Comics Latest My Cup O' Joe--Quesada drops a Spider-Man related bombshell

[shinlyle]

There's lots more we can do. We can demand that Marvel do better and keep doing so until they change policy.

I'm not talking about telling certain types of stories or giving Peter any particullar type of relationship. I'm saying let characterization and plotting dictate the stories and not "events" which always fizzle at their climax.
I'm saying stopping belching out the 50th Goblin or symboite based character. I'm saying not having Peter so weak that he relies on universal mindwipes or the benevolence of Satan to solve his problems.

And Marvel, considering how retcon/reboot happy they are will likely eventually fold.

The sad thing is, if they did reboot it again to return the marriag eand whatnot, then they would say that they "planned it all along".

Personally, I'm so tired of events, right now. Secret Invasion was supposed to be this massively awesome event, and it all came down to Norman popping a cap in the Skrull Queen. Wow. Now, Norman runs the MU, and the heroes are just allowing it? Come on.

Also, does anyone find it odd that BND Spidey can get taken down by a fun-runner, normal cops, and a she-goblin-lite, but we're supposed to believe that he actually stands a chance against all of Osborn's Dark Avengers and the rest of the government cronies, not to mention a Stark-Tech enhanced Osborn in the upcoming ASM issues? They've spent most of BND making Spidey look inept in a fight, and now he's uber-bad-ass? Okay...

 

[mre]

JMS wrote the story so that the events of ASM #96-98 would have changed so that Gwen would have never died, MJ would have still been with Harry, thus making the marriage a "non" event... JQ nixed that idea because it litterally changed continuity as we know it.

What? JMS meant to change that much? Where is the source for this, I never heard this before.

 

[iloveclones]

^ That was talked about pretty often right after OMD came out. As far as I remember, JMS pretty much plotted out that story and JQ told him mid-stream to change it.

 

[mre]

The sad thing is, if they did reboot it again to return the marriag eand whatnot, then they would say that they "planned it all along".

Personally, I'm so tired of events, right now. Secret Invasion was supposed to be this massively awesome event, and it all came down to Norman popping a cap in the Skrull Queen. Wow. Now, Norman runs the MU, and the heroes are just allowing it? Come on.

Also, does anyone find it odd that BND Spidey can get taken down by a fun-runner, normal cops, and a she-goblin-lite, but we're supposed to believe that he actually stands a chance against all of Osborn's Dark Avengers and the rest of the government cronies, not to mention a Stark-Tech enhanced Osborn in the upcoming ASM issues? They've spent most of BND making Spidey look inept in a fight, and now he's uber-bad-ass? Okay...

I agree. I like the idea of bad guys running the world an all. But this is a bit unbelievable. What I find even more surprising is that now Norman is leading the likes of Doom etc...

Pete is always portrayed as the underdog. I bet you could put him up against a 10 year old girl and Spidey would barely survive. Same goes for Norman and his Dark Avengers.

 

[iloveclones]

I agree. I like the idea of bad guys running the world an all. But this is a bit unbelievable. What I find even more surprising is that now Norman is leading the likes of Doom etc...

Pete is always portrayed as the underdog. I bet you could put him up against a 10 year old girl and Spidey would barely survive. Same goes for Norman and his Dark Avengers.

I don't think Doom, Namor, White Queen think of themselves as taking marching orders from Norman. I think that they think that they're using Norman to their own respective advantage.

 

[Dragon]

The sad thing is, if they did reboot it again to return the marriag eand whatnot, then they would say that they "planned it all along".

Personally, I'm so tired of events, right now. Secret Invasion was supposed to be this massively awesome event, and it all came down to Norman popping a cap in the Skrull Queen. Wow. Now, Norman runs the MU, and the heroes are just allowing it? Come on.

Also, does anyone find it odd that BND Spidey can get taken down by a fun-runner, normal cops, and a she-goblin-lite, but we're supposed to believe that he actually stands a chance against all of Osborn's Dark Avengers and the rest of the government cronies, not to mention a Stark-Tech enhanced Osborn in the upcoming ASM issues? They've spent most of BND making Spidey look inept in a fight, and now he's uber-bad-ass? Okay...

