Comics Latest My Cup O' Joe--Quesada drops a Spider-Man related bombshell

[Meehaul]

Again, if you're Stan & Steve, you have to feel pretty happy that you created a character than can generate this much passion after all these years. I think we all have our own interpretations of the character that influences the way we think he ought to behave. I was angry about the marriage for ages and even quit buying ASM for awhile. It took time for me to get back into the character. But, it's interesting to see people's ideas/interpretations/thoughts with respect to the character. Moral Def certainly hasn't convinced me that his interpretation of the "event" is correct, and I'm sure I won't convince him either. But it's all sort of an interesting debate.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Again, if you're Stan & Steve, you have to feel pretty happy that you created a character than can generate this much passion after all these years. I think we all have our own interpretations of the character that influences the way we think he ought to behave. I was angry about the marriage for ages and even quit buying ASM for awhile. It took time for me to get back into the character. But, it's interesting to see people's ideas/interpretations/thoughts with respect to the character. Moral Def certainly hasn't convinced me that his interpretation of the "event" is correct, and I'm sure I won't convince him either. But it's all sort of an interesting debate.

That must be because you didn't read any of the BiB or OMD stuff that or your logic filter is set to "Quesada".

 

[Meehaul]

I've read it all, goiing back to AF 15. I just don't agree with you, or your take on the situation, except that I think making it appear to be a "deal with the devil" was a horrible idea--as bad as the idea of Pete marrying MJ to begin with--arguably even worse given that other alternatives existed and that magic has never been a large part of Pete's world.

 

[Meehaul]

I've read it all, goiing back to AF 15. I just don't agree with you, or your take on the situation, except that I think making it appear to be a "deal with the devil" was a horrible idea--as bad as the idea of Pete marrying MJ to begin with--arguably even worse given that other alternatives existed and that magic has never been a large part of Pete's world.

 

[moraldeficiency]

You read Spider-Man's origin where he becomes about responsibility and doing the hard thing cause it's right?

You read about how Peter Parker is supposed to be a ****ing genius just under reed richards?

You read all the encounters Spider-Man's had with people that have made deals with the devil which never work out in the slightest?

You read the part where aunt may tells pete it's her time, she's ready to die and she loves him?

You also read the part where god tells pete it's ok?

Then you read the part where doctor strange tells pete it's her time and the sorcerer supreme of the universe cannot prevent someone who's supposed to die?

Then you read the part where mephisto explains how their love is more precious to him than pete's life or soul (which should tell even a ******ed person with a severe head injury that maybe there's something not kosher here) and this would give him a very special win over god, that same god that may believes in and would never want any part in ****ing over?

Then you read the part where pete has a whole ****ing day to think about this but just can't get around to doing that?

Finally you saw pete agree to the deal with the devil?

And later you perhaps saw the interview with Joey Q where he explains MJ was never pregnant; thereby upping the death ante to two mystical abortions for one old lady's life?

And you think this was remotely, somewhat in a way in character? Wait, not only that but a selfless act even though pete's life is far easier now thanks to the devil's help?



Pete took the easy choice to eliminate his personal guilt and did so at the expense of everyone he claimed to love.

 

[Blader5489]

I do before you editted it, I believe that was right after you said you weren't jumping into that mess. You know I'm the pothead here, why is my memory of the last few hours so much better than yours?

That wasn't really the lovey-dovey **** you were implying though, it was more about my own beef with the institution of marriage itself. Certainly the opposite of chick stuff.

 

[farmernudie]

This whole rebooted Spidey universe is set on the foundation of Peter and the devil making deals to re-write history.

Peter is suppose to be a responsible guy, yet he is now a selfish bozo. no way around THAT...who refuses his aunts wishes, threw his WIFE under the satan bus, threw his kid under the satan bus...and let the devil mindwipe the ENTIRE PLANET....so even his friends no longer remember him/who he is....he let satan swiss cheese EVERYONE"S MINDS. Nothing is sacred to this new bold bozo Pete. I grew up LOVING (to put it lightly) and seeing myself thru and in Pete....now i cannot relate to giving my wife to the devil, nor my elderly dying aunt.

What would Aunt MAy say if she found out Pete dealt with Satan to stretch out her life against her will like Gollum??

Would Uncle Ben in heaven be proud of Ol' Pete the Devil dealer????

 

[Themanofbat]

Peter is suppose to be a responsible guy, yet he is now a selfish bozo. no way around THAT...who refuses his aunts wishes...

He couldn't live with himself, and he made the selfish choice... not the first time Peter has made a selfish choice...

.. threw his WIFE under the satan bus...

She would have chosen to go under said bus... in fact, the whole thing happened because she wanted it that way... so that Peter could not bear the guilt of effectively killing his aunt.

... threw his kid under the satan bus...

Peter did not know anything about his kid(s) until AFTER the deal was struck... for all intents and purposes, baby May was already dead in Peter & Mj's minds.

...and let the devil mindwipe the ENTIRE PLANET....so even his friends no longer remember him/who he is....he let satan swiss cheese EVERYONE"S MINDS...

Mephisto had nothing to do with the mindwipe... Peter and an unknown ally did it. Get your facts straight please.

Nothing is sacred to this new bold bozo Pete. I grew up LOVING (to put it lightly) and seeing myself thru and in Pete....now i cannot relate to giving my wife to the devil, nor my elderly dying aunt.

What if you loved your aunt so much that your wife would sacrifice herself to the devil? Would you think of her as a selfish bozo? I doubt it. Though I bet your wife would do anything for you... including deals with the devil.

