize we were discussing:

1. history

2. the stuggle women have getting roles

3. age gaps

4. lack of female leads (which isn't really true anyway in such a broad sense).

And I'm not sure what that has to do with this character and her portrayal or the conversation we've been having about it.

I am not saying you are sexist, or anyone here is sexist. But that it is easy to miss and dismiss things that don't apply to you.

Except that no one here has said "sexism doesn't matter".

We have said "That is not actually sexism". There's a difference.

If the stereotype is inherently sexist, then yes the stereotype is sexist.

The stereotype isn't inherently sexist, though. Not as it is used in this film.

Context is important.

In this film, her status as a businessperson is not inherently tied to her being a woman. Nor are the decisions she makes because of it tied to her being a woman.

That might make for an interesting prequel, but that's not whats in this film.

If you reversed the roles of Owen and Claire, they would not play out the same way. A way too serious businessman is not portrayed the same way as a way too serious businesswoman.

That seems like a rather abstract statement to make. I don't see why they couldn't play out the same way.

I've seen a ton of movies where a handsome, successful man doesn't like kids and has some empathy issues until a crisis brings out the best in him.

And an alpha female raptor trainer would be pretty badass.
 
I thought JW's meta message of escalation is so true. We went to Florida and the only rides that interested us were the brand new rides at Universal. So it a few years and even those rides will be considered tame.
 
Claire was a textbook example of the archetype of the Type-A career woman whose choice to put her career first leaves her no time for family and incapable of sustaining any kind of love life. And that is a classic sexist archetype.

At no point does the film suggest that she is incapable of sustaining any kind of love life. We cannot make this assumption based on the information we are given. The film shows that she and OWEN had some issues because of their differences. Not that she and all men have.

And the film certainly makes no commentary about "all women" or "because she is a woman".

Whether it is a sexist archetype or not depends on the context, in how it is used. In other words, for something to be sexist, it must be presented in a sexist manner.

prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Again, show me where any of these things occur in the film, directly on the basis of her sex.

If someone says "All businesswomen are like this", or implies it, then yes, its at that point sexist. Because these traits are then being attributed to all women or as occurring because she is a woman.

If that's just how the character is, given the thematic demands of the movie? Nope.

It wouldn't fall into that archetype if this choice was portrayed in a positive manner, but no, we are meant to feel that something is "wrong" with Claire due to this life she has chosen, which must be straightened out over the course of the adventure.

But we are never made to feel that she is wrong because she is a WOMAN who is acting like this. If you come out of the movie with that, then that is your own sexist baggage talking. The filmmakers never present us with this.

Its shortsighted and intellectually dishonest to believe that she only has these traits just because she is a woman.

These traits are not inherently tied to the fact that she is a woman in the film. They are tied to her general lack of empathy and pursuit of profit because of her job and its demands, not because she is a woman who has this job.

It's an archetype created by men decades ago when women started entering the work place en masse, men who clearly didn't think women capable of "having it all" (work, family, etc) like men do, whether they wanted to admit it or not, as this was their take on the "modern woman." It probably wasn't intentionally sexist on their parts, but it is what it is.

Here's the thing...there ARE a lot of women like this out there. There ARE a lot of men like this out there. As I said, its a struggle that some people have had for a long time regarding success and business.

Are they themselves sexist because they exist with those personalities?

No. Because again, context and presentation are important.

Men CAN write great female characters, and have. They just very often don't, and this movie was an example of that. I loved the movie, but the writing of its characters is not a reason why, lol.

Men and women alike often don't write great male OR female characters. Its got less to do with the gender, and more to do with the quality of writing.

Owen isn't a great character, either, by most standards, and the same writer/writers wrote him. But he is also completely cliche and cardboard.
 
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I see one person. Not three. And the argument wasn't that good.
Read flickchick85's response then. She put it quite well.

Explain why, in the context of what sexist actually means.
A negative portray of one of the sexes.

I'm not unfamiliar with the stereotype.

