Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[MadVillainy]

Or just end with Cap not showing up at all and Bucky realizing with a smile what he did. He tells Hulk and Sam not to worry about it and slowly they realize what he did.

 

[Detective Conan]

Agreed. It left me kinda "meh".

I was like,"why did they give Joe Biden a cameo in Marvel movie" until I realized it was actually Steve who now physically has aged.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Okay, how about this...

- "Our" Captain America (let's call him Cap A) went into the past to live with Peggy Carter. However, this didn't change "our" past (because that's not possible) - instead, Cap A lives in a different time line (time line B) with Peggy B.
- The Captain America who appears at the end of the film as an old man on the bench isn't Cap A (because that isn't possible). It is Cap B from time line B who had the same idea as Cap A - travel into the past and live with Peggy. He entered time line A to live with Peggy A.
- That doesn't change our time line A, because Cap B was always there. He was always living with Peggy, he was her unidentifiend husband.

Does this make sense?

 

[samsnee]

I thought it was supposed to look like Clint Eastwood

 

[Mutant 77]

- That doesn't change our time line A, because Cap B was always there. He was always living with Peggy, he was her unidentifiend husband.

Does this make sense?

Nice try, but no... not possible. The predestination paradox/time loop model can't co-exist with the branching timelines one.
It doesn't matter which Captain America we take, we can't LOL.

 

[C. Lee]

Nothing in the previous MCU movies named who Peggy Carter married (or spent her life with). We have no proof that she ever actually married anyone. She says in the newsreel that she married one of the men he saved on the raid that rescued Bucky and the hundreds of other soldiers....but if she was working with Cap to keep his being out of the ice a secret, then that is an acceptable and understandable lie.

My theory. Cap went back in time....he met up with Peggy, he told her what was happening, they agreed to stay together but be quiet about it (because he knew there was no record of who she spent her life with, she could simply say she kept his name out of the records to protect him because of her position, and there was no record of Cap being alive until 2012). They lived a quiet life together. Cap continued living a quiet life under an assumed name after Peggy died. He knew the date that he was sent back in time by Banner...so he simply showed up there at that time and sat on the bench. And for those wondering where he got his shield....Peggy as head of SSR could easily get Howard Stark (or another scientist) to make another one for one reason or another, then take it home.

I've seen some people say that Cap wouldn't live the quiet life not being Cap and let Bucky be tortured or Hydra to grow in SHIELD. He and the other Avengers just traveled all over time doing things with the absolute belief that they CAN NOT change the future. So knowing that the future can't be changed....there is no reason to attempt to change the future.

 

[eon001]

One thing i dont get. Are the resurrected Avengers still the same age as when they died or have they somehow aged 5 years "whilst dead".

So Peter Parker in homecoming is gonna be 5 years younger than Ned who wasnt dusted?

Yea that's a question I saw on movie review. That's always been a problem with the MCU. Not all film makers are on the same page.

I have major problems with Steve just merrily living out his life in the past with Peggy, knowing Bucky is being brainwashed and tortured, SHIELD is being infiltrated by HYDRA, etc., and doing nothing about any of it.

Completely OOC.

As much as I enjoyed this movie, the time travel plot holes have already got my head spinning. I tend to just "go with it". Look forward to seeing the video essay's break this down.

 

[shabadoo25]

I think the conversation about your past is your future and your future is your present was a dodge.

The writers are saying time is like a soup and splashing around in it doesn’t affect much.

 

[Legendver2]

Now I want a new film. Captain America: The Basement Years.

Fifty Shades of America's Ass.

But wouldn't he return to the same spot on the machine? That's what happen with everybody else right?

They already broke that rule midway through the movie when Steve and Tony went to the 70's with only their watch and no machine. We can then reasonable say that old man Steve probably did the same to go back to prime timeline.

On that note though, why does everyone assume Peggy was married when Steve went back. He could have gone back before she moved on and married someone else. This just creates a new branching timeline where she marries Steve instead, but she would still have went through her unchanged life in prime timeline. It would just be a different version of her life, so it's not like Steve's a jerk, there's already a different version of history where Peggy already marries her prime timeline husband.

 

[FunkMiller]

Honestly unless you're whole story is going to revolve around time travel like Edge of Tomorrow, Terminator, Back to the Future, Looper then you should probably just leave time travel alone. It creates way more questions like Harry Potter 3 and this

You’re not wrong! My head hurts just reading through this thread!

When it became clear that the whole plot of Endgame would revolve around time travel, I have to confess I groaned... for precisely the reasons you mention here. If you’re entire premise isn’t about the time travel, and you’re just using it to solve plot issues, then things generally tend to get a bit sloppy.