The funnier part is that you now cannot relate to a very sad and beaten down Peter who reluctantly agrees to a deal with Mephisto (thanks largely in part to the prodding from his wife), but you could relate to all the wacky stuff and the unrealistic world that has been presented in the Spider-Man comics for almost 50 years...

Puh-lease... you're just looking for excuses...

You don't have to like the new direction nor should you buy the books, but with every prosaic post about "satanic Peter" read by people like myself and others who currently enjoy the book, you're just insulting us with some holier-than-thou attitude that's supposed to make us somehow "less intelligent" or "dumbed-down" for liking the new direction when the reality is that your taste buds are no better than mine, and the same goes for me.

We've all heard it before... come up with something different to the table for a change.

Or at least change the record.

Cheers...

Mike

 

[farmernudie]

Haven't posted much on here recently...just because no matter how hard i try...and i HAVE been trying..i cannot get into this reboot.

Everyone who likes the reboot says the same things too tho....that the devil didn't do it all, because marvel is gonna reboot the reboot....nothing changed, everything changed, blah blah.

So, yeh, it stinks that i cannot collect my favorite character that i've bought since the beginning....but no matter how you phrase, or like it, or hate it, the whole foundation for the reboot was outta character whether Pete did it or MJ or their pet cockroach.

Aunt May would NOT be proud they dealt with the devil....however neither one of them would do that if written well. That is all i meant about standing up for marriage here too....just that it would be nice to see them write a real loving relationship....and not take some cheap reboot button, where evil wins, when that goes against the principles of Peter and all here.

And since you asked....no, i do not think my loving wife would make a deal with the devil to make my elderly aunt live longer. Sounds quite dumb really. Oh well.

Again, i've not posted much, but do read the forums, because sadly spidey is pretty dead...and i have not much to say that hasn't been said...

I tried to re-read NWTD but....arghy...spidey feels like...i dunno....spidey comics just really stink now...even without being tied to the newly created devil world...they personally don't feel right currently in this new direction....to me...that's all...

 

[Meehaul]

A brief response:

You read Spider-Man's origin where he becomes about responsibility and doing the hard thing cause it's right? Yes

You read about how Peter Parker is supposed to be a ****ing genius just under reed richards? Yes, not sure I see the relevance.

You read all the encounters Spider-Man's had with people that have made deals with the devil which never work out in the slightest? There aren't many. Not sure quite what you're referring to, but I'll assume this for the sake of argument.

You read the part where aunt may tells pete it's her time, she's ready to die and she loves him? Yup, again, isn't particularly relevant.

You also read the part where god tells pete it's ok?

Then you read the part where doctor strange tells pete it's her time and the sorcerer supreme of the universe cannot prevent someone who's supposed to die? Yup.

Then you read the part where mephisto explains how their love is more precious to him than pete's life or soul (which should tell even a ******ed person with a severe head injury that maybe there's something not kosher here) and this would give him a very special win over god, that same god that may believes in and would never want any part in ****ing over? Um, I didn't read this the same way you did, apparently.

Then you read the part where pete has a whole ****ing day to think about this but just can't get around to doing that?

Finally you saw pete agree to the deal with the devil? Not exactly, no.

And later you perhaps saw the interview with Joey Q where he explains MJ was never pregnant; thereby upping the death ante to two mystical abortions for one old lady's life?
Again, so?

And you think this was remotely, somewhat in a way in character? Wait, not only that but a selfless act even though pete's life is far easier now thanks to the devil's help?
No. I think he made a decision, based upon his belief that he was responsible for his Aunt's death, and he wished to save her.

Look, this is the fallacy of false analogy. I could say: Pete tried to save Gwen, but failed. He tried to save Captain Stacy, but failed. He tried to save Harry, but failed. He's a smart guy. He ought to have learned. He should give up trying to save people. Period. In reality, he made the choice he believe he HAD to make in order to save someone whose life was endangered because HE is Spider-Man. The EASY thing would have been to throw up his hands and say: "God, Reed Richards, & Dr. Strange all told me to forget about it. Aunt May said 'don't worry, I'm ready to die.' So, why don't I let the old broad join Uncle Ben and go back to my hot, rich, amazing model wife?"

The TOUGH choice was to say: "It's my fault Aunt May is dying. I let Uncle Ben down, I have to do the courageous thing and sacrifice that which is most important to me, and save my Aunt. If she were falling from, say, the Brooklyn Bridge, I wouldnt say "well, I killed Gwen instead of saving her, so no, I'll let her fall." No, instead I say I will sacrifice what is most important to me and take the one, small, slim chance that I have of saving her. THAT is a sacrifice, THAT decision is heroic. Maybe it doesn't turn out well, maybe it doesn't work, but I have to try. That's what a HERO does.

The marriage itself was against Pete's character because much of the tension of the original stories lay in the fact that Pete knew he COULDN"T both be Spider-Man AND have a "normal" life. He kept his identity a secret, even from other heroes, because he was afraid for the safety of his family and friends. Several times, he rejected love because he KNEW that if he married or got too close to people, he would jeopardize them. Gwen went to Europe because Pete wouldn't ask her to stay in NYC. Pete wouldn't ask her to stay because he loved her, and knew that loving him could endanger Gwen's life. So he made the heroic choice and let her go.