I'm unsure why you think it is inherently sexist in the context of this film.

I fail to see any point in the film where the idea of a serious businesswoman or what it takes for a woman to be a businesswoman is even addressed. The issue is her relation to the animals in the park because of her role as overseer of the park and her general empathy VS obsession with profit.
Do you think they brought up her status as single, incapable of dating the awesome guy, or that she couldn't remember her nephews age for no reason? That she hadn't seen them in years and had no time for them?

Her inability to empathize with the dinos is a beautiful example of this. She is cold and stiff, incapable of being a caring person while be business driven.

This I will agree with, but this honestly only amounts to the statement "This is a type of stereotype that exists". There are many stereotypes that exist, and unless a film is REINFORCING them directly, I don't find that particularly harmful.

This film does nothing to actually reinforce negative gender stereotypes. It presents these elements as a positive attribute that has a cost in her life.

Just like in real life. The struggle between personal empathy, relationships and the focus business and success requires is a real one, and often depicted in film.
The stereotype is sexist. That is the point.

1. Where in the movie is this even suggested?

All that is shown is that THIS businesswoman is. At no point in the movie is it shown or suggested that ALL businesswomen must be or are this.

This isn't SERIOUS BUSINESSWOMEN: THE MOVIE. It's JURASSIC WORLD. The fact that a single character has these traits does not mean that the movie is suggesting all businesswomen must.

2. "traditional feminine traits" strikes me, in itself, as a sexist idea".

3. The "cold businessperson" in general is rampant in cinema. To borrow your phrasing, you seem unfamliar with it, but it isn't something new.
Who said the entire movie was about this subject? The question is whether the stereotypical archetype is sexist. Which I am pointing out, it is.

The "traditional feminine trait" point, has to do with how suddenly, once she is cured of being a stiff, unlikable business woman, her mind is set to having a relationship and wanting kids. Actually a beautiful comparison is Grant in the first JP.

That's not the definition of sexist, though. You can insult and condemn a group of people without being sexist in the least.

I have literally never seen anyone, anywhere suggest that women are all stiff, cold businesswomen.

Please explain how this movie insults and condemns women as a group because its character, a single example of a personality, happens to come across a stiff and cold AT FIRST (nevermind that she's obviously not actually stiff and cold and only concerned with profit by the end of the movie).
The resolution suggest there is something wrong with her being driven in the first place, which is the problem.

Umm...no.

At no point does anyone, be it the character or the characters around her, suggest this. None of her actions suggest this.

I see a woman who doesn't like kids or feels awkward around them. I see a woman who flirts/trades professional blows with a man she went out with once during one interaction.

I don't see any suggestion that it would be "impossible" for her to be loving, caring or brave. Nowhere is this remotely suggested in the film. She's presented as incredibly capable, if driven, from the word "go". She's also presented as fairly likable, with a sense of humor.
Yes, one who ignores her nephews, doesn't know their ages and couldn't make a second date with Captain Awesome is presented as fairly likable. Which is why she needed to change before the end, to considered bet
 
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Read flickchick85's response them. She put it quite well.

A negative portray of one of the sexes.

It's not a negative portrayal of the sex. Nothing about her character is tied to her sex in this movie. It's a negative portrayal of the priorities of a successful businessperson.

Do you think they brought up her status as single, incapable of dating the awesome guy, or that she couldn't remember her nephews age for no reason? That she hadn't seen them in years and had no time for them?

No. Those things were brought up to show where her priorities lay.

That is not, in itself sexist.

Her inability to empathize with the dinos is a beautiful example of this. She is cold and stiff, incapable of being a caring person while be business driven.

And again, this is not inherently sexist, either.

You said it yourself "Incapable of being a caring person while being business driven".

Not "incapable of being a caring person because she is a female".

The stereotype is sexist. That is the point.

It's not always sexist, though. It depends on the presentation, and the intended meaning by whoever presents it.