But, as I’ve already said, I think the Russos were probably comfortable with the idea that some of the plot wouldn’t make sense, and they sacrificed a little logic for the right emotional beats, like Steve’s ending.

Can’t really say they were wrong to do that, can we!

 

[nypinta]

I'll go back and try to read this entire thread but I have basically decided that they all exist in Steve's universe now because his past is their present and according to Banner-Hulk, you can't change your own past. Steve didn't exist the first time around in 1946 and on, she can change that, like marry Peggy, but he can't change what already happened to him. That stuff becomes, to borrow from Doctor Who, fixed points.

 

[drmick]

Nothing in the previous MCU movies named who Peggy Carter married (or spent her life with). We have no proof that she ever actually married anyone. She says in the newsreel that she married one of the men he saved on the raid that rescued Bucky and the hundreds of other soldiers....but if she was working with Cap to keep his being out of the ice a secret, then that is an acceptable and understandable lie.

My theory. Cap went back in time....he met up with Peggy, he told her what was happening, they agreed to stay together but be quiet about it (because he knew there was no record of who she spent her life with, she could simply say she kept his name out of the records to protect him because of her position, and there was no record of Cap being alive until 2012). They lived a quiet life together. Cap continued living a quiet life under an assumed name after Peggy died. He knew the date that he was sent back in time by Banner...so he simply showed up there at that time and sat on the bench. And for those wondering where he got his shield....Peggy as head of SSR could easily get Howard Stark (or another scientist) to make another one for one reason or another, then take it home.

I've seen some people say that Cap wouldn't live the quiet life not being Cap and let Bucky be tortured or Hydra to grow in SHIELD. He and the other Avengers just traveled all over time doing things with the absolute belief that they CAN NOT change the future. So knowing that the future can't be changed....there is no reason to attempt to change the future.

But he could change his present i.e. the 40s, 50s, 60s etc with impunity.

 

[Limonade]

You’re not wrong! My head hurts just reading through this thread!

When it became clear that the whole plot of Endgame would revolve around time travel, I have to confess I groaned... for precisely the reasons you mention here. If you’re entire premise isn’t about the time travel, and you’re just using it to solve plot issues, then things generally tend to get a bit sloppy.

But, as I’ve already said, I think the Russos were probably comfortable with the idea that some of the plot wouldn’t make sense, and they sacrificed a little logic for the right emotional beats, like Steve’s ending.

Can’t really say they were wrong to do that, can we!

Same.

I'm generally wary of time travel stories especially when it revolves around franchises... because it muddies the waters and can cause much bigger continuity issues where the writers/producers can just write off as "movie logic".

As an audience member it'll be harder to follow simply because there would be too many questions and not enough answers to satisfy them all.

 

[legendkillin]

I was like,"why did they give Joe Biden a cameo in Marvel movie" until I realized it was actually Steve who now physically has aged.

I knew it was Steve, then realized it was also Evans aged up. At least it looked like Evans a bit.

At first when they showed the back shot I thought he was his original skinny form.

 

[ciscostudent561]

At first when they showed the back shot I thought he was his original skinny form.

lol me too

 

[Prettyricky]

As time travel movies go this was a bit sloppy in that territory for a number of reasons:

-Pulling the stones from the three points of time should have caused major outcomes when they returned to the present.

- nebula killing her younger self should have erased her right there.

- steve returning the stones all to the 3 points in history would still lead to the snap bu thanos. Unless the 2014 thanos willingly traveling to 2019 to attack the avengers base covers for at-least that point in time.

I go back to that episode of the flash where Jay Garrick explains to Barry the ramifications of changing time by cracking the coffee cup and trying to make it like it was

 

[OroroGambitFan]

As time travel movies go this was a bit sloppy in that territory for a number of reasons:

-Pulling the stones from the three points of time should have caused major outcomes when they returned to the present.

- nebula killing her younger self should have erased her right there.

- steve returning the stones all to the 3 points in history would still lead to the snap bu thanos. Unless the 2014 thanos willingly traveling to 2019 to attack the avengers base covers for at-least that point in time.

I go back to that episode of the flash where Jay Garrick explains to Barry the ramifications of changing time by cracking the coffee cup and trying to make it like it was

Its funny but a lot of what ur saying "should happen" scientist actually say the opposite. I think we've become accustomed to time travel rules happening a certain way from TV shows and other movies that it might be hard to grasps new concepts.

Dont get me wrong they were sloppy in some bits but in other ways they were quite clever.