That's why he tried to QUIT being Spider-Man. He wanted to quit, even to the point of growing those extra arms, in order to live a normal life, marry, have a family, etc. But instead, he turned his back on his responsibility, what he knew to be correct, and married. Not just anyone, but a hot super-model where there was no real foundation laid for them even TO marry. It was just a publicity stunt driven by the news strip that flew in the face of "with great power comes great responsibility"--namely, that if you choose the path of the hero, you choose a lonely path. So, Pete made the wrong choice to mary in the first place. And, contrary to your belief, in my view he made the difficult choice, the courageous choice, in sacrificing the one thing supposedly most important to him to save a life. A life he had endangered as Spider-Man.

I used to hate the whole "Mephisto" thing, and just liked the results, but now I'm actually coming around to it. It demonstrates to me that Pete is a true hero. He will sacrifice EVERYTHING for others--maybe even his soul.

 

[Meehaul]

But again, I don't think I'm convincing anyone here, I am just trying to get people who don't like BND to see a different perspective.

 

[ScottishFogg]

Personally, I have nothing against BND other than the route taken to get here. It's nice to have some lighter stories told. But I don't think a marriage reboot was necessary and I *really* can't get behind the deal with the devil.

I just wish Joey Q and company had decided to embrace the continuity instead of rewriting it. I wish he had just gone to the braintreust and said, "no more drama for a while, people!"

 

[kguillou]

I will concede to one thing, even though i think OMD was a travesty of a story, i dont think it would have been right to just let Aunt May die like that. It just wouldn't have felt right and it would always stick with Peter that both Aunt May and Uncle Ben died because of him. Even though Peter's dealt with plenty of tragedies before, i think this would've been the straw that broke the camel's back. This death would have been directly Peter's fault, even more so than Uncle Ben's death. I dont think Pete would have ever forgiven himself for that.

For the record i do think aunt may needs to die, soon, but i dont think that her dying by a sniper's bullet is a memorable death for such an iconic character. Poor J.M Dematteis, he must be saying to himself "DOES NOTHING I WROTE HAVE RELEVANCE??!" lol

 

[Dragon]

A brief response:
You read about how Peter Parker is supposed to be a ****ing genius just under reed richards? Yes, not sure I see the relevance.

I didn't know Pete was considered that smart- But the relevance would be that Peter, not being an idiot should be able to make good decisions, weighing the pluses and minuses and seeing the possible problems down the road.

You read all the encounters Spider-Man's had with people that have made deals with the devil which never work out in the slightest? There aren't many. Not sure quite what you're referring to, but I'll assume this for the sake of argument.

I can't speak for MD but maybe he isn't referring necessarily to literal deals with the devil (even though Mephisto isn't supposed to be THE Devil [Lucifer]anyway, but..) but simply those (Eddie Brock for example) who made Faustean deals with malevolent entities and whose lives ended up in ruin.

You read the part where aunt may tells pete it's her time, she's ready to die and she loves him? Yup, again, isn't particularly relevant.

NOT RELEVANT? The wishes of the person at the center of the deal not relevant??? So Peter's desires regarding May's life are more important than May's own? Really?

And you think this was remotely, somewhat in a way in character? Wait, not only that but a selfless act even though pete's life is far easier now thanks to the devil's help?
No. I think he made a decision, based upon his belief that he was responsible for his Aunt's death, and he wished to save her.

But he didn't make THE RIGHT DECISION. And his decision wasn't based on doing what was right. It was based on his not being able to deal with the consequences of his own screw-up. He sought absolution for his failure. And when those on the side of the angels refused him- he sought to achieve his own selfish ends by going to the wrong side of the tracks. What makes Peter any different from any of the criminals that he's fought to bring down all of these years?

Look, this is the fallacy of false analogy. I could say: Pete tried to save Gwen, but failed. He tried to save Captain Stacy, but failed. He tried to save Harry, but failed. He's a smart guy. He ought to have learned. He should give up trying to save people. Period.

But that's a false analogy. Peter has suceeded in saving lives hundreds of times more than he's failed. And considering that the circumstances of each death you above mention are totally different they don't even work being lumped together.

In reality, he made the choice he believe he HAD to make in order to save someone whose life was endangered because HE is Spider-Man.

She wasn't endangered because he's Spider-Man. She was endangered because he foolishly revealed his secret identity. There's a difference. And considering that he already knew that people around him are endangered when criminals know his secret, we go back to why someone with his intelligence would make such a mistake.

The EASY thing would have been to throw up his hands and say: "God, Reed Richards, & Dr. Strange all told me to forget about it. Aunt May said 'don't worry, I'm ready to die.' So, why don't I let the old broad join Uncle Ben and go back to my hot, rich, amazing model wife?"

Yeah, why didn't he? Peter was being clued in by some knowledgable folks that May's continued existence wasn't in the cards. But that wasn't good enough. So cowardly is Peter being portrayed that he's willing to do wrong simply to avoid facing up to his own failings. Ben died because he failed. Gwen died because he failed. May was dying because he failed. He should accept it and do what's necessary to move on. And maybe not make future stupid choices. But no, he makes another stupid decision by getting in bed with Mephisto. And hey- maybe May would have been happier being reunited with Ben. Did Peter really reason that she'll never be endangered again because of her proximity to Spider-Man?

The TOUGH choice was to say: "It's my fault Aunt May is dying. I let Uncle Ben down, I have to do the courageous thing and sacrifice that which is most important to me, and save my Aunt.

No, that's the easy choice. He gets May back and gets to live as a swinging bachelor again. He doesn't have to deal with the responsibility of making his marriage work.

