Lee Bermejo and Brian Azzarello's Joker Graphic Novel

it would seem lazy in this sense: forgoing a reinterpretation of the Joker that still keeps the core dynamics of the character, maintaining a balancing act between your own take and the essential aspects of the character, to instead just have him commit "dark and disturbing" acts that, while dark and disturbing, don't fit very well with the Joker character. Like say rape or bursting out in tears . . . They have the Joker do those things, and because they did it first, they can be heralded as innovators, even if it is too far removed from the core character. I'm not saying that's what's happened, but that's definitely possible when you reinvent or reinterpret something so many times. You can eventually dilute the original qualities that made the character popular in the first place.
This is similar to what i meant Crook, thanks for posting that EmPiiRe x.

I haven't read the book either Crook asnd I reckon i'll like it, maybe even love it probably. My point is not that rape or violence is out of place in a comic book at all, but that sometimes it can be used as Get Out Writer's Block Free Card when a writer has no idea how to make a villain threatening other than turning the uber-violence meter up to 10. To me this does seem out-of-character for the Joker, i'll always be of the opinion that no matter what way he becomes, the Joker is always the most fascinating as not a violent, raping criminal, but as a charismatic, smooth talking and genuinely funny madman who is made all the more scary by the fatal punchline.

Another point is that it takes away from the core of what makes the Joker unique. In this book from what I've heard and read he is a gangster, a rapist, uber violent and not really that classy or witty. By making him so violent he does become real yes, but he also becomes Zsasz to me: A boring villain who can make me vomit in disgust every panel, but still won't merit my interest as a character.

Again I say though, I think I really will like this book and most likely buy it, but I will always remain of the opinion that shock value is something that must be earned, not thrown at the reader in the form of standard bloody violence in order to make us see the Joker as a sick guy.
 
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Please elaborate on how rape violates the core of Joker's character.

im pretty sure he never said that.

it would seem lazy in this sense: forgoing a reinterpretation of the Joker that still keeps the core dynamics of the character, maintaining a balancing act between your own take and the essential aspects of the character, to instead just have him commit "dark and disturbing" acts that, while dark and disturbing, don't fit very well with the Joker character. Like say rape or bursting out in tears . . . They have the Joker do those things, and because they did it first, they can be heralded as innovators, even if it is too far removed from the core character. I'm not saying that's what's happened, but that's definitely possible when you reinvent or reinterpret something so many times. You can eventually dilute the original qualities that made the character popular in the first place.

just sayin'
 
it would seem lazy in this sense: forgoing a reinterpretation of the Joker that still keeps the core dynamics of the character, maintaining a balancing act between your own take and the essential aspects of the character, to instead just have him commit "dark and disturbing" acts that, while dark and disturbing, don't fit very well with the Joker character. Like say rape or bursting out in tears . . . They have the Joker do those things, and because they did it first, they can be heralded as innovators, even if it is too far removed from the core character. I'm not saying that's what's happened, but that's definitely possible when you reinvent or reinterpret something so many times. You can eventually dilute the original qualities that made the character popular in the first place.
Surely I'm not assuming too much.
 
I've yet to read the book (it's not out where I live yet), and that's why I'm withholding my opinion on whether or not it crosses that threshold that I talked about (diluting a character's core strengths), but it's not hard to imagine how something like a rape scene could be mishandled to go against what we all know and love about a character. Again, when I say things like that I'm just fleshing out a possibility, not necessarily saying it's happened in this book. A rape scene or busting out into a tearful tirade do not necessarily strike you as "Oh, that's something I could very easily see the Joker doing", but in the right hands, and I have faith that Azzarello is just that because I'm about to shell out $20.00 to find out, those things can be handled in a way that makes you say, "Hurm, I can see Joker doing that."
 
I haven't read the book either. I'm just asking, hypothetically speaking, if Joker were to actually rape someone, why would that be out-of-character? Specifically how does that betray what he represents?
 
"Rape", in this context, is a neutral act. Certainly not out of it . . .

A rape scene could occur in a way that reinforces Joker's core pathos, and just as easily occur in a way that strikes you as "Yeah, they just did that for shock value. That doesn't feed into or play off of any of the Joker's character aspects."

Admittedly, when I first heard 'there's a rape scene', I definitely suspected the latter, but all the great reviews it's getting definitely makes me the think the former is more likely.
 
wait a second? neither of you have read the book?

i will say this. the way it goes down in the book did not strike me as out of character. and its not exactly rape in the way you might think either. and it the violence wasnt for shock value alone.

but you really should read the thing first...
 
That's what I'm hoping; I was just mulling over the possibility of the opposite, that the violence would not come out of the story, but just be thrown in their to make the authors seem "edgy and innovative"
 
Ah ok, then we're on the same page. Though I will add that the addition of gory acts of mischief and violence, for the sake of it, aren't exclusive to any single thing. Like rape.
 
any one got images of the villains fromthe book?
 