The "traditional feminine trait" point, has to do with how suddenly, once she is cured of a stiff, unlikable business woman, her mind is set to having a relationship and wanting kids. Actually a beautiful comparison is Grant in the first JP.

I must have missed the scene where she suddenly decides she wants kids.

Or how wanting to have a relationship is sexist.

The resolution suggest there is something wrong with her being driven in the first place, which is the problem.

No it doesn't.

It suggests that there is more to life THAN being driven to succeed in business.

Yes, one who ignores her nephews, doesn't know their ages and couldn't make a second date with Captain Awesome is presented as fairly likable. Which is why she needed to change before the end, to considered bet

None of those things are inherently sexist.

She doesn't ignore her nephews. She didn't have much time for them due to the demands of her schedule, and didn't make them a priority. She arranges a tour guide for them. That's not the same thing as ignoring someone.
 
It's not a negative portrayal of the sex. Nothing about her character is tied to her sex in this movie. It's a negative portrayal of the priorities of a successful businessperson.



No. Those things were brought up to show where her priorities lay.

That is not, in itself sexist.



And again, this is not inherently sexist, either.

You said it yourself "Incapable of being a caring person while being business driven".

Not "incapable of being a caring person because she is a female".



It's not always sexist, though. It depends on the presentation, and the intended meaning by whoever presents it.



I must have missed the scene where she suddenly decides she wants kids.

Or how wanting to have a relationship is sexist.



No it doesn't.

It suggests that there is more to life THAN being driven to succeed in business.



None of those things are inherently sexist.

She doesn't ignore her nephews. She didn't have much time for them due to the demands of her schedule, and didn't make them a priority. She arranges a tour guide for them. That's not the same thing as ignoring someone.
I am not going to go line by line, because there is no point. You are ignoring the very obvious elephant riding a tricycle in the room.

Claire's character is based on a sexist archetype. In a vacuum does it matter if she knows her nephews ages, can't date the awesome badass because she is too stiff, or hasn't seen her family in 7 years? No. But we don't live in a vacuum. We live in a world where this very archetype was created to deter women from becoming business women.
 
Can you get off your god damn high horse for once?
 
Weird, isn't it, that many of her character traits are very common with "busy cold businessman" archetypes in film, and are not traits constrained to female characters?

Must just be an incredible coincidence.

An incredible, incredible coincidence.

Anyway, show me where this archetype was created to deter women from entering the workforce, then show me that this particular writer used the character for the same reasons, or to demean women as a group, or to condemn women in the workforce, etc. Because unless you can do that, then no, you cannot prove your claims that this character is inherently sexist or intended to be.
 
I thought JW's meta message of escalation is so true. We went to Florida and the only rides that interested us were the brand new rides at Universal. So it a few years and even those rides will be considered tame.

I don't know if escalation is what they were going for so much as the fickleness of modern audiences...though clearly the two can exist simultaneously. Treverow said his inspiration for this movie was the image of a child sitting in front of some natural living wonder at a theme park and the child can't be bothered to look up at it from his cell phone which has all of his attention.
 
What does this even mean? How is this being on a high horse?

Because you think you're on this moral high ground by pointing out what you perceive as something sexist and you don't like it when other don't agree with that opinion. You want to be right.
 
Weird, isn't it, that many of her character traits are very common with "busy cold businessman" archetypes in film, and are not traits constrained to female characters?

Must just be an incredible coincidence.

An incredible, incredible coincidence.

Anyway, show me where this archetype was created to deter women from entering the workforce, then show me that this particular writer used the character for the same reasons, or to demean women as a group, or to condemn women in the workforce, etc. Because unless you can do that, then no, you cannot prove your claims that this character is inherently sexist or intended to be.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennago...rful-women-christine-lagarde-hillary-clinton/