If she were falling from, say, the Brooklyn Bridge, I wouldnt say "well, I killed Gwen instead of saving her, so no, I'll let her fall." No, instead I say I will sacrifice what is most important to me and take the one, small, slim chance that I have of saving her. THAT is a sacrifice, THAT decision is heroic. Maybe it doesn't turn out well, maybe it doesn't work, but I have to try. That's what a HERO does.

Doing all in his power to save her is heroic. Risking his life to save her is heroic. Ponying up to all that is evil just so he can sleep at night is an escape.

The marriage itself was against Pete's character because much of the tension of the original stories lay in the fact that Pete knew he COULDN"T both be Spider-Man AND have a "normal" life.

That's not true. Peter always hoped to marry someone and have a family life. He considered proposing to Betty. Only her fear of Spider-Man stopped him.

He intended to marry Gwen. Only her death prevented that. Hell, he even imagined being married to Black Cat. Peter is defineitly the marrying kind.

Several times, he rejected love because he KNEW that if he married or got too close to people, he would jeopardize them.

When did he do that? Even after Gwen's death, he still continued dating. Even after MJ's near death a short time later, he continnued dating.

Gwen went to Europe because Pete wouldn't ask her to stay in NYC. Pete wouldn't ask her to stay because he loved her, and knew that loving him could endanger Gwen's life. So he made the heroic choice and let her go.

That's not why he let Gwen go. He let her go because he was afraid of her learning his secret identity if they married, knowing how she blamed Spidey for her father's death.

That's why he tried to QUIT being Spider-Man. He wanted to quit, even to the point of growing those extra arms, in order to live a normal life, marry, have a family, etc. But instead, he turned his back on his responsibility, what he knew to be correct, and married. Not just anyone, but a hot super-model where there was no real foundation laid for them even TO marry. It was just a publicity stunt driven by the news strip that flew in the face of "with great power comes great responsibility"--namely, that if you choose the path of the hero, you choose a lonely path. So, Pete made the wrong choice to mary in the first place. And, contrary to your belief, in my view he made the difficult choice, the courageous choice, in sacrificing the one thing supposedly most important to him to save a life. A life he had endangered as Spider-Man.

Now, while I'm with you in not being a fan of the marriage, you certainly can't be suggesting that by "sacrificing" his marriage he's in anyway giving up having a social life. Immediately at the start of BND Peter was back on the prowl. Peter has not nor will he ever stop pursuing relationships. And we know from Joe Q's own lips that the reason for OMD was to make Peter a free-agent dating-wise, not a lonely responsibility driven hermit. Any Spidey fan knows that Peter's personal life is as important to the comics' success as his fights with supervillains.

I used to hate the whole "Mephisto" thing, and just liked the results, but now I'm actually coming around to it. It demonstrates to me that Pete is a true hero. He will sacrifice EVERYTHING for others--maybe even his soul.

Well, he's sacrificed his sould alright, but not for others. Now, since the writing at Marvel is pretty much crap, there actually may be no comeuppance for Peter making a deal with the devil. That's probably how Joe Q got his job, so I guess he can't throw stones.

 

[shinlyle]

You read the part where aunt may tells pete it's her time, she's ready to die and she loves him? Yup, again, isn't particularly relevant.

I've REALLY tried to be neutral here, but COME ON!! It isn't relevant? This was like seeing someone you love about to win the lottery and make all of their dreams come true and setting fire to the ticket and burning it up while kicking them in the stomach and saying, "Sorry, I just couldn't handle you having you be happy...I'd miss you while you were out living it up."

He pretty much snatched May from the Pearly Gates so that he could have her around in a world of suffering for another 10 years.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I can't believe people are still whining about the stale "he made a deal with the devil!" thing almost a year and a half after the fact. I was pissed too. But the stories since have more than made up for it and I've moved past my initial feelings. Accept it already, and lighten up... you might actually find the stories enjoyable ( a crazy concept I know!).

Or.... you could just continue screaming into the wind about the sanctity of comic-book marriages. Maybe that's more fun for you. To each their own I guess. But to me it just looks like the same damn argument I've seen regurgitated over and over again for the past 17 months. At the very least come up with new points.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I can't believe people are still whining about the stale "he made a deal with the devil!" thing almost a year and a half after the fact. I was pissed too. But the stories since have more than made up for it and I've moved past my initial feelings. Accept it already, and lighten up... you might actually find the stories enjoyable ( a crazy concept I know!).

Or.... you could just continue screaming into the wind about the sanctity of comic-book marriages. Maybe that's more fun for you. To each their own I guess. But to me it just looks like the same damn argument I've seen regurgitated over and over again for the past 17 months. At the very least come up with new points.

Which stories, the ones where pete isn't quite up to catching muggers or drug addicts in broad daylight? Getting his ass handed to him by funrunners? Giving up and laying down to die while fighting Goblin version 3.78? Or the ones where he can't figure out his webshooters?

Sorry I've read most of the stories and with a few notable exceptions this hasn't been that great, what's more it's impossible to forget the devil deal as damn near ever issue makes references to the problems that caused trying to cloak it in "mystery".

No one's giving up on "whining" because some of use were part of that very successful, "**** the clone saga and give me back spider-man" movement which actually worked. So no, no moving on, no compromise on the idea that pete would willingly make a deal with the devil. Expect more from your heroes and stories and you might get it (eventually).