I love that someone had the balls to do it! I actually sat down with my friend and we both read them at the same time. He reads much fast than me, so he was done with it like 20 mins before I was. When I got to the rape part I just gasped and was like "He just raped that betch!" and somehow that completely skipped over my friends head that he was zipping up and her panties were off and all disheveled. I'm glad everyone else caught it, because what was obvious to me I'm not sure it was to others.

Also, what an awesome was of putting things, Motown: "he felt jonny took advantage of their relationship, he raped the faith that joker put in their relationship, so in turn the joker raped a relationship that jonny had some faith in."

Well, I mean... I get it. It just kind of tripped me up, I guess. I was surprised. No one's ever shown him in that kind of light before, and it does make sense. I guess it works because it's shocking.
 
The rape wasn't just there to horrify. He raped Jonny's ex missus because Joker felt Jonny raped his trust. He even says when he has finished the dreadful deed. "That makes us even right" Basically Joker is evening up the score with Jonny. I ain't gonna say what Jonny did, wait till you read it.

As for some scans of villains I posted a couple 2 pages back, they are in spoiler tags. One has Batman and Two-Face on it, but I chose one where you can't clearly see them. And the other has Joker, Jonny Frost and Croc on it.
 
Initial impressions, based on a reading after midnight that kept me awake:

I like this a lot. It doesn't have the elegance, perception, coherence and depth of TDK, or the humane complexity and moral balance and perfectly constructed narrative of TKJ, or the ambitious mythology of Arkham Asylum, but it is coherent, startling, kinetic, and gorgeously realized as both a visual narrative and a text. The similarities to several aspects of TDK are really quite astonishing but I think it's simply that both stories went to the same well of inspiration: the question of what if these were plausible characters in our world, a world without superpowers or superheroes? And it remains sufficiently vague on a number of points that those who'd like to see it as part of other areas in the Batman universe might do so as well.

I remember several posts back someone pointing out the similarity between the realization of Harley Quinn (and this is the first story where I really liked and appreciated HQ: she served a real purpose) and some fan art he'd done rethinking the character. I was struck by similarities to my own fan story, especially in the notion of an under-underworld where it seems ordinary extensions of law or government just don't/can't reach, and the triad of the Joker, the Joker's girlfriend, and the driver (although my story is set considerably earlier in the Joker's career, and the driver is a quite different sort of guy, a restless drifter who was in the army and saw active combat, then travelled extensively, worked for a mobster in Hong Kong, did ninja training in Japan, and who is deeply in love with the girlfriend character). But again, it's the issue of the same well, the same sorts of questions. (Disclaimer: no part of my story has ever been published online, and I have the notebooks, with dated entries, to prove I started the first version of it at least 18 years ago, then abandoned it for 17 years.)

I like Jonny's perspective: it's probably the only perspective in this universe that's "relatable" to the ordinary reader, but as in the Harry Potter books, it fills me with a sort of wistful longing for the more daring forays into the perspectives of less relatable characters, but then, the drawn expressions and actions help there.

I LOVE the treatment of Batman. I think it's quite right he's not a character in this so much as a force, an entity. We see him as the underworld sees him. And we never really get a full shot of him; he retains mystery. Great boots; I seriously love those boots. His nemesis relationship with the Joker is firmly established: he cannot rid Gotham of the Joker any more than the Joker can rid Gotham of Batman: they keep each other in check.

On the whole I like the visual look of this. I think there is a conscious nod to the yellowy filter of the original KJ, which I actually like better than the recoloured anniversary edition: it suggested more the sickly nightmare perspective of a deranged mind. Here it suggests the nightmare world everyone dwells in. It's visceral; it LOOKS smelly, if that makes sense, and painful. And the characters on the whole have great personality. There's a sort of timelessness in its collision of classic noir movies of the 1940s/50s and the great crime films of the 1970s.

The narrative has a great premise but in trying to work in a laundry list of famous villains (I wonder if this would have worked better as an extended series?) the surface to depth proportion suffers, and while the gaps might be there deliberately, I found myself curious about how long the Joker had been in Arkham, plus a lot of other little background details (i.e. to what extent does this stick to canon; to what extent does it depart?).

My favourite bit, apart from the arrival of Batman at the end which is just perfectly realized, well done, is a quiet little one, the part where Jonny is wandering through the apartment reminiscing, and ends up spying on the Joker and Harley, where the Joker is fully dressed except for his trenchcoat, and is on his knees with his arms around her waist, surrounded by pills. It's so telling that she's standing there looking sort of bemused, hands both occupied by her cigarette and her champagne glass; she's not stroking his hair or making any sort of affectionate gesture and he seems to be crying. I read this as suggesting that maybe one part of their reunion hasn't really worked out, maybe because of all his years on heavy medication. But maybe that's just because I'm a girl.

Anyway, well satisfied: 8/10.

great review.