So true. I mean, let's say for example Menace really is stronger than Spidey. Why is Spidey with all his hundreds of battles, years of experience not able to strategize a way to beat this inexperienced, untrained, nutjob? Spidey should struggle with tough opponents. But he shouldn't look like an ineffective piker simply to drag out these storylines.

 

[Dragon]

^ That was talked about pretty often right after OMD came out. As far as I remember, JMS pretty much plotted out that story and JQ told him mid-stream to change it.

And what we have didn't alter continuity as we know it?

But anyway- I'm just not clear how changing the events of ASM #96-98 (The drug issues) would alter anything. Harry and MJ continued dating after that and if anything, Peter and Gwen's relationship was stronger after her trip to London. I mean, I know that JMS said he had a storyline in mind to rectify Sins Past, but Is there some news story discussing this?

 

[iloveclones]

And what we have didn't alter continuity as we know it?

Uh, did I say anything about continuity? I swear I could say, "Man, I really love Styx and chocolate chip cookies!" and you guys would immediately respond with diatribes about life-rape and mystical abortions. Knee-jerk much?Geeeeez.

 

[Dragon]

Uh, did I say anything about continuity? I swear I could say, "Man, I really love Styx and chocolate chip cookies!" and you guys would immediately respond with diatribes about life-rape and mystical abortions. Knee-jerk much?Geeeeez.

Dial it down, man. TMOB mentioned the continuity thing. No one is attacking you. I was only asking if there was a link to JMS/Quesada's comments.

 

[iloveclones]

Then respond to TMOB.

 

[Dragon]

You mentioned the discussion. My comment wasn't an attack on TMOB or you I was responding to a comment from QUESADA. I followed by asking you a question. The two were only connected by subject matter.

 

[DACrowe]

Joey Q:

I’ve mentioned many times in the past that only one major thing changed because of the events in OMD. The wedding

Really? I mean, REALLLLLLLLLY?! That's the only thing?

I suppose

HARRY OSBORN IS ALIVE FOR ****S AND GIGGLES?

Or that MJ, Black Cat, Aunt May AND THE WHOLE WORLD forgot Peter Parker was Spider-Man?

Or that Aunt May was not shot, as Peter wasn't on the run, as he never unmasked himself and that would mean he wasn't Tony Stark's butt boy?

Or that without MJ this somehow changed Peter's ability to use new superpowers like organic webbing and night vision?

What now? Ben Reilly lived? Norman Osborn never died (oh wait...)? Kraven did not die (as MJ was a big part of KLH)? When Venom attacked MJ he raped her, given that Spidey wasn't coming home? MJ didn't save Peter in Florida so he did turn into a giant lizard?

Oh wait, I GOT IT....BABY MAY IS ALIVE AND IT'S FLASH'S BABY.



****tard.

 

[DACrowe]

That's what a HERO does.

Sell his soul to ease his conscious?

I think not.

 

[Blader5489]

Joey Q:



Really? I mean, REALLLLLLLLLY?! That's the only thing?

I suppose

HARRY OSBORN IS ALIVE FOR ****S AND GIGGLES?

Or that MJ, Black Cat, Aunt May AND THE WHOLE WORLD forgot Peter Parker was Spider-Man?

Or that Aunt May was not shot, as Peter wasn't on the run, as he never unmasked himself and that would mean he wasn't Tony Stark's butt boy?

Or that without MJ this somehow changed Peter's ability to use new superpowers like organic webbing and night vision?

What now? Ben Reilly lived? Norman Osborn never died (oh wait...)? Kraven did not die (as MJ was a big part of KLH)? When Venom attacked MJ he raped her, given that Spidey wasn't coming home? MJ didn't save Peter in Florida so he did turn into a giant lizard?

Oh wait, I GOT IT....BABY MAY IS ALIVE AND IT'S FLASH'S BABY.



****tard.

Talk about an overreaction.

What Quesada said--they very sentence you quoted--was that one thing (i.e. the wedding) had been changed as a result of the events of OMD, namely the deal with Mephisto. Harry being alive, the memory wipe, and the loss of the Other powers were the result of events that occurred independently of OMD, narrative-wise.