Meehaul- your response to every point is "yeah so"? You must have been amazing in debate. I've going horseback riding, could I borrow those massive blinders this weekend?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Which stories, the ones where pete isn't quite up to catching muggers or drug addicts in broad daylight? Getting his ass handed to him by funrunners? Giving up and laying down to die while fighting Goblin version 3.78? Or the ones where he can't figure out his webshooters?

You're really cherry-picking, and most of what you cite are weak moments in larger stories, not actual events or stories. IMO, there's nothing in JMS's last three or so years on the job that rivals the quality found within "Sometimes it Snows in April", "New Ways to Die", the Flash Thompson one-shot, the Shocker two-parter and "Character Assassination." Look, we've gone from complaining about Norman raping Gwen, organic web-shooters and Peter being borne from a mystical animal totem, to minor quibbles about him running out of web-fluid and whether he put up enough of a fight. The proof is in the pudding.

Sorry I've read most of the stories and with a few notable exceptions this hasn't been that great, what's more it's impossible to forget the devil deal as damn near ever issue makes references to the problems that caused trying to cloak it in "mystery".

No one's giving up on "whining" because some of use were part of that very successful, "**** the clone saga and give me back spider-man" movement which actually worked. So no, no moving on, no compromise on the idea that pete would willingly make a deal with the devil. Expect more from your heroes and stories and you might get it (eventually).

Well, give yourself a big pat on the back if you were part of the "***** the clone saga and give me back Spider-Man" movement, because I've got news for you, bub... if the clone saga had succeeded and Ben Reilly was Spider-Man right now, there would have been no One More Day and no deal with the Devil. Oh well. Guess that one kinda backfired for you, huh?

Anyway, if you're hoping lightning will strike twice, I've got news for you. Joe Q and company are absolutely, positively, no way, no how going to put the genie back in the bottle with this one. Unlike the clone saga, they didn't leave a back door open this time. They've already gone through too much to backtrack now, with the secret ID being erased, Peter being single and Harry being alive right now. I don't think they would undo all of that just to satisfy some angry grumblings on a message board. And since you're reading the books and giving your opinions on their quality, I assume that's all you're producing... angry grumblings, but no boycott. Yes, that will show them.

 

[moraldeficiency]

You're really cherry-picking, and most of what you cite are weak moments in larger stories, not actual events or stories. IMO, there's nothing in JMS's last three or so years on the job that rivals the quality found within "Sometimes it Snows in April", "New Ways to Die", the Flash Thompson one-shot, the Shocker two-parter and "Character Assassination." Look, we've gone from complaining about Norman raping Gwen, organic web-shooters and Peter being borne from a mystical animal totem, to minor quibbles about him running out of web-fluid and whether he put up enough of a fight. The proof is in the pudding.

Of course I'm cherry picking but those are the moments that stand out in my head unfortunately. I have seen some good stories in BND and I admit when they come up, but the best ones have little to do with peter parker and that's just sad.

UH, the 911 issue, the birthday issue, the NA arc I would say were all world's better than anything in BND so far (I can think of plenty more, but these stand out as clearly superior).

Character Assassination barely had Spider-Man do anything other than get kicked around and beat up. Then at the end the guy that never gives up no matter what the odds, decides to give up and just die after doing absolutely nothing of consequence. The ending could have been good but seeing that poor display (not to mention the death of one of the more interesting BND characters, and pete getting shot by the cops, *****ed out by a crocked cop for breaking the law, etc) I can't say it was even above any gale issue I've read. It's been gugg's weakest stuff to date (with the possible exception of that jackpot nonsense).

My main issue with the current trend is the whole devil hangs over every issue thing, but that's just me. The minor points you refer to are all about why pete's devolved into clown shoes. The major issues you mention are about story and not character (the exception being the goblin babies [hey more of those on the way, awesome] and that had Quesada stink on it). So with one you didn't like the story but the character was correct, with the other you liked the story but it was "alternate stupid and weak peter parker". I'll take the former.

Well, give yourself a big pat on the back if you were part of the "***** the clone saga and give me back Spider-Man" movement, because I've got news for you, bub... if the clone saga had succeeded and Ben Reilly was Spider-Man right now, there would have been no One More Day and no deal with the Devil. Oh well. Guess that one kinda backfired for you, huh?

Thanks, but I prefer to take a shot.

You're assuming alot of speculation aren't you? If this happened then this probably wouldn't? What if ben got married? Then we'd have OMD clone saga, and that's full of awesome. Here's what I'm going for, no peter parker is a clone and no peter parker makes deals with satan. Sorry but I'm a purist in that way.

Anyway, if you're hoping lightning will strike twice, I've got news for you. Joe Q and company are absolutely, positively, no way, no how going to put the genie back in the bottle with this one. Unlike the clone saga, they didn't leave a back door open this time. They've already gone through too much to backtrack now, with the secret ID being erased, Peter being single and Harry being alive right now. I don't think they would undo all of that just to satisfy some angry grumblings on a message board. And since you're reading the books and giving your opinions on their quality, I assume that's all you're producing... angry grumblings, but no boycott. Yes, that will show them.

That's what they said about the clone saga. There's always a back door when the devil rewrites reality, this is easier to get out of than the clone saga from a writing prospective since magic can undo magic. I could say they've already gone through too much with a married peter parker to expect nothing would change by undoing that, but marvel thought otherwise so I don't see your point.