No one is saying they set out to write a sexist character. Just that the character ended up being a sexist stereotype. And them doing it unconsciously as actually to be expected.
A relatively neglected factor is the role of stereotypes, reinforced by social and cultural norms, which underline certain expectations about gender. Decades of research has shown that stereotypes about men and women have a huge impact on our beliefs about how they should (or should not) behave. Consequently gender stereotypes reinforce social status and gender hierarchies: for example, surveys and experiments show that women are generally perceived as more "communal" and "loyal", whereas men are described more as "protectors" and "competent". Of course not everyone subscribes to these stereotypes, but there is evidence that men and women who behave in ways that contrast with these traditional stereotypes – such as career women or stay-at-home dads – are likely to be evaluated negatively by others. A lifetime of exposure to what women should be, how they should behave and who they should represent drives and reinforces unconscious and unseen biases.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...nder-equality-women-stereotypes-stop-progress
 
The thing about Claire is that she is so thinly drawn and cartoonish to the point where I can understand why she'd be perceived as sexist. Which is why I don't care about the criticisms and thinks the character deserves them. I doubt Trevorrow woke up one morning and said, "How are we gonna set women back today?" It's okay to explore female characters like Claire as an archetype, but they should just be more nuanced and have dimension to them, because some people/women can actually be like that. Just for the love of God, make it subtle and give it humanity and empathy and handle it with care and you can actually see a very interesting character who can evolve.
 
Frankly, focusing on one characters pretty much ignores the main issue with this film, that the entire cast of characters are terrible. They are all badly written and badly developed.
 
Because you think you're on this moral high ground by pointing out what you perceive as something sexist and you don't like it when other don't agree with that opinion. You want to be right.
I don't want to be right, the reason I am arguing the point is because I believe I am right. Now if you want to disagree, that is your right. But I try my best not to insult anyone else while doing it. Which is the idea here. When asked to stop by the mods, I do.
 

I don't know why you posted that article. This film never really said or showed Claire being any of these things.

I wouldn't describe her as an ice queen.. And she didn't strike me as particularly angry, emotional, acting particularly tough...she wasn't weak, she wasn't masculine, a token placement or "conniving" or a cheerleader. Especially in her role as a businesswoman.

Perhaps people are projecting sexist stereotypes on her since she's such a broadly drawn character.

No one is saying they set out to write a sexist character. Just that the character ended up being a sexist stereotype. And them doing it unconsciously as actually to be expected.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...nder-equality-women-stereotypes-stop-progress

A relatively neglected factor is the role of stereotypes, reinforced by social and cultural norms, which underline certain expectations about gender. Decades of research has shown that stereotypes about men and women have a huge impact on our beliefs about how they should (or should not) behave. Consequently gender stereotypes reinforce social status and gender hierarchies: for example, surveys and experiments show that women are generally perceived as more "communal" and "loyal", whereas men are described more as "protectors" and "competent". Of course not everyone subscribes to these stereotypes, but there is evidence that men and women who behave in ways that contrast with these traditional stereotypes – such as career women or stay-at-home dads – are likely to be evaluated negatively by others. A lifetime of exposure to what women should be, how they should behave and who they should represent drives and reinforces unconscious and unseen biases.

You realize that the bit you highlighted from the article would suggests that the portrayal in the film is actually NOT a harmful gender stereotype, right?

It certainly doesn't support your allegations about this character.
 
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Frankly, focusing on one characters pretty much ignores the main issue with this film, that the entire cast of characters are terrible. They are all badly written and badly developed.
I give credit to the actors, because while I do have problems with the rather stereotypical nature of all the characters, they made them likable for me. I only disliked army man and the JP nerd. I found both rather annoying.
 
Frankly, focusing on one characters pretty much ignores the main issue with this film, that the entire cast of characters are terrible. They are all badly written and badly developed.

Pretty much.

Especially the dinosaurs. They barely had any motivation.

Eat and hunt and (you know).
 
I don't want to be right, the reason I am arguing the point is because I believe I am right. Now if you want to disagree, that is your right. But I try my best not to insult anyone else while doing it. Which is the idea here. When asked to stop by the mods, I do.

And that belief means your going to gravitate toward evidence regarding the character that confirms that belief and dismiss evidence that contradicts it.
 
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