The part about things being different was explained by the movie and their established rules. First and foremost u CANNOT change things in ur current timeline by going back in the past...its unchangeable! Okay so that's the main thing u have to realize--

Now if u go back and alter things then what'll happen is that reality will splinter off into a brand new reality. So Locki goes off and loves and things are way different in that reality as a result but in the original reality those new set event dont alter or change anything in present day.

I never heard it explained that way but my boyfriend who is way into that stuff says that scientist theorize it that way in real life and not the way we see it dipicted most of the time

 

[legendkillin]

As time travel movies go this was a bit sloppy in that territory for a number of reasons:

-Pulling the stones from the three points of time should have caused major outcomes when they returned to the present.

- nebula killing her younger self should have erased her right there.

- steve returning the stones all to the 3 points in history would still lead to the snap bu thanos. Unless the 2014 thanos willingly traveling to 2019 to attack the avengers base covers for at-least that point in time.

I go back to that episode of the flash where Jay Garrick explains to Barry the ramifications of changing time by cracking the coffee cup and trying to make it like it was

Its funny but a lot of what ur saying "should happen" scientist actually say the opposite. I think we've become accustomed to time travel rules happening a certain way from TV shows and other movies that it might be hard to grasps new concepts.

Dont get me wrong they were sloppy in some bits but in other ways they were quite clever.

The part about things being different was explained by the movie and their established rules. First and foremost u CANNOT change things in ur current timeline by going back in the past...its unchangeable! Okay so that's the main thing u have to realize--

Now if u go back and alter things then what'll happen is that reality will splinter off into a brand new reality. So Locki goes off and loves and things are way different in that reality as a result but in the original reality those new set event dont alter or change anything in present day.

I never heard it explained that way but my boyfriend who is way into that stuff says that scientist theorize it that way in real life and not the way we see it dipicted most of the time

Thing is time travel is not real so it is an idea that people can have a different view on. No concrete evidence of what actually would happen.
If someone is dead in the future and gets saved in the past, that would not mean they come back to life. Another reality can be created and once you go back to the original time they are still dead. That would also apply to Nebula that Nebula is dead in that old timeline which is now another reality. It does not mean she should vanish. It would also mean Xander was never attacked by for the Power stone but that planet is indeed dead and gone those people are not coming back.

 

[MrWayne]

I thought it was supposed to look like Clint Eastwood

So that wasn't a cameo??

 

[Crashorama]

When Steve goes back in time and hooks up with Peggy, isn’t there a Steve in that timeline already, meaning he stole his girlfriend from himself?

 

[samsnee]

I can buy Bruce’s theory that if you go to the past and die, it’s your future to be in the past. And I can even buy the Ancient One’s theory about branches splitting off. But once you return to your present, you should still see the effects of the past that you changed.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

So my whole other big question is does Sharon count as Steve’s family now?

Cap made out with his own granddaughter? Yuck.

 

[OroroGambitFan]

I can buy Bruce’s theory that if you go to the past and die, it’s your future to be in the past. And I can even buy the Ancient One’s theory about branches splitting off. But once you return to your present, you should still see the effects of the past that you changed.

Why? If they clearly state as a rule to time travel laws-- you CANT change what's already happened cuz it HAPPENED!

It's a rule that they state so u cant argue that, its their reality-- so in essence it's ours too (as a viewer). U can say u dont like that rule or u think its dumb but u cant say things should have been changed!! And the reason u can't say that is its what they lay down as a foundation for how it works in their world.

Like someone else said, its all theory so there isn't a proven truth one way or the other. And if that's the case then why is it so difficilt to play by the rules they establish? And on top of that, you have credible scientist giving credibility to it being a likely posibility, more probable than the traditional way of time travel.

 

[matt47]

Could it have been possible where Steve used the stones to create a reality for himself that didn't interfere with the timeline only to bring himself out of that reality at the point in time where his younger self went back? Just a thought.

that's exactly what I thought happened.

I hope we get loads of spoiler interviews with the russos.

 

[Mr.T]

I thought Steve jumped back to that moment at the end just to give Sam the shield. He was from an alternate timeline.

The thing that kinda bugs me is the scene with The Chosen One where they talk about the stones returning will eliminate branches. It’s obvious there are alternate timelines and universes created from what they did. For instance, the Loki jump with the tesseract. How the hell did that not change the future if indeed they are on a single line?

I Iove time travel movies and racking my brain over them. Endgame had some issues but it doesn’t take away from the story and emotional impact. Just amazing from start to finish!!!