No, reading at the store. The only thing I've bought with peter parker in it has been avengers/invaders (too much of a junkie for the concept to not pick this up) and that issue of iron man. I've actually convinced some others to join in at the store (not that it's been hard, anyone that got suckered with SI: Spider-Man was pretty easy to win over).

 

[shinlyle]

My only point in all of this (Man, I'm as tired of this topic as anyone else is), is that we still haven't gotten much of anything that couldn't have happened with a married Spider-Man. The changes were supposedly "neccesary", yet there have been maybe two or three instances where Peter and MJ being married would NOT have worked.

Also, it's one thing to do away with the marriage, but they have now completely gotten rid of MJ. She's been mentioned in passing, and she's even shown up, what, twice? Talk about lame. I know they're trying to build up their supporting cast (most of which are bad guys in disguise or cast members that could have been used BEFORE BND), but completely writing out such an important character is just wasteful.

Also, as for the boycott thing, you know there are ways to read a book without buying it right? Downloading it, just reading it at the store, etc. I have bought exactly ONE issue of BND since it started. #583, the JOHN ROMITA cover, not the Barack Overrated cover. I actually got it this past weekend. I told my LCS owner that I couldn't get a copy because of the Obama-collectors grabbing them all, and he told me I could have his copy for cover price...and it had the AWESOME Romita Cover. I read the issue, too. Not bad. Not great, but not bad....except for the Obama story, which was as throw-away as a story can be.

My problem with BND is that, the few stories I've read from it have been mediocre at best. Him letting the mugger get away in part one of BND was just insane, though. Clearly, he hasn't learned anything (see AF#15). Still, there have been some highlights (NWTD and CA), but the rest have been pretty bland.

Personally, I think JMS's run had some highlights that were just outshined by his low points. The New Avengers arc convinced me (albeit temporarily) that Spidey could really be a useful Avenger, but the next arc, The Other, well, it was a total betrayal. Sins Past sucked, but the Civil War ASM stories, as well as Back in Black (despite the huge continuity errors in the first part) was awesome as well. I honestly think, with editorial mandates and a little more common sense, JMS could have had a legendary run on Spidey...as opposed to an infamous one.

And, lastly, my MAIN problem with BND is still the 3 times a month thing. If it were once a month, I probably would add it and say, "What the hell, A mediocre Spidey book is better than none at all." However, when that book has 3 issues a month plus tie-ins, minis, and extras, no thank you. Oh, and before anyone asks, I rarely bought all three Spidey monthlies, and I'm sure I haven't bought all three(or four) every month since the early nineties. It would just be nice to have a book a month. Give me Dan Slott and JRJR every month, and Peter can go on tour with the devil. I'll buy it and turn my brain off.

Okay, I'll bet I had a point in there somewhere....so think about it.

 

[moraldeficiency]

That wasn't really the lovey-dovey **** you were implying though, it was more about my own beef with the institution of marriage itself. Certainly the opposite of chick stuff.

You used the term "lovey-dovey" in a sentence. Do your high heels match your dress?






Shin makes some good points. People forget how crappy ASM was before JMS came in.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Of course I'm cherry picking but those are the moments that stand out in my head unfortunately. I have seen some good stories in BND and I admit when they come up, but the best ones have little to do with peter parker and that's just sad.

UH, the 911 issue, the birthday issue, the NA arc I would say were all world's better than anything in BND so far (I can think of plenty more, but these stand out as clearly superior).

The writing in the 9/11 issue was dreck. It's only remembered fondly because of the beautiful JRJr artwork and the fact it was done in tribute only a month after the tragedy. Good intentions, bad comic.

What birthday issue? That's how memorable that was... Wait, are you talking about ASM#500? As far as anniversary issues go, it paled in comparison to ASM#400, ASM#300, ASM#200 and ASM#100. What monumental thing happened? There was a bunch of magic globbedy-glook happening in Times Square. Peter fought some demons and monsters (um okay... that's grounded) and then I forget, but for some reason he was seeing himself in the future wearing a really tacky, lame red leather jacket and going out like a pansy due to death-by-cop. Real heroic. Then he talked to his Uncle Ben for five minutes. Seen that before. Yawn.

As for Avengers... I've always hated the fact that Peter, the quintessential loner, joined a team. It sorta felt like copy-catting Batman joining the JLA. Spider-Man just does not belong on the Avengers in any capacity. And didn't that arc start in the ashes of Peter's former Forest Hills home? That's really purist. So you're all for a magic-infused, team-playing Spidey? Like I said... a true purist! t:

If those were the best JMS stories you could cite... wow. Well, thank goodness, he's gone.

Character Assassination barely had Spider-Man do anything other than get kicked around and beat up.

Because that's never happened..... Oh, hello, Morlun.

Then at the end the guy that never gives up no matter what the odds, decides to give up and just die after doing absolutely nothing of consequence. The ending could have been good but seeing that poor display (not to mention the death of one of the more interesting BND characters, and pete getting shot by the cops, *****ed out by a crocked cop for breaking the law, etc) I can't say it was even above any gale issue I've read. It's been gugg's weakest stuff to date (with the possible exception of that jackpot nonsense).

The fact his weakest stuff to date was miles better than JMS's best stuff during his last year says a lot.

My main issue with the current trend is the whole devil hangs over every issue thing, but that's just me. The minor points you refer to are all about why pete's devolved into clown shoes. The major issues you mention are about story and not character (the exception being the goblin babies [hey more of those on the way, awesome] and that had Quesada stink on it). So with one you didn't like the story but the character was correct, with the other you liked the story but it was "alternate stupid and weak peter parker". I'll take the former.