 

[kguillou]

The thing is it took several interviews from Quesada and various writers to clarify that. It wasnt obvious from the very beginning that Mephisto had nothing to do with Harry, the webshooters, the secret i.d. etc. Literally right after Peter and Mj made the deal with Mephisto, we see aunt may's house rebuilt, peter's id secret, harry back, webshooters....what were we supposed to think? Marvel thinks we're crazy for overreacting but they're the ones who made it look like Mephisto made all those changes in the first place.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency
http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstor...rd_Nominations

Marvel is pleased to announce that Marvel projects, writers and artists received 11 nominations in the 2009 Will Eisner Comic Industry Awards; winners are to be decided this July as part of the 2009 San Diego Comic-Con International. Check out Marvel's nominations below:

Best Continuing Series: THOR, by J. Michael Straczynski, Olivier Coipel, Mark Morales and various
Best Limited Series: OMEGA THE UNKNOWN, by Jonathan Lethem, Karl Rusnak, and Farel Dalrymple
Best Limited Series: THE TWELVE, by J. Michael Straczynski and Chris Weston
Best New Series: INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, by Matt Fraction and Salvador Larocca
Best Archival Collection/Project—Comic Books: ELEKTRA OMNIBUS, by Frank Miller and Bill Sienkiewicz
Best Writer: J. Michael Straczynski, THOR, THE TWELVE
Best Penciller/Inker or Penciller/Inker Team: Olivier Coipel/Mark Morales, THOR
Best Cover Artist: Jo Chen, RUNAWAYS (and others)
Best Coloring: Val Staples, CRIMINAL, INCOGNITO
Best Coloring: Dave Stewart, CAPTAIN AMERICA: WHITE (and others)
Best Lettering: Farel Dalrymple, OMEGA: THE UNKNOWN

Wow, 11 nominations? Nice. JMS's Sins Past, etc, still has an effect on me, but still, JMS is a pretty good writer. He's proven that with stories such as the ones before Sins Past. His run with JRJR. Though, he has made a good amount of mistakes with Spidey. I mean seriously, Gwen and Norman having...kids? Sheesh.

 

[farmernudie]

You cannot change a MAJOR past event without it creating thousands of ripples, altering all sorts of events and things.

Joe just wants it his way....he wanted to make a mess of a story (OMD) and at the same time wipe his hands and say..."it's all neat and tidy"...."this changes nothing"...yet fans are smart enough to SEE the changes and think out all the LOGICAL changes that would no longer make sense if PEte and MJ never married. It is a WHAT-IF type story they created really.

Also, Joe's ignoring that fact that dealing with devil typically always ends up having the hero tortured and everything turned on it's head and spiraling downward.

Here tho, it was a cheap reboot button too, because again there is NO LOGICAL follow-thru..!!!

The world is a happy brainwiped ending, and there are no repercussions!!
None!!

Joe has said, well...HArry is alive now...haha...as IF THAT is a repercussion to dealing with the devil...people come back all the time in comics in general....nothing to due with selling out to the devil.

A logical amazing story idea would be to have Aunt MAy find out Pete was selfish, and that he made a deal with the devil, and have her HATE HIS GUTS...and show the ramifications of that relationship! It's a Never been done story before, logically shows some follow up, and consequences.

But instead, we've got IGNORANT BLISSFUL PETER BUM, living in a happy world created and shaped by satan, no marriage, no baby, no changes, and Pete is a wimp who will no longer have a relationship that goes anywhere. blah.

Joe admittedly created a whole bunch of stories for spidey specifically, out of character (unmasking, etc) because he knew he was dumping WHITE OUT on everything down the road anyway. Cheap.

They were EVENTS, and spidey out of character HELPED the EVENTS....these events did not HELP SPIDEY the character.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Proof positive that pot is bad for the brain.

Don't get your panties in an uproar.

(ten cool points to anyone getting the reference)

 

[carnageehw]

Talk about an overreaction.

What Quesada said--they very sentence you quoted--was that one thing (i.e. the wedding) had been changed as a result of the events of OMD, namely the deal with Mephisto. Harry being alive, the memory wipe, and the loss of the Other powers were the result of events that occurred independently of OMD, narrative-wise.