Ya see I am the complete opposite, this is exactly what I want with a Batman series. I really like the dialogue because it is stuff I actually have heard in real life. I found it hardly cliche or even trite. It reminded me very close of Blue Velvet where the naive reader is tagging along with a wild mad man. The rape hint also made sense because as someone else said on here "Johnny raped Joker's trust so Joker raped Joker's ex" . The Dini comics are what I consider cliche and trite with predictable story lines. (my prediction of Hush wink wink) The story was pretty predictable though, however it is the direction I love.

agreed captain...:up:
 
I actually liked the crying scene. For one thing it showed that he is a human and an incredibly complicated and ****ed up one at that.

More importantly though, it showed that he's just as codependent of Harley as she is of him.

In past iterations, it has always come off that the Joker is just using Harley. That's all fine and dandy, but I never understood how she could last so long around him, given that kind of relationship.

The tears showed that he needs Harley just as much as she needs him.

Keep in mind that there are real life serial killer couples, and this portrayal of the Joker and Harley's relationship just came off as a lot more realistic to me than past iterations.
 
Yea, just imagen how awesome a twisted, morbid romantic film would be with Joker and Harley. Sorta like Natural Born Killers.
 
The more i think about it, the more i let it sink in, the more i think that this is a great book. All the elements are perfect. It's grim, realistic and FILTHY. It's how Gotham should be, and shows an interesting way to write characters that don't scream "COMIC BOOOOOOK!". The Joker is sick. And because of that, there's an uneasiness about the whole book. It's so tense, because you never know how he's gonna react to anything. Bermejo's art only heightens this. The man REALLY needs to be a regular artist on Batman.

This book brings us one step closer to possibly seeing Bendis and Brubaker on Batman. Their Daredevil stories are excellent, and where not as extreme as this graphic novel, it very well could be, or could be its own brand of gritty. There's New York, and then there's Gotham. That said, Bendis and/or Brubaker with Alex Maleev, Michael Lark or Lee Bermejo would be AMAZING. But i digress.

This book was phenomenal. It's not without its faults, but it's still a great book.

The reason why Bendis and Brubaker's runs on Daredevil are unique and great is because it focuses more on Matt Murdock than Daredevil and we get to know more about him as a lawyer than him running on rooftops at night. It was realistic and gritty because Bendis wrote Matt as a human being who will mess up from time to time, showed New York as it is, a depressing and scary place, and Maleev's art is something you won't see on Cartoon Network. It would be awesome to see Bendis and Maleev, or Brubaker and Lark team up and do a Batman run or mini-series that shows an urban and scary Gotham with realistic and interesting characters, I'd be on board, but the last 80+ issues of Daredevil would always remain superior.
 
I never even noticed that The Joker raped Johnny's ex-wife. I guess a reread is in order...
 
I never even noticed that The Joker raped Johnny's ex-wife. I guess a reread is in order...

Me neither but just look at Joker's pants (hes putting the belt back on) and you can see on the car Jonny's ex's panties so yeah.
 
Dirty bastard. This seems to me at least, the first time someone has written Joker as an unlikeable character. Yea he's always been a killer and all that, but he has always been charming and likeable, but not in this. A good way to approach it IMO.
 
The rape wasn't just there to horrify. He raped Jonny's ex missus because Joker felt Jonny raped his trust. He even says when he has finished the dreadful deed. "That makes us even right" Basically Joker is evening up the score with Jonny. I ain't gonna say what Jonny did, wait till you read it.

As for some scans of villains I posted a couple 2 pages back, they are in spoiler tags. One has Batman and Two-Face on it, but I chose one where you can't clearly see them. And the other has Joker, Jonny Frost and Croc on it.

Well, yeah, I get that. I know he was doing it to **** with Jonny, not because he had to get his rocks off or anything. But that doesn't mean it wasn't sort of shocking.
 
Lmao, I'm trying not to read any spoilers but it's tough. Joker raped his gal just to mess him up, not because he wanted pleasure out of it himself.

OWNED JONNY
 
The reason why Bendis and Brubaker's runs on Daredevil are unique and great is because it focuses more on Matt Murdock than Daredevil and we get to know more about him as a lawyer than him running on rooftops at night. It was realistic and gritty because Bendis wrote Matt as a human being who will mess up from time to time, showed New York as it is, a depressing and scary place, and Maleev's art is something you won't see on Cartoon Network. It would be awesome to see Bendis and Maleev, or Brubaker and Lark team up and do a Batman run or mini-series that shows an urban and scary Gotham with realistic and interesting characters, I'd be on board, but the last 80+ issues of Daredevil would always remain superior.
you know brubaker already did a massive run on batman and wrote "the man who laughs" right?
 
you know brubaker already did a massive run on batman and wrote "the man who laughs" right?


Yes, don't forget he also did Bruce Wayne: Murderer?, and Fugitive vol.1-3. All of his books are decent at best, IMO.
 

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