Thanks, but I prefer to take a shot.

You're assuming alot of speculation aren't you? If this happened then this probably wouldn't? What if ben got married? Then we'd have OMD clone saga, and that's full of awesome. Here's what I'm going for, no peter parker is a clone and no peter parker makes deals with satan. Sorry but I'm a purist in that way.

Why would Ben get married when the whole point was replacing Peter with a "single Spider-Man"? The suits would not sign off on that, knowing the trouble it took to get there.

That's what they said about the clone saga. There's always a back door when the devil rewrites reality, this is easier to get out of than the clone saga from a writing prospective since magic can undo magic. I could say they've already gone through too much with a married peter parker to expect nothing would change by undoing that, but marvel thought otherwise so I don't see your point.

Zzzzzzzz.... more of the same. You're looking at things from a continuity perspective... "OMG!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE PETER MADE THAT DEAL WITH THE DEVIL AND DUMPED MJ... THAT ONE TIME TWO YEARS AGO!!!!" Marvel is looking at it from a present-day perspective.... "We now have a single Peter and that makes him available to tell more stories." The Reilly situation and the married Peter situation were also present-day conundrums. Anything that happened in OMD on the other hand is firmly in the past and staying there.

No, reading at the store. The only thing I've bought with peter parker in it has been avengers/invaders (too much of a junkie for the concept to not pick this up) and that issue of iron man. I've actually convinced some others to join in at the store (not that it's been hard, anyone that got suckered with SI: Spider-Man was pretty easy to win over).

You know, writers, artists and editors work hard to produce that product, so paying customers can enjoy their stories and that money can then go to support their families. They don't do it, so fanboys who skim it in stores and don't pay for it can deride it later on internet forums. Reading an issue in the store and deciding whether it's something you want to buy or not, is okay, but it seems like you never have any intention of buying BND and are just reading it for free so you can come up with some talking-points later. But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Meehaul]

Well, Moral Deficiency, perhaps if you read the post, you'd undestand it. And you don't need my blinders, as yours seem to work perfectly well. Look, it's clear people have strong opinions on this. The dude who responded to my post didn't get my point (btw, of course they were both false analogies, thats what I was trying, poorly, to show). The bottom line with all of this is if you felt like Pete made the WRONG decision, you don't like what happened and will marshall arguments on its behalf. But, similarly, you can view Pete's decision as an heroic sacrifice as well. I don't think you can dismiss that argument any more than you can dismiss the arguments folks make saying Pete's choice condemned him to eternal damnation and forever destroyed the character. Multiple views exist on this subject. Reasonable people can disagree about it. I happen to think the marriage was a huge, out-of-character mistake that damaged the character. Pete may have been "the marrying kind," but he chose not to because he understood his responsibilities. Before he was Spider-Man, others prevented him from having a typical high school life because they refused to let him be a part of things--an external force. Once Pete became Spidey, he gave up his normal life, an internal thing. He tried to get it back on occasion, largely by giving up his powers. Others may certainly disagree, I respect that. But, bottom line, is that I like the new direction of the character and I like the fact Pete's single. He never should have married. It was a bizarre way to end the marriage on Marvel's part, but I suppose one can argue that it adds complexity to the character. Pete's never been perfect. He's tried to do the right thing, as best as he could, and sometimes failed. Maybe he didn't do the right thing by saving May, but he did what he believed to BE the right thing. And he made a substantial personal sacrifice to DO what he believed the right thing to be. To me, that's the very definition of a "hero."

 

[moraldeficiency]

The writing in the 9/11 issue was dreck. It's only remembered fondly because of the beautiful JRJr artwork and the fact it was done in tribute only a month after the tragedy. Good intentions, bad comic.

Your opinion, personally I cried. Good points though on how it was dreck.

What birthday issue? That's how memorable that was... Wait, are you talking about ASM#500? As far as anniversary issues go, it paled in comparison to ASM#400, ASM#300, ASM#200 and ASM#100. What monumental thing happened? There was a bunch of magic globbedy-glook happening in Times Square. Peter fought some demons and monsters (um okay... that's grounded) and then I forget, but for some reason he was seeing himself in the future wearing a really tacky, lame red leather jacket and going out like a pansy due to death-by-cop. Real heroic. Then he talked to his Uncle Ben for five minutes. Seen that before. Yawn.

Pete saved the whole universe, established an important tie with doctor strange, continued his ties as an opponent of mephisto, found out that the FF and avengers had so much respect they would just believe him at his word on something ludicrious, refought all his greatest challenges, had the choice to save ben, gwen and such by not becoming spider-man, saw his own death by cops with ray guns (which isn't nearly as bad as a few patrol men tagging him in Character Assassination that masterpiece you love so) and future tech, and got to talk to uncle ben from beyond the grave but other than that not so much.

As for Avengers... I've always hated the fact that Peter, the quintessential loner, joined a team. It sorta felt like copy-catting Batman joining the JLA. Spider-Man just does not belong on the Avengers in any capacity. And didn't that arc start in the ashes of Peter's former Forest Hills home? That's really purist. So you're all for a magic-infused, team-playing Spidey? Like I said... a true purist! t:

I'd agree he shouldn't be on the team but if he was (cause bendis commanded it) this was how pete makes a good avenger while still being a loner. Contrast this with him in NA and you should get the idea. The magic thing was up in the air, and that arc took a concept I hated and made me see some potential. Pete's still an avenger btw, so what the hell?