To-Mae-to, To-mah-to.

You can look at it that way, and from a 100% theoretical standpoint, you may be correct. However, from a practical standpoint, after the BND story, there have been plenty of things that have changed.

 

[stillanerd]

You cannot change a MAJOR past event without it creating thousands of ripples, altering all sorts of events and things.

Joe just wants it his way....he wanted to make a mess of a story (OMD) and at the same time wipe his hands and say..."it's all neat and tidy"...."this changes nothing"...yet fans are smart enough to SEE the changes and think out all the LOGICAL changes that would no longer make sense if PEte and MJ never married. It is a WHAT-IF type story they created really.

Also, Joe's ignoring that fact that dealing with devil typically always ends up having the hero tortured and everything turned on it's head and spiraling downward.

Here tho, it was a cheap reboot button too, because again there is NO LOGICAL follow-thru..!!!

The world is a happy brainwiped ending, and there are no repercussions!!
None!!

Joe has said, well...HArry is alive now...haha...as IF THAT is a repercussion to dealing with the devil...people come back all the time in comics in general....nothing to due with selling out to the devil.

A logical amazing story idea would be to have Aunt MAy find out Pete was selfish, and that he made a deal with the devil, and have her HATE HIS GUTS...and show the ramifications of that relationship! It's a Never been done story before, logically shows some follow up, and consequences.

But instead, we've got IGNORANT BLISSFUL PETER BUM, living in a happy world created and shaped by satan, no marriage, no baby, no changes, and Pete is a wimp who will no longer have a relationship that goes anywhere. blah.

Joe admittedly created a whole bunch of stories for spidey specifically, out of character (unmasking, etc) because he knew he was dumping WHITE OUT on everything down the road anyway. Cheap.

They were EVENTS, and spidey out of character HELPED the EVENTS....these events did not HELP SPIDEY the character.

The thing is, I'm of the opinion that, because of the negative backlash against One More Day, Marvel have essentially been retconing the retcon, trying to come up with ways things could have still happened without Mephisto's deal while pretending that Peter and MJ's marriage never happened. After all, if Peter and MJ were never married, then there would be no reason for Mephisto to offer them any kind of deal to save Aunt May since it was the marriage he wanted.

For instance, Harry Osborn back from the dead? Oh, that wasn't Mephisto, Marvel says. Harry never actually died. The experimental goblin formula put him in a coma and he's been alive all this time. Norman Osborn faked everything else.

And the restoration of Peter's secret identity? That wasn't Mephisto either--even though One More Day clearly said he did this. That was some as of yet unrevealed device that still "up and running" that Peter and someone other person or persons were involved with.

And how much you want to bet that Aunt May wasn't actually healed by Mephisto either? That it was actually Martin Li, a.k.a. Mr. Negative who did it. And how much you also want to bet that this would have happened regardless of whether or not Mephisto interfered? If so, it suggests that Peter and MJ allowed their marriage to be erased and for reality to be altered for nothing--which would actually be perfectly in character for Mephisto to do if you think about it.

But then now, after a year of Quesada tellings us that it was only the marriage that was changed and everything else stayed the same (even though it was laughable on it's face) that something else was altered, thus proving once and for all that what happened in One More Day WAS in fact a mini Crisis-style reboot. Or in this case, Marvel cherry-picking what they wanted to be in continuity. (And as I said earlier, based on Quesada's previous comments about MJ being pregnant with Baby May during the Clone Saga, I'm guessing it's going to be that she never go pregnant the whole time Peter and her were "living together" and, as a result, Ben Reilly never died and the whole Clone Saga, as we know it, happened much differently).

 

[Blader5489]

The thing is, I'm of the opinion that, because of the negative backlash against One More Day, Marvel have essentially been retconing the retcon, trying to come up with ways things could have still happened without Mephisto's deal while pretending that Peter and MJ's marriage never happened. After all, if Peter and MJ were never married, then there would be no reason for Mephisto to offer them any kind of deal to save Aunt May since it was the marriage he wanted.