If those were the best JMS stories you could cite... wow. Well, thank goodness, he's gone.

Well it's not the literary gold we've gotten since OMD "drrrruuuuugggggsssss!!!!". And JMS is clearly a hack writer as his success has clearly demonstrated. Isn't thor the worst? and the twelve? What a horrible story.

Because that's never happened..... Oh, hello, Morlun.

uh, hasn't pete killed morlun twice? Yeah, you're not even remotely close on this.

The fact his weakest stuff to date was miles better than JMS's best stuff during his last year says a lot.

You have no points only hate here. At least my hate is backed up by logic, you just say that was crap but then use the same arguments as to why those stories were terrible to show how BND is great.

Why would Ben get married when the whole point was replacing Peter with a "single Spider-Man"? The suits would not sign off on that, knowing the trouble it took to get there.

I don't know. You were the one that started commenting on hypotheticals of hypotheticals. And they've singlified pete plenty of times in the past only to bring the marriage back so how did that happen with your suits theory?

Zzzzzzzz.... more of the same. You're looking at things from a continuity perspective... "OMG!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE PETER MADE THAT DEAL WITH THE DEVIL AND DUMPED MJ... THAT ONE TIME TWO YEARS AGO!!!!" Marvel is looking at it from a present-day perspective.... "We now have a single Peter and that makes him available to tell more stories." The Reilly situation and the married Peter situation were also present-day conundrums. Anything that happened in OMD on the other hand is firmly in the past and staying there.

No, I'm looking at things from a character prospective. And yes, I'll always be like this with my favorite character. Peter Parker used to inspire me to do the right thing (and I'm a real ******* so that's a good thing) but even in my most evil moments right now I'm far more of a hero than spider-man, and that really sucks.

So far I've seen nothing that necessitates OMD in BND.

This is like saying if spider-man raped a bunch of small children five years ago it has no bearing on the current tales. How do you get your mind to do that?

You know, writers, artists and editors work hard to produce that product, so paying customers can enjoy their stories and that money can then go to support their families. They don't do it, so fanboys who skim it in stores and don't pay for it can deride it later on internet forums. Reading an issue in the store and deciding whether it's something you want to buy or not, is okay, but it seems like you never have any intention of buying BND and are just reading it for free so you can come up with some talking-points later. But that's a topic for another thread.

Really that's how that works? I had no idea. I give marvel plenty of money and give away my comics to neighborhood kids getting an actual new generation of readers involved in comics rather than storing my stash like a deranged hermit, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say even though I'm a major boycotter of spider-man I probably do more for the company overall then you do by plunking down money for someone who doesn't resemble a hero. In fact I'm trying to help marvel by vocally and financially protesting a major mistake which will eventually alienate fans the same way the clone saga did. And if the guy at the store doesn't mind, why is it your concern?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well, Moral Deficiency, perhaps if you read the post, you'd undestand it. And you don't need my blinders, as yours seem to work perfectly well. Look, it's clear people have strong opinions on this. The dude who responded to my post didn't get my point (btw, of course they were both false analogies, thats what I was trying, poorly, to show). The bottom line with all of this is if you felt like Pete made the WRONG decision, you don't like what happened and will marshall arguments on its behalf. But, similarly, you can view Pete's decision as an heroic sacrifice as well. I don't think you can dismiss that argument any more than you can dismiss the arguments folks make saying Pete's choice condemned him to eternal damnation and forever destroyed the character. Multiple views exist on this subject. Reasonable people can disagree about it. I happen to think the marriage was a huge, out-of-character mistake that damaged the character. Pete may have been "the marrying kind," but he chose not to because he understood his responsibilities. Before he was Spider-Man, others prevented him from having a typical high school life because they refused to let him be a part of things--an external force. Once Pete became Spidey, he gave up his normal life, an internal thing. He tried to get it back on occasion, largely by giving up his powers. Others may certainly disagree, I respect that. But, bottom line, is that I like the new direction of the character and I like the fact Pete's single. He never should have married. It was a bizarre way to end the marriage on Marvel's part, but I suppose one can argue that it adds complexity to the character. Pete's never been perfect. He's tried to do the right thing, as best as he could, and sometimes failed. Maybe he didn't do the right thing by saving May, but he did what he believed to BE the right thing. And he made a substantial personal sacrifice to DO what he believed the right thing to be. To me, that's the very definition of a "hero."

Here's the thing I established pete was smart, had known people with bad devil deals (both ghost riders and demogoblin come to mind immediately), actually was told by god it was may's time, was told by may she wanted to die, and still went against all that to side with satan and you're comments on most of those points were "yeah, so?" which just doesn't fly. I'm happy to see the other side of the argument but you've got to show it to me. The marriage stuff I see what you're saying and while I don't agree it wouldn't bother me much either way, married or single, as long as Peter Parker stays Peter Parker. When god and the person dying tell you to let them die, they're happy and at peace, and you decide to use the powers of hell to force them to live you're just way off anything nearly heroic. Being heroic isn't doing everything to save a life, if that was true peter parker would be a cold blooded killer and would have taken out many villians because that would save future victims, being heroic is putting your personal feelings aside (I really want my aunt to live) for someone else (may wanted to die and be with god and ben and knew it was her time). If may knew what pete did she would either die of a heart attack or never speak to him again.

I just want spider-man to be a hero, I'm not asking for much. No deals with the devil to help him beat god would be a good measuring stick for just a standard persons morals let alone a hero.