For instance, Harry Osborn back from the dead? Oh, that wasn't Mephisto, Marvel says. Harry never actually died. The experimental goblin formula put him in a coma and he's been alive all this time. Norman Osborn faked everything else.

And the restoration of Peter's secret identity? That wasn't Mephisto either--even though One More Day clearly said he did this. That was some as of yet unrevealed device that still "up and running" that Peter and someone other person or persons were involved with.

And how much you want to bet that Aunt May wasn't actually healed by Mephisto either? That it was actually Martin Li, a.k.a. Mr. Negative who did it. And how much you also want to bet that this would have happened regardless of whether or not Mephisto interfered? If so, it suggests that Peter and MJ allowed their marriage to be erased and for reality to be altered for nothing--which would actually be perfectly in character for Mephisto to do if you think about it.

But then now, after a year of Quesada tellings us that it was only the marriage that was changed and everything else stayed the same (even though it was laughable on it's face) that something else was altered, thus proving once and for all that what happened in One More Day WAS in fact a mini Crisis-style reboot. Or in this case, Marvel cherry-picking what they wanted to be in continuity. (And as I said earlier, based on Quesada's previous comments about MJ being pregnant with Baby May during the Clone Saga, I'm guessing it's going to be that she never go pregnant the whole time Peter and her were "living together" and, as a result, Ben Reilly never died and the whole Clone Saga, as we know it, happened much differently).

The problem with that theory is that comics are planned out so far in advance, and that's made even more difficult by BND's thrice-weekly scheduling.

Logistically, the writers couldn't be coming up with these stories that contain answers as a response to fan reaction.

Isn't it really so hard to believe that the writers, as they themselves said, we're waiting for a year before really delving into the answers behind OMD?

 

[iloveclones]

Blader, Blader, Blader, don't you understand? It has to be a conspiracy. It has to. IT HAS TO!!!!!

 

[farmernudie]

It's more in the middle......just like OMD was all planned out, it ended up being delayed as Joe made changes to the original.

Sure some of BND was planned out....but people alter things as they go too....artists writers, they do it all the time. Not a controversy.

Plus, originally, they said they were not going to explain things at all but then after lots of fan backlash, they said they would explain SOME things. (i think at this point it should NOT be tried to explain at all, any further...hard to make a brick look good...)

I think they're trying to walk a fine line of explaining their mess/not explaining it/moving forward.

Plus, i think they realize the devil deal WAS corny and out of character and makes Pete look like a complete putzy loser....so now they're bringing in the mystery guest...rebooting their reboot, so that it wasn't just the devil that altered the world...but now the easter bunny does the wiping and not the devil...or whatever.

It is funny tho they keep saying nothing changed BUT one thing..the wedding, but NOW the official word is TWO things changed. See, it changes! >Poof<

They're trying to soften the horrid foundation, sorta, i'd say.

 

[stillanerd]

The problem with that theory is that comics are planned out so far in advance, and that's made even more difficult by BND's thrice-weekly scheduling.

Logistically, the writers couldn't be coming up with these stories that contain answers as a response to fan reaction.

Isn't it really so hard to believe that the writers, as they themselves said, we're waiting for a year before really delving into the answers behind OMD?

Oh, I'm not discounting that, for the most part, there was some planning before hand, what with their writers summits and everything. But, as Farmer pointed out, plans can change. After all, it's one thing to outline a story but it's another thing to actually write it. After all, according to Steve Wacker, they knew why Harry was back but didn't yet have a working story as to how to fit this in until later. And it's pretty apparent that, while they knew One More Day was going to be controversial, Marvel grossly underestimated the intensity and length of the backlash from fans.

Also, if it took multiple writers a full year and 40 plus issues just to set things up, then something is really, really wrong, regardless of whether the stories were planned out ahead of time or not.

 

[kguillou]

I still dont understand why they had to choose Mephisto of all people, of all the super-powered beings in the marvel universe they had to choose the worst one for Peter to make a deal with. Hell, i would've been satisfied if he made a deal with Doom. Now THAT would have been interesting, but the freaking devil? the symbol of evil? Come on, this was the best they could come up with??